Push Button Panteras, more questions.

I have seen three pushbutton cars sell recently two I would say high end cars. If I remember right the asking price varied from $55,000 to $69,000
They all sold pretty quick within a month or two. One was listed with PI International by owner and the other two with PI Motorsports

If you use Haggerty, they don't require an appraisal. You can submit anything as long as it's not outrageous.

My thoughts,

We don't receive any inquiries at the club from buyers seeking pushbuttons, there is no demand for them verses the supply to drive the prices up. The "hot" cars these days are the wide bodies, everybody wants a wide body.

I don't see any particular reason why a pushbutton should be valued much higher than the other Ford spec Panteras IF the car in question has been modified in any way. If the Pantera in question is not original color, with original wheels, chrome trim, original interior and original engine & engine bay, then its just another modified Pantera. Like any modified Pantera its value shall be based on condition and the desirability of the modifications that have been performed. I do buy into the idea that the pushbuttons make an ideal "potential" collector car due to the limited number built and their hand built nature. An all original pushbutton Pantera in great condition is indeed worth a premium price. The buyer looking for such a car would be willing to pay that premium price too. But any modifications to the car will spoil the collectable nature of the car.

The reality is that we in the Pantera hobby have a skewed idea of what concours means, of what a show room stock car is. So many owners who think of their cars as "stock" have blacked out trim, or aftermarket wheels (Campy clones), or a dressed up engine, or they have smoothed & painted the engine bay, or they have painted their car a color something other than the original color. Take a car like that to a true concours show, and pit it against the concours Ferraris and Maseratis, it won't make it to first base.

George

Right you are, George. Coming from the Mustang world, it still kind of amazes me the type of mods done to primo, low mileage cars - like big radios with speakers cut into the door panels, aftermarket outside mirrors, color changes, non Ford blue engines, etc. Just a different mind set here, but then I've never heard of thoroughbred judging for Panteras.

I am in the process of "cleaning up" 1332 to how it rolled from the factory. It is an original yellow car and I recently scraped all the undercoating and repainted the engine bay leaving all the seams and any factory flaws. I think it is a cool look. It is how it looked before that sloped all the undercoating on it. The engine is being re-painted ford blue and all stock parts are being painted or cleaned up. It has stock headers and mufflers. I have it insured for $40K. What it is worth only the market can determine.
Anson

At the concorso Italiano I have the honor of selecting the "Best DeTomaso of Show", the car goes on stage, receives the award provided by the event organizers and it is then judged by the event's judges against the other "Best of Marque" cars, i.e. the best Ferrari, the best Maserati, the best Alfa Romeo, etc. The winner of the judging receives a "Best of Show" trophy from the event organizers.

This is the big time for a DeTomaso. To be judged by a qualified party outside of our hobby, against other concours quality cars. Of course, no DeTomaso has ever won best of show.

It takes time, Rome wasn't built in a day. I am steering the thinking of the atttendees of our shows more towards the mainstream concept of what a concours car is, at least for the owners who present their cars as such. We'll always have the modified cars, I see no problem with that. But my hope is that we will have a few owners who are up for the challenge to present their cars as showroom stock, so we can compete with the other marques and win that best of show trophy. It would gain our hobby a little bit of respectability, we'd be taken more seriously, and so would our cars (values would go up).

Southern California has the largest concentration of Panteras. There is a new show in Southern California, the Los Angeles Concours, where that type of third party judging goes on. This will be a great venue for the owner who wants to compete in that type of show, I hope there are a few who will do so.

George

thanks for the replies, especially yours Cowboy From Hell, as you really hit on some great points.

my car is all original, and runs/drives, but its not what i wanted as far as a "driver" goes. i am on the fence as to make it exactly what "I" want, or just buy a later car and do what i want with it. i think a later GTS is more what i am looking for. i think $40k would be a reasonable point to insure it at. as far as what its worth on the market, i guess if i go ahead and list it, i will see what the market will bear!

thanks for the discussion, i freaking love these cars!

Michael,


pic :

Reaper,

"but its not what i wanted as far as a "driver" goes"

What do you mean by that? Your Pantera is pretty much like all Panteras in original condition, so will drive the same. It will even have a little more power than later cars due to emmisions law.

