no power

when in neutral does it rev quickly i.e. normally? no stumbling? How is your oil pressure? Could it have slipped time? I.E. spun the distributor gear a little?

It revs slower. No stumbling. It also idles lower by about 2 - 300 RPM. Oil pressure is very good. Timing is bang on. New dist. gear. It acts like it is an electrical problem. But in all this it still runs smoothly.

Is it possible that the magnetic pickup in the distributor is no good? Or the coil maybe not putting out enough? I just don't know enough about either one.

You could be describing three separate issues here. 1) depending on what starter is in there, Clevelands can act like FE big blocks and stress out the starter under normal hot starting conditions.

The original Ford starter for a Cleveland as a rebuild can be an issue in itself. Electric motors in general can wear out the winding and develop sensitivity to heat, which reduces the current through them.

I went through this issue and a few "rebuilds" that would all react similarly. Bottom line, it was the starter motor that was done on all of them. In this case I bought a new Accell starter and that one is still going strong. I suspect that you have a similar situation.

2) More and more balacers are slipping the outer rings where they mount to the inner hubs. They are just glued together and the glue looses its grip after 40 years or so. There often is no sign visually that this has happened. It could have slipped as much as 45 degrees. The balancer can be rebuilt.

3) MSD ignition product issues are LEGENDARY and still haunted by phenomenons. Why people continue to by their crap is beyond me? Mabe people expect contingency money from MSD?

In general, if the ignition is firing, and there are issues like no crispness to the accelerator, it could be that the mechanical advance springs in the distributor are stretched out and as a result there is no mechanical advance going on in the distributor?

Aftermarket distributors unfortunately in general do have the reputation to do this. They use the lightest springs available and the thin wire of the springs looses its tension quickly.

I had this happen to a Accell distributor and it was a real head scratchier to find. It's an easy fix though, once you find it.

The Ford distribuotrs use one heavy spring and one medium spring in theirs. Never saw this happen in an original Ford distributor.

Work on the distributor first. Then the starter. If the gremlins all go away with a solution, leave the balancer to last.

If it were me I would advance the timing regardless of what the marks say and see what the effect is. If if runs better your numbers on your balancer are off.

MSD distributors come with a kit of springs and bushings depending on the rate of advance you need. If the springs would have lost their tension the engine would advance too quickly and therefor should not be lazy. It would most likely detonate. In this case the engine sounds like its lazy indicating a retarded timing. Am I off base here.

What do you think Doug?

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
If it were me I would advance the timing regardless of what the marks say and see what the effect is. If if runs better your numbers on your balancer are off.

MSD distributors come with a kit of springs and bushings depending on the rate of advance you need. If the springs would have lost their tension the engine would advance too quickly and therefor should not be lazy. It would most likely detonate. In this case the engine sounds like its lazy indicating a retarded timing. Am I off base here.

What do you think Doug?

Well advance springs normally operate by limiting the rate of mechanical advance. If MSD does it in reverse thEN they may have re-invented the mechanical advance? The heavier or thicker the springs are, the more load is required to stretch them out. That's what the weights are there for.

These distributors normally are supplied with the lightest ones installed, instructions and two more sets of springs. Guess where those springs and instructions wind up?

The normal scenario would be as follows: the buyer takes the distributor out of the box and installs it. Sets the timing, and away he goes.

Then in 1500 miles or so the car starts acting weird.

Owner takes out the timing light and "wow, this is screwy, timing is 30 something?" Then resets to 16. Now drives it. No pep. Maybe even backfires?

What has happened is that he just took out 24 degrees of mechanical advance. Well not really, the springs stretched to the point of falling off the dowels is what caused it.

There are no distributors that do not work this way with advance weights and springs that I ever heard of? Some distributors are made for reliability. Ford for instance is. Aftermarket, well dependability? I don't know about that but billet glitz? Sure.

Don't worry though. MSD tech already asked me to buy another product and leave them the f... alone. I agreed. I use Ford ignition exclusively. Still waiting for the first failure. Acell ain't much to write home about either.



Actually this is not something that is exclusive to MSD or any one particular make. Any distributor that uses the weakest springs will eventually have issues with the advance. In all fairness, they are mostly limited to racing because of the fuel octane issue associated with an advance all in by 2,000 rpm with a high compression engine. At 8.0:1, you probably can get away with an advance that is all in by 2,000 rpm with just premium pump gas? You will not on even a 10:1 engine unless you run 106 leaded.



