I see the vendors all seem to have their own take on a chassis stiffening kit. I am just wondering what people here are using and if you can suggest which kit is best.
Thanks,
Wade
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I'm happy with the Hall rears (upper and lower). I don't use the front braces as I don't feel there is as much a need but I could be wrong.
Will
Will
I also have Hall's kit. Upper and lower front and rear. I strongly recommend it to anyone who drives their cars hard.
I believe that most all the kits stiffen up the car, so it comes down to personal preference on appearance. Hall's or Byers kits (basically the same as Byers used to work for Hall) are probably the most popular and I think are a bolt in (don't you have to weld them together though?). I have Larry Stocks lower cross braces that require some mounting plates welded on for the lower front. My upper rear will be my own design.
I've said before (and got flamed), I don't believe unless it's an all out racer the upper front braces offer much stiffening as the front tub area is a box section in itself.
Julian
I've said before (and got flamed), I don't believe unless it's an all out racer the upper front braces offer much stiffening as the front tub area is a box section in itself.
Julian
quote:probably the most popular and I think are a bolt in (don't you have to weld them together
Correct. No welding required.
And I agree with your statement about the fronts. No flaming here ;>)
They vary in design because anyone with a welder can make them out of 1" od 3/16" wall dom steel tube, and some plate.
Some are more valuable to the chassis then others but none are really "needed".
Wide fender cars probably would benefit more from them because of the added jolt to the chassis from the bigger rubber.
To me they are just glitzy techno jewelery. Wear what makes you feel good.
Some are more valuable to the chassis then others but none are really "needed".
Wide fender cars probably would benefit more from them because of the added jolt to the chassis from the bigger rubber.
To me they are just glitzy techno jewelery. Wear what makes you feel good.
I disagree. The stiffening kit is not cosmetic. I did some serious follow up on this an can attest to it's effectiveness.
It prevents the chassis flex that is more prevelant today as we have added fatter tires and so much more HP than these cars came with originally.
Read this thread:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...630041364#9630041364
It prevents the chassis flex that is more prevelant today as we have added fatter tires and so much more HP than these cars came with originally.
Read this thread:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...630041364#9630041364
Circumstantial evidence. How do you know that the cracks would continue to grow without the braces?
I am not saying that the cars don't crack. I'm just saying that they won't necessarily not crack with the bracing added.
What I noticed on the Panteras is that the cracks appear shortly after the car gets stripped down and repainted and that I suspect that many times just the paint has cracked there.
Mine cracked in the usual spots sitting in the garage with ZERO miles on it with fresh paint. It had been stripped down, re-primed, and re-painted.
Upon stripping it down (again) in those areas MY car had no cracks in the sheet metal skin, just the paint.
It is kind of difficult to conduct a scientific experiment on the cars now and the histories o every car are different.
If one chooses to believe that the braces will absolutely eliminate the cracking that is fine.
For me, they would have made absolutely no difference at all. The paint still would have cracked.
Just sayin'.
I am not saying that the cars don't crack. I'm just saying that they won't necessarily not crack with the bracing added.
What I noticed on the Panteras is that the cracks appear shortly after the car gets stripped down and repainted and that I suspect that many times just the paint has cracked there.
Mine cracked in the usual spots sitting in the garage with ZERO miles on it with fresh paint. It had been stripped down, re-primed, and re-painted.
Upon stripping it down (again) in those areas MY car had no cracks in the sheet metal skin, just the paint.
It is kind of difficult to conduct a scientific experiment on the cars now and the histories o every car are different.
If one chooses to believe that the braces will absolutely eliminate the cracking that is fine.
For me, they would have made absolutely no difference at all. The paint still would have cracked.
Just sayin'.
quote:Some are more valuable to the chassis then others but none are really "needed".
IMHO, chassis stiffening is absolutely required with high horsepower and fat tires.
That is the first time ever that I've heard that chassis stiffening is not needed.
No experiment needed to determine why you got cracks. Your car is clearly flexing or else your paint would not crack.
I read posts where a member was driving behind a Pantera and could see the side gaps of the rear decklid clearly changing as the car went around corners. No more movement after the owner stiffened the chassis.
Just my 2 cents.
Will
My car is still with it's original paint. The typical pantera cracks at the pillars were there when I bought it and continued to grow over time. I measured their growth which doubled in size after 5 years of active hard driving. I would touch up these cracks and watch them reappear. After installing the stiffener kit they stopped growing. I did the same touchups. Ten years later they have not reappeared.
