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7
Attachments
To answer some other questions. The stuff that blew away with the blasting was filler. Ther stuff that stayed are dramatic welds and holes filled with weld then covered in undercoating. A magnet sticks to that. And a hamer on it will feel solid.
The engine bay at the day of the sale.
Attachments
I may be wrong, but my guess is that the link below is related to the fellow Michel bought his car from, and this may actually be the car itself (a yellow '71)
http://roxboroughinfo.com/pantera.htm
Michel,
My hope would be that the seller will deal quickly and fairly with you in this situation to avoid damaging his reputation with future buyers.
As was done.
quote:Originally posted by Vereeken:
A magnet sticks to that. And a hamer on it will feel solid.
quote:Originally posted by #5754:
I may be wrong, but my guess is that the link below is related to the fellow Michel bought his car from, and this may actually be the car itself (a yellow '71)
The article says that Keith has restored or refurbished over 165 cars and favors Panteras. So Will, I'd say 'yes' there are probably a few out there that Keith has worked on.
http://roxboroughinfo.com/pantera.htm
Michel,
My hope would be that as someone who restores and resells cars, Keith will deal quickly and fairly with you in this situation to avoid damaging his reputation with future buyers.
Thanks, indeed the same guy and probably car (I knew it was originally yellow).
Michel
Michel,
Post the link to the e-bay ad or send it to me, I would like to review it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vereeken:
Post the link to the e-bay ad or send it to me, I would like to review it.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vereeken:
quote:Originally posted by comp2:
What does dead mean? I see some badly rusted areas, but I have not seen a part on this car which could not be fabricated.
The issue is how much has to be fabricated, weather you are going to do the fabrication yourself, or have some one else do it, how much time and money you have. This is not to say this is the best choice but it also means not all is lost if you can or wish to tackle it.
I only saw the one photo but the frame and the uprights them self are not to hard to repair. The issue I am guessing is most of the car is this way.
My hat off to you sir.
Michel
Michel,
This is indeed sad to see and I like others here sympathize with your plight. I suppose it's a case of when to cut you losses which itself depends how much $$ you have in this car already and what you feel you can recoup by parting her out.
Even with the latest photo's I see a car that can be fixed, let's face it at least you know exactly what you are in for here. You could go out and be back in the same position in 6 months, even some of those cars at $50K you never really know what your purchasing unless there is a complete documented photographic restoration. If this car were rebuilt you would have piece of mind and know exactly what you have... the very best. Patch panels although time consuming are fairly easy to fabricate.
If you do decide to pass then a first attempt at selling the car whole rather than parting out piece by piece may be in order.
FWIW my '74 was a very solid car, had a few rust spots on the front valance, well when I stripped off all the bitumen I found more (or less car) than I bargained for and spent a couple months welding. It's always a roll of the dice.
Good luck,
Julian
This is indeed sad to see and I like others here sympathize with your plight. I suppose it's a case of when to cut you losses which itself depends how much $$ you have in this car already and what you feel you can recoup by parting her out.
Even with the latest photo's I see a car that can be fixed, let's face it at least you know exactly what you are in for here. You could go out and be back in the same position in 6 months, even some of those cars at $50K you never really know what your purchasing unless there is a complete documented photographic restoration. If this car were rebuilt you would have piece of mind and know exactly what you have... the very best. Patch panels although time consuming are fairly easy to fabricate.
If you do decide to pass then a first attempt at selling the car whole rather than parting out piece by piece may be in order.
FWIW my '74 was a very solid car, had a few rust spots on the front valance, well when I stripped off all the bitumen I found more (or less car) than I bargained for and spent a couple months welding. It's always a roll of the dice.
Good luck,
Julian
I did a "keyword" search on this board for '1447'. A few results popped up as this car has been discussed before.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...270049584#4270049584
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...410068044#1410068044
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...890000715#8890000715
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...670023384#5670023384
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...270049584#4270049584
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...410068044#1410068044
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...890000715#8890000715
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...670023384#5670023384
Here is one that is a little more telling of the guys character.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
Quoting the seller below, it's obvious his idea of fixing it was covering up the problems, which he did very well, and not fixing it at all.
Posted Nov 03, 06 19:34
I purchased my Pantera without first seeing the car and I've been repairing rust and rot for months! But I can fix it cheaply, just tons of fabricating. Rust is hard to repair and likely on most cars in wet climates! I would have passed on my present car if I looked at it first.
Posts: 131 | Location: Bailey, Colorado | Registered: July 04, 2006
quote:Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
Here is one that is a little more telling of the guys character.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...820073754#7820073754
Weird though he makes these comments about not buying the car if he had done a better inspection originally, supposedly sells the car, then buys it back several months later in Oct 2007.......
Coz is right in what he stated!! I would like him to respond to these allegations but I doubt he is still on this forum.
Sorry to see the problems with your car Vereeken. Most Panteras have some minor rust hiding away someplace but yours is pretty sad indeed. But not the worst I’ve seen.
The difficulty in fixing monocoque cars like the Pantera is finding someone that can do the work and create a proper repair that cannot be deducted so the car stays original and unmolested. This means the person doing the repair has factory parts or exact reproduction parts or can make them. Someone that can hammer weld is also a must if you need to insert pieces into existing parts. I expect Cos must have access to that type support and parts but it is can be time consuming and very costly. On the other hand I’ve seen many Pantera repairs that absolutely scream cheap sloppy repair and you can see them for miles even with undercoat on top of them.