As far as playing with the distributor to see if it helps regardless of what the timing mark indicates, try it, but if it's the distributor mechanical advance, it won't mean anything but a waste of time and you will need to take care of that first.

George Pence here has been cautioning the balancer slipping issue for some time. It's been seen on other Ford engines too. I've heard of some 289 HP balancers being out of whack as well.

Doug, I agree with you about the balancer slipping. If that is the cause the timing would be retarded and the engine would be lazy just as the OP described. BTW the MSD has stops in place so that it does not advance further than a set point. The MSD distributor work like any other the springs regulate the rate in which the advance is brought on. (advance curve) thin is if the springs get weak it would simply advance too early and the car would detonate. Yes I also agree that if one did not know this he/she would simply re-adjust the timing and away they go. This is why I suggested to the OP forget the timing light and advance the timing and see what happens. If the car runs better then one can deduce that most likely the balancer slipped.

Thanks guys. I have not yet checked the distributor (this weekend as I have no time during the week). I am trying to get as much info on this before the weekend. I have not adjusted the timing but will check it again this weekend and I will advance it without the light as Italford suggested. Doug - I have another starter I will also try - am I to believe that the starter can cause the engine not running properly or just not cranking properly? Both happened at the same time. Ran and started like a clock previous to that. Could it be the notorious MSD box (3 months old) that is acting up? It is a 6425 digital 6al. and all grounds are good and fresh. Could it be the magnetic pick up inside the distributor? I am led to believe that they either work or they don't - no in between. Would it have anything to do with the box not getting a full 12volts? Just wondering, although it is hooked up properly. As you can see, I am grabbing at straws. Just want to be prepared for anything when I take things apart.
Thanks,
Steve

don't to too may things at once or you may not find the exact problem. Do one thing and try. Do another then try. This way you will be able to pinpoint the problem hopefully.

BTW I run an MSD distributor and 6AL box on 4 of my cars. I have never had a problem. The oldest one is 15yrs old. (2) 302's (1) 351W and (1) 351C. I live in a very dry climate, keep my cars inside, and they are not daily drivers. Maybe that's why I haven't had any problems. Either way it works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:
Hi all,
My engine runs smooth, no misses, but has no power. Almost like it is running on less cylinders.

It happened all of a sudden.

How old is this engine ?

Could the timing chain be slack enough to have jumped a tooth ??

Running smooth, no missing but no power sounds like retarded camshaft timing.

If it did jump a tooth the change in the motor would take place instantly like flicking a switch.

Some motors would self destruct if this took place as pistons might hit valves but others may have just enough internal clearance to keep running (but poorly with no power)

It ran fine when I shut it off 2 weeks ago. Started it up after the 2 weeks and right away the problems started.

Steve I've witnessed timing chains slipping during "starting" a couple of times in my life. From that perspective, your problem sounds exactly like a possible slipped timing chain.

But ... when I've had to get a car with a slipped timing chain to run, we had to advance the distributor in order to get the engine to run. It ran as you described, smoothly but no power.

An engine with a slipped timing chain running smoothly without power, but also without advancing the distributor, is not my experience. But that doesn't mean its impossible.

One thing for sure, if the timing chain slipped a tooth, the engine would idle at a much lower rpm.

Just an idea for contemplation (and I welcome the discussion), but doesn't the distributor tend towards retarding the ignition timing if the roll pin is failing (and the gear slips), but hasn't completely released the gear from the shaft?

I had a case on my engine where the pin sheared, and the engine ran worse and worse, until it finally died.

I will say that I had occurrences of engine backfire through the carburetor.

But checking the distributor roll pin is easier than pulling off the timing cover.....

Rocky

I will pull the distributor and check the roll pin, but there was never any backfire and the engine does not seem to be running worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Rocky:


I had a case on my engine where the pin sheared, and the engine ran worse and worse, until it finally died.

I will say that I had occurrences of engine backfire through the carburetor.

But checking the distributor roll pin is easier than pulling off the timing cover.....

Rocky

Yes it's a good idea to check the distributor pin.

But you could get a idea of the valve timing if you remove the rocker cover for number 1 cylinder bank, turn the motor over to top dead centre on the exhaust stroke and observe where the overlap takes place by watching the rocker arms on number 1.

You should observe when both rocker arms are pushing the valves down the same amount, probably only about .050" open or so for both valves (exhaust will be on it's way up, inlet on it's way down) when they reach that point where they are both open evenly (overlap) the crank should be on TDC (or close to it).

