Pantera #7206 - GTS

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
...it is one of about 6 or so Pavesi Targa GT5-Ss.

David,

My Pantera is still a GT5-S, I used GT5-Ss to denote plural.

I've flirted with the idea of selling it recently because I'm 42 with two young children (7 & 5) that I spend all of my time with. My Pantera is my dream car, but experiencing my children's youth is infinitely more important to me. Being that it's only a 2 seater means it stays home much more than I would like it to. I sometimes fear it may be MANY years before I can enjoy it the way I'd like to. The question runs through my mind: Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Michael

Michael,

I'm going to PM you.

David

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Yes.

Mark

David,
I don't really have much to add that hasn't already been said. Do I drive my car? As much as I can. At least once a year I take a "road trip" that typically is 5000km or more, taking me a reeeeeal long way from home and to countries where I don't speak a word of their language and wouldn't have the slightest idea where to turn if I had a problem.

I do it (knocking heavily on any wooden object I can find) because I have confidence in the car.

Full disclosure is that I bought the car in Austria about 10 years ago, and I didn't make it home before it broke down on me. The first two years were painful due to mechanical problems, but that was a long time ago and I've had no trouble since.

Parts are easy to find, especially if you live in the US. Ironically, it is probably EASIER to find parts in the US than it is in Europe. There is an extensive network of suppliers who can find any part you need, and the prices are pretty reasonable if you consider the volume and uniqueness of the car. No, the parts aren't as cheap as a Honda Accord, but it isn't exactly a Honda either.

More food for thought: If you like the GT5S look, then I wouldn't rule out a conversion car. They have their pros and cons. There is more availability. A well-done conversion with a monster motor will be quicker than a stock factory 5-S. Depending on who did the conversion, they may have included upgraded, top-of-the-line brakes and other goodies that may be interesting.

On the other hand, if the conversion consisted of simply welding on fender flares are putting on big tires without making the other modifications required for the added stress of the monster rubber of the late cars, then you will quickly wear out or overstress certain components and have problems.

Many late-model Panteras in the US had to jump through hoops to comply with emissions, which may have reduced the available hp, espcially compared to an emissions-free Ford-era car.

In summary - a well-done and well-documented conversion car should have all the updates done by the factory and more. There are darn few GT5-S cars in the US, so the supply is much more limited.

On the other hand, an undocumented or incomplete conversion car would not be as desirable as a factory wide-body car. Food for thought.

Having owned both an 70's car ('72 pre-L) and a widebody (85 GT5-S) there is a significant difference in feel. But a 70's car that has been completely rebuilt from the ground up may be a different story.

Drive as many as you can before buying yours. It can be an expensive mistake if you buy the wrong car, or it can be a dream come true in the literal sense of the word if you buy the right car.

In front of the Factory, many miles from home, a few years ago...

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Is it worth keeping if I only drive it 2-3 times a year for the next 10-15 years?

Michael

Michael, I have said it in PM, but I will re-post for others (respectfully).

Keep the car. Sometimes you think you'll never get out there again. For many guys, you'll sell the car buy a big screen tv, finish the lasement, put a pool in the backyard, or buy a cottage. Then what do you have some home creature comforts, but once that cash is gone odds are, like many of my buddies, you'll just whine about getting a car, and life will get in the way.

Keep the car!!!!

Mark,

As always, you put up a VERY persuasive argument! I simply can't argue with the contents of your post.


Denis,

Your post is the other side of the coin that you've been sharing with me in our PM's, hence the catch 22. I think about it frequently and don't have an answer for how the huge hole in me would be filled without my Targa 5-S. This particular Pantera is a one shot deal and can't be replaced. This I know, and you've brought that into a sharper focus.


Charlie,

That's a great picture! I wish I had a picture of my Pantera in front of the deTomaso factory. I understand even the lettering has been removed from the factory.


David,

No matter what Pantera you wind up buying, you've come to the right place for support and friendship. That's what I get from these guys (as you can see), and it's invaluable! It's a major part of the reason for owning a Pantera. I, like others here are part of other forums in other online communities, and no other comes close to camaraderie here. We ARE all on the same side.