Being 26, and following George P. theory, I fall towards wide cars, thats why I decided to modify 1959(in the process) to a wide body.

You can keep pushbutton stock looks and make your car a "hell of a driver" updating mechanics etc and it will drive as good as you want , or you are looking into a more aggresive look like I do?

It took me a lot to decide to modify my car, and it is a 1971 Pre L...I would probably not do it with a pushbutton...or would have bought another car.

Fernando.

Being a Concours competitor with my non-Pcar, as I dont own a DeTomaso....yet, I would like to add that a Concours car must be as it left the factory, not as it left the dealer showroom. Typically safety mods performed by the dealer are acceptable if the commitee has allowed it but thats it. The cars must retain their crappy cooling and electricals intact. Concours is truly for the OCD individual. Although I intend to win the next Concours I enter next June I've realized I'm just not that anal. Conversely, you would be surprised to see what incredibly well represented cars dont even place!!
I wonder how "Best of Show" is determined on a non marque specific judging. The judges CANNOT possibly know all the intricacies of every individual make and model.
That Black Magic Mangusta looked like one hell of a contender though!! I bet it was either prejudice against the marque or some incredibly trivial detail that kept it from bringing the gold home, that car was flawless in my book.
...I'll get off the soapbox now, Concours discussions always drive me crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by DeLoreans and DeTomasos:
Being a Concours competitor with my non-Pcar, as I dont own a DeTomaso....yet, I would like to add that a Concours car must be as it left the factory, not as it left the dealer showroom. Typically safety mods performed by the dealer are acceptable if the commitee has allowed it but thats it. The cars must retain their crappy cooling and electricals intact. Concours is truly for the OCD individual. Although I intend to win the next Concours I enter next June I've realized I'm just not that anal. Conversely, you would be surprised to see what incredibly well represented cars dont even place!!
I wonder how "Best of Show" is determined on a non marque specific judging. The judges CANNOT possibly know all the intricacies of every individual make and model.
That Black Magic Mangusta looked like one hell of a contender though!! I bet it was either prejudice against the marque or some incredibly trivial detail that kept it from bringing the gold home, that car was flawless in my book.
...I'll get off the soapbox now, Concours discussions always drive me crazy.

yes, i understand, as i came here from the Ferrari world. my push button is "too original" to modify as i would like it. i think there are too few of them left to butcher this one.

quote:

Originally posted by Bianchito:
Reaper,

"but its not what i wanted as far as a "driver" goes"

What do you mean by that? Your Pantera is pretty much like all Panteras in original condition, so will drive the same. It will even have a little more power than later cars due to emmisions law.

Being 26, and following George P. theory, I fall towards wide cars, thats why I decided to modify 1959(in the process) to a wide body.

You can keep pushbutton stock looks and make your car a "hell of a driver" updating mechanics etc and it will drive as good as you want , or you are looking into a more aggresive look like I do?

It took me a lot to decide to modify my car, and it is a 1971 Pre L...I would probably not do it with a pushbutton...or would have bought another car.

Fernando.

thank you for the reply. you make a good point, please allow me to explain:

i know my car weighs less and probably has a bit more compression being a early car. however, i am not so much into "speed" per se, and would prefer a nice black car i can put flares and a wing on for fun. my push button is more of a collectors car and not a car to modify. i got it where it runs and drives, i think i will be putting it up for sale in the next week or so and pursue one of the 2 black cars on the east coast.

Which cars? I'm on the east coast and would gladly go look at them for you if they are in the NY NJ CT area. Need some reason to fuel the addiction.

I love the idea of a concourse car but I wonder of there is enough documentation and original examples left to support such an effort.

My example are Mustangs. There are enough originals examples around to support the volumes of ducuments that Ford produced to prove what is concourse correct and what isn't. Does this exist with the P car. Even low mileage P cars often have aftermarket modifications. My thoughts go to a recent post where someone was inquiring about a stock air cleaner. Some early photos showed the air cleaner at the 1 o'clock position and other photos at the 7 o'clock. Was there even enough consistency within Detomaso to say what is right or wrong. I'm sure this knowledge exists within the Pantera community but getting it out to concourse judges is going to be a long haul.

How refreshing that would be though. A totally showroom stock 1970's P car.