If it overlaps noticeably after TDC somethings amiss and further investigation is in order !

Don't trust you harmonic balancer for TDC until you take Number 1 spark plug out and can confirm the balancer markings with the actual position of the piston. (Do this first !!)

If the idle rpm has remained the same, if you haven't needed to adjust the idle or the distributor, then I wouldn't "assume" its anything related to ignition timing (slipped timing chain or the roll pin) because retarding the ignition will result in lowering the idle speed (and intake manifold vacuum) every time.

One comment you made sounded as if the problem had come, cleared up on its own, and come back again. If that's the case, if the problem has been intermittent at least once, then I'd lean towards believing an ignition component is failing. Its very easy to pull a plug, lay it on the engine, and have somebody crank the engine while you watch the spark. A strong spark is a blue-ish color, a weak spark is an orange-ish color. You can't discern the colors in daylight, this is a test to be performed when its dark. Please don't hold the plug while performing this test.

I have also seen sticking advance mechanisms create intermittent ignition problems, reduced idle rpm, rough idling at stop lights, things like that. Turn the engine off, restart the engine, and the engine behaved normally again. This is one of the reasons I don't like Ford distributors.

If the engine is equipped with an EGR valve, that should also be high on your list of suspects.

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:

My engine runs smooth, no misses, but has no power.

Almost like it is running on less cylinders.

It happened all of a sudden.

It has MSD ignition, (dist., coil, 6AL2 box - all relatively new ).

After I shut it off it cranks over very slowly - like a dead battery.

The battery is new and is fully charged. After sitting for a little bit (5 mins) it cranks over fine, starts right up but still has no power.

When I shut it off again it does the same thing - cranks slowly.

It is charging. All grounds on the MSD are clean and good to the clean frame metalwork.

The coil is a blaster 3. All battery grounds are good.

The power cable from the battery to the starter solenoid (also new solenoid) is good as is the cable from the solenoid to the starter.

Good ground from the transaxle to the rear framework.


It revs slower. No stumbling.

It also idles lower by about 2 - 300 RPM.

Oil pressure is very good. Timing is bang on. New dist. gear.

It acts like it is an electrical problem.

But in all this it still runs smoothly.

At this stage anything is possible but from your description: runs smooth, no misses, no power, slower idle, happened all of a sudden, good electrical connections, newish distributor (thus advance mechanism), revs slower no stumbling, hard to crank when hot, cranks easy after 5 mins or so (gets a few minutes to cool) really does sound like retarded cam timing.

Timing chain jumping will make it run very smooth but with no get up and go.

Hard to crank after it's been running. If the timing chain jumped valve timing is retarded, the exhaust valve opens late so the piston tries to compress the exhaust gas on the exhaust stroke before the exhaust valve finally opens.

This will make cranking hard especially when it is hot. This strange change in starting behavior would occur concurrently with the change in the engine behavior.

A electrically bad ignition system should have no impact on cranking.


Ignition electrics/electronics failure may cause poor engine performance but usually does cause engine roughness through missfire. Also most ignition problems (with electronic boxes) cause the car to run perfectly or not at all.

Poor spark will produce poor engine performance but won't effect cranking. It will also causes black smoke from the exhaust (you don't mention black smoke)

Slow cranking caused by ignition is usually from to much ignition advance but your description sounds like the ignition is retarded. (Idles slower). The ignition will be retarded if the timing chain jumped retarding the camshaft.

Only thing is you say the timing (ignition) is bang on ? How do you Know this ? What was the timing ? When was it checked ?

Could it have been advanced far enough for the engine to still run if the timing chain jumped (retarding the cam and in turn the spark) ?


This is a facinating exercise in diagnosis, hard to do by remote control (on the internet) i will be keen to hear your findings. Good luck !

As I remember when I wired my MSD 6AL digital the instruction said to wire the 12vdc directly to the battery or starter solenoid. The solenoid is the obvious choice in the Pantera. If both the MSD and the starter are wired to the solenoid and both are having issues it would seem it is the common denominator. Just a thought.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
BTW I run an MSD distributor and 6AL box on 4 of my cars. I have never had a problem. The oldest one is 15yrs old. (2) 302's (1) 351W and (1) 351C. I live in a very dry climate, keep my cars inside, and they are not daily drivers. Maybe that's why I haven't had any problems. Either way it works for me.

The climate here is close to what they have in Houston, TX. The humidity is the main culpret rather than the heat.