Michael

David,
Michael's car is truly awesome, and we all have mixed feelings of pride (that we know the guy that owns it, and he's a cool dude), and envy that he owns such a rare and strikingly beautiful Pantera. And so, we'd all hate to see him and the car part company, we know it would break his heart in the long run, and it would do the same to us as you live on the other side of North America, and Denis, Mark, Michael, and I (and many others)all live in the east and might never see the Targa again if it moved.

SO STOP PUTTING EVIL THOUGHTS IN HIS HEAD!!!!!

As for the Pantera, I've had my narrow body car for 2 years now, I didn't look for long, I knew what I wanted, I looked at some cars locally (rusty $40K wrecks!), read up on the forums and carefully reviewed this document >> http://www.banzairunnerpantera.com/how_to_buy.htm then went on a road trip to look at MY car, the former caretaker had taken 5 years to restore her, with photo documentation of the entire process, I crawled around under the car poking, prodding and banging for ages (he had it up off the ground for me when I arrived with the wheels off - a sign that there was nothing to hide), and then the wheels went on and it was fired up for a road trip down some straights and some twisties.

If you're in no hurry, get out to some events and talk to some of the guys, sit in the cars, and find what feels right to you, watch the key selling sites and poke and prod the owners like you're doing and you'll get the car you're after (except Michael's, that one is off limits - we obviously have to protect him from himself).

Michael,
I have 4 kids between 6 and 13, they all love the Pantera and they use it as a personal motivator/reward (Kid 1 gets homework done by 5pm each day and gets to go to the car show on Tuesdays, Kid 2 practices his music each evening and gets a ride to soccer on Thursdays etc. as for me, I get to drive it all the time AND spend time with the kids!)

Michael,

FWIW, I have 3 kids and they each LOVE when I drop one off at school in the Pantera - it's just plain cool! This is especially true now that 2 of them are in high school (actually, graduating seniors this year).

I sold my motorcycle for the very same reasons you're considering selling your Pantera when my kids were all between 1-4 years old, and regret it to this day. Of course, there's no budget for another one, and won't be for the foreseeable future either. I sure miss riding down a country 2-lane on that bike, even if it was only a handful of times each year once the kids arrived.

Best to hang on to the car - you need an outlet once in a while. And your kids will later enjoy and appreciate it too!

Guys,

You are a funny group. You all tell me to stick to my guns and get the car I really want. Good advice, I thought. Well, a GT5-S is the car I really want. You guys convince me not to let the naysayers get me down. You tell me the GT5-S is a great car; drives great, easy to work on, parts readily available, etc. You all inspired me. So I decided to take the plunge and go after a GT5-S.

So now that you all convinced me to go after a GT5-S, I decided to do so with gusto backed by your guys encouragement. But when I actually ask Michael if he would consider selling his car, you guys tell Michael not to sell the car. You are encouraging me and blocking me all at once. I've read many old posts on this board. It seems to be a recurring theme that anytime anyone contemplates selling their Pantera the whole board lights up and tells the guy not to sell.

You guys realize that guys like me will never be able to buy a Pantera if none of you guys will ever sell.

I get it though. You hate to see one of your buddies sell his Pantera, especially since I live on the West Coast and apparently most of you guys live on the east coast, and you won't have much opportunity to see the car anymore. Keep in mind that Michael says the car is parked basically 362 days per year. So the car isn't getting much exposure anyway.

Owning a Pantera is almost like belonging to a Fraternity club. And you guys hate to see one of your frat members drop out. Really, I get it.

If I buy Michael's car, I would be driving the car two or three times per week. I would be advertising the marquee and increasing awareness of the Detomaso brand. The car wouldn't disappear. It would just be transferred to someone who has more time to enjoy it.

If Michael had a regular GT5-S without the targa top, I am sure we could work out a deal because the GT5-S seem to fall into a typical price range from what I've seen...between 65k-75k based on several ads of these cars that I have seen on the internet that have sold in the recent past, and Joules has also corroborated that in one of his recent posts.