HD & Miles, the type of judging you gentlemen are thinking of is the type of judging that goes on within a marque, pitting one Mustang against another, or one Delorean against another. The judging is rigidly based on an agreed grocery list of what parts came with each model and trim level. As you have pointed out, its very, very anal. A car can lose points for having a non-oem screw. Or a casting that doesn't have the right casting flaws (i.e. "this valve cover is supposed to have an upside down 3 in the part number").

As Miles pointed out,it would be difficult to even decide upon what the standard parts are for a Pantera, and no matter what was decided, there would be many exceptions. Do Pantera guys really want this? I don't think Pantera guys are that anal.

The other type of concours judging is the type that occurs when the cars from one marque are judged against the cars from several others. As HD pointed out, its impossible for any judge to be an expert on all the anal details he would have to know for every car he may view at any given show. The criteria at such a show is not quite so anal, as it is with an isolated marque. Cars being judged this way are expected to maintain the "patina" of the original showroom versions. That is, they need to have the look and feel of the car when they were new, the parts, the finishes, the presentation must be "era corect".

An owner will be judged on his/her craftsmenship, knowledge of period correct parts and presentation, their ability to restore a car while maitaining that period correct patina, the owner's attention to detail, and how well the car was detailed.

The judges are sharp enough to know that a certain metallic color was not available in the sixties, or that a certain marque never offered laquer finishes. They're sharp enough to know that your Pantera had the cloth covered coolant hoses, not Gates Green Stripe hoses. They're sharp enough to know that your Ford engine was not equipped with a Holley carburetor, or with stainless steel allen head fasteners. They know your engine compartment was coated with that gooey tar, not smoothed and painted. They know your pre-L Pantera came equipped with Michelin XVR tires, not Dunlop Qualifiers. Or your interior was upholstered in vinyl, not leather, Ansa mufflers, not Hall big bores. They would not know the subtle differences between the various generations of Campagnolo wheel castings however, or the subtle differences between various pre-L bumpers.

I think this type of competition is more appealing, not nearly so anal, yet still very exacting. Instead of pitting one Pantera or Mangusta or Longchamp against another, its DeTomaso verses Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, etc.

Wouldn't each and every one of us be proud the first time a Pantera won such a competition, and beat the Ferrari guys at the game they do so well?! I sure would! It would be a big step up in the respectability of our marque as far as car shows go. Like I wrote previously, I am hoping some owners will take the challenge and have fun with it.

cowboy from hell

I agree with everyone that these cars were built with too little uniformity and documentation to be judged in such a way. I know the "Expert" on Duesenbergs for example has documented Duesenberg s based on his experience and is the leading reference at such events. There are many others that will till you his info is slanted and not always right but has become "History" as such reference.

I think the marque may do better if early not molested examples were well documented instead of judged.

Gary

The pushbuttons like the Mangusta were produced in limited numbers (381/401?)In my opinion, this in itself will make the car more valuable in the long haul if they are kept unmolested. I have the Hawaii 5-0 pushbutton and my 'goose insured for $60k each through Grundy. I would not consider selling them for anything less than that amount which is how I decided on that number. Anything being offered for sale is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it no matter what it's "estimated" worth is. At the moment, my cars are "priceless" to me. I love driving them and enjoy having them around. Of course the right price offer could put any one of them up for adoption!

quote:

The reality is that we in the Pantera hobby have a skewed idea of what concours means, of what a show room stock car is. So many owners who think of their cars as "stock" have blacked out trim, or aftermarket wheels (Campy clones), or a dressed up engine, or they have smoothed & painted the engine bay, or they have painted their car a color something other than the original color. Take a car like that to a true concours show, and pit it against the concours Ferraris and Maseratis, it won't make it to first base.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but realize the automotive elite you're trying to impress, hated the car from day-one. Sure there were quality issues with the early cars, but the single most reason I hear why these cars aren't respected is lack of pedigree. The Pantera is a known morphodite put together with a single purpose in mind--make money. The lack of factory records for FORD era cars also contribute to the mutt factor.

I also realize a modified car will never reach first base in the snooty concours world. However, that's not a problem with me. I admire and celebrate the owners and vendors who have taken a flawed product, modified it, and finished what the factory started. They are the reason Pantera ownership thrives today.

Josh