I drove behind my car and looked at the gap between the edges of the rear deck and the rear face. This would go from 1/4" to 3/4" as my son drove around slowly. Crazy! I thought it was the deck flexing.
After installing the stiffener kit I did the dame thing. No changes in the gap. It was the chassis flexing. Not the deck. These chassis are 35 yrs old!
Plus we've added about 150 HP, better suspension and about 2" more footprint to our tires.
I drove behind my car and looked at the gap between the edges of the rear deck and the rear face. This would go from 1/4" to 3/4" as my son drove around slowly. Crazy! I thought it was the deck flexing.
After installing the stiffener kit I did the dame thing. No changes in the gap. It was the chassis flexing. Not the deck. These chassis are 35 yrs old!
Plus we've added about 150 HP, better suspension and about 2" more footprint to our tires.
quote:Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:quote:Some are more valuable to the chassis then others but none are really "needed".
IMHO, chassis stiffening is absolutely required with high horsepower and fat tires.
That is the first time ever that I've heard that chassis stiffening is not needed.
No experiment needed to determine why you got cracks. Your car is clearly flexing or else your paint would not crack.
I read posts where a member was driving behind a Pantera and could see the side gaps of the rear decklid clearly changing as the car went around corners. No more movement after the owner stiffened the chassis.
Just my 2 cents.
Will
Well yyou didn't read what I wrote. I said the car cracked in the paint never having been moved from the spot where it was painted.
It wasn't rolled, it wasn't run, it didn't do anything.
Braces wouild not have changed that in my opinion, and that's all that I said.
quote:To me they are just glitzy techno jewelery
I would be concerned if your paint is cracking without driving. I'm not trying to be a smartass, but that shouldn't happen.
I did get the feeling that your opinion was that "it doesn't work at all"
Sorry if I misread or misunderstood.
Will
......... and we agree a basically simple 6 point roll cage is the best solution ?
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
......... and we agree a basically simple 6 point roll cage is the best solution ?
Simple?
I especially like the part in the engine compartment and especially hate the part in the passenger compartment.
I kinda think if your going to add horsepower and kinda remember seeing a Pantera upside down ... ridgidity and saftey become key factors in both. I must say once a cage is added its a very different feeling in the entire car.
Beside the various vendor kits, there are a few other ways to stiffen up a unibody car like the Pantera. The earliest way known to be effective is to seam-weld every spot-welded joint in the car! (GR-4 LeMans cars had this done) Obviously this will not appeal to those with 5-figure paint jobs already in place.
The second, mostly-unproven way is to use under-floor joining-sections and gussets between the floor panels and the front & rear subframes, ala Mustang stiffer kits. I think this approximates some of what the Vendor kits do.
The third way, as someone mentioned, is a full cage welded, not bolted in place. A bolt-in rollover hoop behind your head will not be as effective, even with dual down-leg braces.
FWIW, Larry Stock of PPC-Reno has his own front & rear brace-kits on his do-everything '72. After 5-6 years of Silver State events including getting 'big-air' at 150 mph over a hump-backed bridge in one event, he completely cracked the lower front subframe extensions off the tub! Daylight was showing clear around both sides, which mount the lower a-arms and front swaybars. But because of the structural rigidity added by his lower front brace-kit, he only found out about the breakage when he took the car in for a wheel realignment.... So while the stiffness benefits of an upper-front brace are debateable, the LOWER front kits do perform a function!
The second, mostly-unproven way is to use under-floor joining-sections and gussets between the floor panels and the front & rear subframes, ala Mustang stiffer kits. I think this approximates some of what the Vendor kits do.
The third way, as someone mentioned, is a full cage welded, not bolted in place. A bolt-in rollover hoop behind your head will not be as effective, even with dual down-leg braces.
FWIW, Larry Stock of PPC-Reno has his own front & rear brace-kits on his do-everything '72. After 5-6 years of Silver State events including getting 'big-air' at 150 mph over a hump-backed bridge in one event, he completely cracked the lower front subframe extensions off the tub! Daylight was showing clear around both sides, which mount the lower a-arms and front swaybars. But because of the structural rigidity added by his lower front brace-kit, he only found out about the breakage when he took the car in for a wheel realignment.... So while the stiffness benefits of an upper-front brace are debateable, the LOWER front kits do perform a function!