But the Targa throws a wrench into the equation. How much more is a GT5-S worth with a targa top? There may be almost no precedent because there have been so few produced. Well actually, we do have some precedent based on what Michael paid for the car. (Which I have no idea how much that was)

It's still somewhat of a long shot for me to buy Michael's car anyway. I'd have to hear more about the cars history, upgrades, etc. I brought it up for discussion because I am a serious buyer here looking for a high quality well sorted out Pantera GT5s, and I am honest. And if he genuinely is ready to sell his car I may be a painless option compared to other sellers who have to wade through dozens of looky loos calling and knocking on the door who aren't necessarily even serious, wasting everyone's time.

Michael, I sent you a PM but I haven't heard back. I don't know if you received it. Anyway, you can PM me or write back here. Would you consider selling your car or have you changed your mind?

You have two beautiful kids that need your attention, and your poor GT5-S just sits there in your garage sad and lonely. If you sell your car to me, I will carry the torch and take good care of this car, and I will be driving it often, as a beautiful car like this should be driven and enjoyed, not parked for indefinite periods.

David

P.S- Charlie, beautiful picture of your car. It is a historic picture too. I have never seen the DeTomaso factory before. It was so cool to see your car with the DeTomaso factory in the background.

David,

I did get the PM. The response to it will be lengthy and I haven't had the time yet to clear my head and write it uninterrupted. I actually have the response window still open, as I tried a few times. Hopefully, I'll get to it tonight as right now I'm off to a little league game...

Michael

The Targa belongs to Michael.... nuff said. Should stay with him and his family for life!! Michael is a great DeTomaso enthusiast and that pantera is his calling card. Cyboman doesn't remember but there was a huge car show going on in the Bronx I believe and I belonged to a different forum. I made a mention that I hoped a Pantera would make the event and Michael tracked me down just to let me know this place existed.
Good luck with the search, if you are serios I can tell you where a lot of these cars are.... just stay away from the black cars, I haven't got mine yet.

David, As stated in my earlier post, search and you shall find. My Mangusta was hidden in a collection of LamboFerattis, clean but had noit seen the light of day for at least 8 years. The car was NOT FOR SALE , but at then end of the day I convinced the owner I should be it's next owner.

Hint: If you are hard-up for a GT5s have you contacted Peter Havlik? screen thru QV500 and PROVAMO. Make your own little registry and contact the owners.

Yours Truly
Denis

David,

Denis is right.

There are a whole bunch of GT5 and GT5S cars for sale. In all colors and conditions. Honest, you will find the perfect one if you do a little googling and searching.

On this board we've helped lots of guys buy cars. Many times they become lifelong friends.

But we've known Cyboman for many years. We know he loves his car. We also know he will miss it terribly. Maybe less so if you pay a really high price. After all there aren't many like it.

Do some looking first. It's not going anywhere - not so fast anyhow. And actually, the reason we don't want him to sell it, is because we want him to sell it to one of us first.

David, Doctor Larry warned you about the P car fever. Take the doc's advice. Your low grade fever has turned into a 104 and raising temp. A GTS to a GT5-S, slow down. Learn about these cars from sites like this.Buy books,go see ,inspect, sit in, test drive as many P cars your time allows. Pantera's are a reliable
cars, but are old and need attention to keep the reliable. Chuck

quote:

I get it though. You hate to see one of your buddies sell his Pantera, especially since I live on the West Coast and apparently most of you guys live on the east coast, and you won't have much opportunity to see the car anymore.

David,
Have you considered moving to the east coast?

Seriously though, you've hit the nail on the head in that Micheal is an important part of the 'fraternity' and is caretaker of a gem of a car.

So we have the dilemma of encouraging you to pursue the car you want - we sincerely want you to be a happy and active member of the community, and we also want Micheal to keep the car we know he has a passion for, and believe he would regret giving up (should he decide to do that).

That leaves tracking down one of the other targas either real, or created, and either option can be a good one if the car is properly sorted as has been stated so many times in this thread.