There are times that when we are at over 90% humidity, if you open the garage door, the car will steam over, just like the beer mug you keep in the freezer.

I suspect that single weather condition contributes the most to the issues with MSD's?

Still, by comparison, I have had zero ignition failures on Ford electronic components. Can't say that for MSD.

I just started throwing them away rather than shipping them to ElPaso Texas for repairs.

That's all over now for me. MSD and I have come to an agreement and I have discovered probably the best ignition ever made. The Pantera-Electronics ignition. It fire fouled plugs and cleans them up.

Perfect for Webers. MSDs can't do that.

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve: It has MSD ignition, (dist., coil, 6AL2 box - all relatively new)

MSD has a querk about their color coding of leads & polarity depending upon application & combinations of other MSD products

they even specify that polarity shall be opposite for their own analog or digital boxes

I'd do a serious investigation whether you have all components wired properly, the result of having it wrong is either advanced or retarded ignition timing

http://www.msdignition.com/upl...etin_109_pickups.pdf

quote:

That's all over now for me. MSD and I have come to an agreement and I have discovered probably the best ignition ever made. The Pantera-Electronics ignition. It fire fouled plugs and cleans them up.

I too am a big fan of Pantera-Electronics products. I have installed most of them on my car. Unfortunately, when I built my car Jon did not have the ignition controller out yet. If it existed I most certainly would have bought it. It has better features than the MSD 6AL. I guess I could change it our if it either fails or I do a major service some day.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:

quote:

That's all over now for me. MSD and I have come to an agreement and I have discovered probably the best ignition ever made. The Pantera-Electronics ignition. It fire fouled plugs and cleans them up.

I too am a big fan of Pantera-Electronics products. I have installed most of them on my car. Unfortunately, when I built my car Jon did not have the ignition controller out yet. If it existed I most certainly would have bought it. It has better features than the MSD 6AL. I guess I could change it our if it either fails or I do a major service some day.

Keep in mind he designed it to fit exactly where the 6A does.

Go to the website and watch the video of it first firing a fouled plug, then cleaning it.

Know why MSD didn't post that video? BECAUSE IT CAN'T DO THAT! (just in case you didn't know)

That alone can chase a lot of gremlins out.

I checked the timing and it is 18 degrees advance. Hasn't moved. Could I be reading too much into this and it be something as simple as bad plugs or plug wires? Drove it around 25 miles today - same problems but no time to do anything other than check the timing. Came off the hiway to a red light and it idled down to about 200 rpm below what it usually is. Ran a bit rough (hesitating - really working) under acceleration but no misses or backfires. Still ran smooth up to speed but just slow. No backfires on deceleration either. No smoke any time. No unusual noises. When running - idling - it almost sounds like the mufflers are "sputtering" like they are plugged. It has that sort of feel. I know it all sounds a bit confusing - I certainly am. But clearly still feels like an electrical problem to me. Of course I'm usually wrong......

quote:

I checked the timing and it is 18 degrees advance. Hasn't moved.

How do you know this exactly?

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:
I checked the timing and it is 18 degrees advance.

Could I be reading too much into this and it be something as simple as bad plugs or plug wires?

When running - idling - it almost sounds like the mufflers are "sputtering" like they are plugged. It has that sort of feel.

Have you checked that the marks on the harmonic balancer are actually correct ?

Plugs and wires are worth checking too !

You'll need to check out everything.



That "sputtering" sound at idle, again if the valve timing is retarded it can make a sputtering or popping sound, the exhaust valve would be opening late, the piston would be rising trying to compress the exhaust gas, the valve opens releasing this higher than normal pressure gas producing a pop or "sputter". That sound may not be audible when the engine is going faster under load (too many other noises drown it out).

But all this remains to be seen.

You must make a extensive check and inspection of everything. Electrical, electronic, mechanical.
It may be one of those unusual cases when a number of different faults have come together producing baffling symptoms or symptoms of a completely different problem.

While you were at it did you check it the timing was advancing as the RPM increased?

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
While you were at it did you check it the timing was advancing as the RPM increased?

Does this ignition system advance the ignition the old fashioned way with centrifugal/vacuum mechanisms in the distributor or is it done electronically ?

I just had time to put a timing light on it and quickley check the timing at idle. I did not increase the RPM. It is where I timed it when I put in the distributor approx 3 months ago and I have driven the car extensively since with no problems. There is no popping sound from the exhaust, it just sounds like it is laboring. As I said before, I will get more into it on the weekend. More time then. No vacuum advance on the distributor.