Someone correct me here, but didn't Hall Pantera put out a couple of GT5-S Targas when they did their Hall Super Pantera models (there was at least one ("Purple Passion" pictured below)? But I'm sure I've seen pictures of another one at one of the vendors' shops recently (maybe it was Hall ... it was either blue with white stripes, or maybe it was a red car - my memory is failing me, I've seen too many photos)

I know I'm not talking about a real GT5-S Pavesi, but we'd be hard pressed to find a Pantera that is bone stock (I'm pretty sure Michael isn't on stock rims)



On the other hand, wait until you see Will Demelo's Group 4 when it rolls out, you may decide that's the style for you. David Berman's GT5 has an interior that makes most owners' hearts skip a beat. Take your time and look around - I was at a car show in Florida a few weeks ago and 7 Panteras showed up including a stunning white GT5-S (not a Targa, but still beautiful - see below).

BTW David, you sound like you're gonna fit into the community just fine, Welcome to the 'fraternity'

Guys,

Never even heard of QV500 until Denis mentioned it in his post (Thanks Denis). I went into the website and it appears to be some sort of registry of the Pantera cars. But none of these cars are listed for sale.

It appears I may have found Michael's GT-5s in the registry. Michael, is your chassis #9434? Because it looks just like your car. If it is, your car was originally white. Originally it had red interior. Originally it had a delta wing. And your original wheels are gone. I'm glad it is not original. I hope and pray that because your car is no longer original, the value has been somewhat compromised, to help offset whatever increased value the car has because it is a Targa. Because I'm scared that Targa top is going to cost me. (Ha!)

I also went through ProvaMo. There is only one GT5s listed for sale there. It is a beautiful Red with gold wheels. Completely gone through,completely sorted out. Perfect beautiful car asking 75k. I already contacted that guy. He lives in Florida and the car is already sold.

Being that there are only about 50 GT5-s in the USA, I don't get where you guys say there are plenty of these cars available. Yeah there are lots available in Europe, but I am scared to buy a car from Europe without even seeing it in person. And it would cost me thousands of dollars to fly to Europe to take a look. But I can fly anywhere in the USA to look at a car for just a few hundred dollars. So it seems to me my only chance to buy a GT5-s is from a small pool of guys (less than 50)who own these cars living in the USA.

Denis- No I haven't contacted Peter Havlik. Actually I have no idea who this person is. If this gentleman named Peter has any leads on a GT5-s, I would appreciate if you could forward me his e-mail so I can contact him.

Deloreans and DeTomaso- You also mentioned if I am serious you can tell me where lots of these cars are? Please do tell me. Thanks.

David B- You also mentioned that there are a whole bunch of GT5-s for sale. If so, please tell me where?

I checked ebay. No GT5-s listed in the USA ebay. I checked ProvaMo. None available there except the beautiful red one in Florida that already sold. I've checked Hemmings. None there. PIM- Nope, none there either. PistonHeads- Yeah they have some nice ones listed. Mostly RH drive and all in Europe.

7260- Yes I seem to have a temperature. I've gone from tinkering with the idea of looking at the GTS at PIM to deciding I want a GT5-s. It's Charlie's and Michael's fault for showing me pics of their cars. Ha!

But my heart was already migrating towards the GT5-s anyway. I checked out a nice '72 Red Pantera for sale last week. The owner was very nice and helpful. The car is in very good shape. Sounds nice too. We went for a drive. I couldn't help but notice the car had a very dated feel. It's not the car's fault. It is almost 40 yrs old. I've always loved the look of the '71-'74 Panteras. Still do. But when we drove it around it just felt like time has finally caught up with this car, even though the car performed fine.

A couple of years ago I went to PIM in Orange, Ca. to take a look at what they had. When I got there a gentleman with a Pantera GT5s pulled up. He told Jerry that his battery kept going dead. They suspected the radio might have been the cause. Anyway, it was the first time I saw a GT5-s. It looked so much more modern and refined than the '71-74 Panteras. Again that's no knock on the '71-74 cars. But the GT5-s has the advantage of being 15 yrs newer. That car left an imprint on me. It had a modern look and feel. More sophisticated if you will. JMO of course. But for me, the GT5-s is the best looking and most refined of the Panteras.

To me the GT5 is a car in transition. It had the wide body and looked more modern than the '71 narrow body Panteras. But the fenders looked sort of like an after market add on. The front spoiler looks bulky and unrefined IMO. No offense to any GT5 owners out there. They are nice cars. But to me the GT5-s is a result of the advances made from the genesis of the '71-'74 Panteras to the GT5, and they finally got it just right with the unveiling of the latest generation GT5-s. The GT5-s has smooth lines. The fender flares are graceful. The car looks like the finished product. That is the car for me.

I still like the look of Michael's car. The color, the decals, I don't know. That car just sort of all came together. I'm just saying.

I so much appreciate all of you guys for your input. I wonder if any of you guys are going to the Reno Fun Rally coming up? I am going to try to go. I hope to meet some of you guys there.


David

David sent you a PM
Denis

David,
Not sure if this will help, but here's how you might be able to get yourself a GT5-S. Go back to the ProvaMo site, but don't go to the 2 that are listed for sale, rather, go to the page that lists all of the GT5-S cars and click on the photos for each of the USA cars, many of them have phrases like 'listed for sale' although the dates are a couple of years old, so I don't know if they're already sold. It may be a case of Chuck being overwhelmed with work trying to update content on new Panteras and keeping all us registrants on the site happy that he doesn't have the cycles to keep the 'for sale' and 'sold' cars under the right links (or the owners just haven't updated their content, I don't know), so Maybe (fingers crossed) there are some cars actually for sale sitting under our noses.

If nothing else, call the numbers listed for the GT5-Ss, talk to the guys who either own them now (so they know you're looking), or find out who they've sold them to, and call the new guys so they'll know you're looking should they be having second thoughts about their purchase. You might even score the opportunity to get out and inspect a few cars!

... hopefully useful advice this time

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:
It appears I may have found Michael's GT-5s in the registry. Michael, is your chassis #9434? Because it looks just like your car. If it is, your car was originally white. Originally it had red interior. Originally it had a delta wing. And your original wheels are gone. I'm glad it is not original. I hope and pray that because your car is no longer original, the value has been somewhat compromised, to help offset whatever increased value the car has because it is a Targa. Because I'm scared that Targa top is going to cost me. (Ha!)

David,

9434 is indeed my 5-S. QV500 has it listed as an '85, but it is actually an '86. It was originally white with red leather interior with the delta wing, white painted campys, and NO lettering on the side. That is how it was when I first came across it in April of '95 when I took that picture. I posted it on the web a few years ago, that's where QV500 got it from. It is listed on the ProvaMo website as well with better pictures. I was able to finally purchase it in Sept. '03. I got it in it's current color combo. The picture below is what it looked like when I first got it.

The car is bone stock except for the change in colors, and the wheels. Original campys can always be refitted, but I just don't think they suit the car at this point. I don't think these changes affect the value. In fact, the color and wheels really make the car 'pop' and make it much more attractive than it was in it's original form, hence making it more desirable. Just last season, I was asked if it was a new car. It totally fits in with modern exotics.

Ask around at what a Pantera knowledgeable shop would charge to do a targa conversion on a Pantera. I did when I had my '74. About 10 years ago, the only place who would attempt it (Tom Horvath? in CA) said it would cost a minimun of 50k, and would likely be closer to 100k when all was said and done. Gary Hall did 'Purple Passion' (pictured in an above post), and said he WOULD NOT duplicate that targa conversion for 250k! He said the targa conversion was way too labor intensive and costly, and he wouldn't take his time up with it again. Even after all that, it still isn't a Pavesi Targa. I'm not saying that a targa top will add 100k to the price of my Pantera, but it's not going to be a few thousand either. If you were to ride in a targa Pantera, I think your 'fever' would become life threatening!

Michael