Its frustrating to troubleshoot an engine problem via the internet.

At the moment I am asking myself why is the engine idling 200 rpm slower if the timing is "spot-on"? One bad cylinder could do that. Sputtering mufflers and running rough could be a lean condition, i.e. a fuel pump or carburetor problem, or a vacuum leak. A PCV valve that is stuck open will create a lean condition too. Pull the PCV valve and shake it, it should rattle. A misfiring spark plug or a valve problem will also create that symptom. If you connect a vacuum gage to the intake manifold, and the gage's needle is bouncing around or fluttering real fast, that indicates an intake valve issue. Valve issues can come-on "all of a sudden" as this problem has. Since you hear a "sputter" in the exhaust, perhaps its an exhaust valve issue.

If that's the case, I'd park the car and do some static troubleshooting. Perform a compression test AND a leak down test. Only if the vacuum test, compression test and leak down test look good would I feel safe to run the engine further. Why you ask? Because a valve that is not seating may indicate its head is in the process of cracking off the stem. $$$

Electrically you can visually inspect all 8 spark plugs. Perhaps one is fouled. You can measure the ignition wires with an ohm meter. The wire between the coil & the center of the distributor cap wears out faster than the others. Standard silicone ignition wires should measure in the range of 5KΩ to 20KΩ, depending upon the length. Sometimes one ignition wire will lay across a header primary, and get burned. Check the distributor cap & rotor too. The MSD module isn't out of the question either ... but the best way to troubleshoot the MSD module is with a replacement. If you don't have a spare, it wouldn't hurt to buy a spare and keep it in the car "just in case", and use it for troubleshooting too. I've heard through the grapevine that MSD moved the manufacture of its coils to China a couple of years ago, and that coil problems have become an issue for them.

simple test for a miss is a laser temp gun , checking individual header tubes @6-8'' from port.... temps should be within 50-75 degrees thru the rpm range. a colder cylinder indicates a misfire .engine under load temp ]extremely high[900-1200+] ;lean or really rich.
.

Have a look at your exhaust and mufflers too. Could there be any internal damage/blockage ?

Today I pulled the distributor out, installed another new cap and rotor, (the ones that I took off were fine and almost new) and also thought that I would change the magnetic pickup. When I took it off the distributor (which is almost new as well), the magnet was in three peices. Aparently it was shifting around inside the distributor, (possibly advancing the timing? maybe that would explain the hard to start) as the pickup was not tight. Therefor the adjustment (in thousandths) was variable, not set as it should be. I guess it wasn't tightened from the factory......... Anyway, problem solved.

SO glad to hear you found the problem. So then the timing was advancing at start up and possible retarding when running causing the engine to be lazy.

Now there's a problem I've never heard of previously

Bitchen that it was resolved so easily, and that nothing worse was wrong!

My guess, your timing is off, retarded, this would account for the hard cranking and no power, start by checking with a timing light your settings at idle, 16 degrees is stock. After you bring your timing up, if you still have a lack of power "and you engine losses power in the 4500 rpm range" your cam timing is off.

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:
Hi all,
My engine runs smooth, no misses, but has no power. Almost like it is running on less cylinders. It happened all of a sudden. It has MSD ignition, (dist., coil, 6AL2 box - all relatively new). After I shut it off it cranks over very slowly - like a dead battery. The battery is new and is fully charged. After sitting for a little bit (5 mins) it cranks over fine, starts right up but still has no power. When I shut it off again it does the same thing - cranks slowly. Any suggestions? I drove it around 60 miles today like that (without shutting it off until I got home). It is charging. All grounds on the MSD are clean and good to the clean frame metalwork. The coil is a blaster 3. All battery grounds are good. The power cable from the battery to the starter solenoid (also new solenoid) is good as is the cable from the solenoid to the starter. Good ground from the transaxle to the rear framework. I am at my wits end.........

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Steve

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:
Today I pulled the distributor out, installed another new cap and rotor, (the ones that I took off were fine and almost new) and also thought that I would change the magnetic pickup. When I took it off the distributor (which is almost new as well), the magnet was in three peices. Aparently it was shifting around inside the distributor, (possibly advancing the timing? maybe that would explain the hard to start) as the pickup was not tight. Therefor the adjustment (in thousandths) was variable, not set as it should be. I guess it wasn't tightened from the factory......... Anyway, problem solved.

So much for dependable aftermarket ignition systems right?