An example of the complexity of monocoque repair. When I was having my front valance replaced along with the front cross member I ordered a triangle part from one of the Pantera vendors. It arrived but it did not have the proper flange areas on it for the spot weld reproductions. Apparently the vendor expected it to be seam welded in!! My repair guy said it was trash and made his own part that was an exact copy of the original. Take a look at an example of how it should be done by one of the masters of monocoque repair http://www.panteraplace.com/page44.htm Note the reproduction of the spot welds that show on both sides.
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
The difficulty in fixing monocoque cars like the Pantera is finding someone that can do the work and create a proper repair that cannot be deducted so the car stays original and unmolested. This means the person doing the repair has factory parts or exact reproduction parts or can make them. Someone that can hammer weld is also a must if you need to insert pieces into existing parts. I expect Cos must have access to that type support and parts but it is can be time consuming and very costly. On the other hand I’ve seen many Pantera repairs that absolutely scream cheap sloppy repair and you can see them for miles even with undercoat on top of them.
An example of the complexity of monocoque repair. When I was having my front valance replaced along with the front cross member I ordered a triangle part from one of the Pantera vendors. It arrived but it did not have the proper flange areas on it for the spot weld reproductions. Apparently the vendor expected it to be seam welded in!! My repair guy said it was trash and made his own part that was an exact copy of the original. Take a look at an example of how it should be done by one of the masters of monocoque repair http://www.panteraplace.com/page44.htm Note the reproduction of the spot welds that show on both sides.
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
Have pictures of other areas? I still have not seen a show stopper if the skills money and desire is there. I understand that's a big question but it only takes a moderate metal skill to do the kind of work you show so far.
This was posted before but it would be an eye opener just how far you could go with one. I know this is a GR4:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ja.../DeTomasoPanteraGR4#
This was posted before but it would be an eye opener just how far you could go with one. I know this is a GR4:
http://picasaweb.google.com/Ja.../DeTomasoPanteraGR4#
That is great work Mike...
quote:Originally posted by Pantera 1887
Absolutely amazing work!
Mike
How many hours do you figure that took ?
quote:
Alot no doubt. I don't think I would go that far with a car but it does have a lot of good photos of different areas. As I work on mine every part looks re-creatable. Just hate to see cars parted out which in scope are re-buildable. It looks daunting, all I saw were photos in the tub area but all of that looked do-able with moderate skills.
The problem I see here is what's not seen. This car is rusting from the inside out. There are many area's that can be fixed but it's the inside area's that cannot be seen that make me doubt it's worth the time and cost involved to repair.
I would hate to see Michel invest the time and money into a situation only to be a temporary band aide in the sense of what will show up 2-3 years from now and have to go through this again.
When I see what this car needs I would find it hard to trust the integrity of the car down the road unless it went through what your post did with that link that shows the repairs that were done to that Pantera and it's refabrication.
It's bad enough we bought a car in this condition, I would not want to have to worry about Michel driving this car down the road and have it structurally unsafe unless it was totally gone through completely. I would not want to see Michel get hurt and know I could have stopped it from happening.
I haven't even removed the interior yet, god knows what I'm going to find under the carpets.
The man hour costs for fabricating and repairs would far out weigh the value of the of this car when completed I believe.
Now if this was a very rare Pantera such as a Push Button, GTS, 4 or 5, then yes, it might be worth the expense involved.
But with this car, I believe we would be just throwing good money after bad and chasing something that would be far more costly than it's worth.
I was faced with this EXACT situation and decided to sell (at a loss 
), my pre "L", so I understand completely. I took a loss of < $5K and estimate I would have 'lost' a minimum of > $10K or higher by going the restoration route. RUST = NOT GOOD
), my pre "L", so I understand completely. I took a loss of < $5K and estimate I would have 'lost' a minimum of > $10K or higher by going the restoration route. RUST = NOT GOOD
I certainly understand the task is not for everyone but it may be for some one.
Thanks to all for all the words of support.
I have mailed the sellervto see wheter we can come to an agreement. So far no news.
I will be pursuing this further if he does not respond. In that sense thanks for the people that have linked previous discussions with this gentleman, they will come in handy.
It is clear that I will consider an offer from someone who will venture into this project (the ground work has been done; for all to see, nothing hidden away. How about that for a thourough PPI.
But my main route will be in parting her out with the quality parts, then scrapping 01447 from the PROVAMO website and keeping the tag for old times sake. Next step is to then find a next project car.
I have had quite some intrest in people looking for parts. At least she will be put to good use.
Michel
Get a Lawyer who knows Panteras ...and there are a few on this board ... then see if anyone has a rear clip or is the whole car in this rusted condition ? Because the pics seem to focus on the rear of the car.
Ron
Ron
quote:But my main route will be in parting her out with the quality parts, then scrapping 01447 from the PROVAMO website and keeping the tag for old times sake. Next step is to then find a next project car.
I have had quite some interest in people looking for parts. At least she will be put to good use.
What do you mean by "scrapping 1447 from the PROVAMO website?" It's a registry intended to store information about known Panteras. This is valuable information to ADD to the PROVOMO registry.
If you're looking for another 'project' car, you may wish to hold onto this one until you find your next project car - you may already have the parts you will need for the next project car. Just a thought.
Last, I agree with the others that it's a shame to see a car parted out. The rust/damage pictures don't look that bad. If the rust is contained to this area, I'd recommend fixing it. But then again I haven't seen the car in person and, where there's smoke, there's usually fire. I'm sure Coz found more rust issues elsewhere on the car too - I remove the door strikers plates from the door jambs when I inspect a Pantera and shine a light in there to get a look how sound that area is.
I've seen cars where this area looked like the inside of a rusty ship's hull that had been sitting on the bottom of the ocean for 20 years - can see remnants of metal, but could not make out what they were or where/how they attached to anything else.
Keep us posted.
I did and it doesn't look good, this is why I said it is rusting from the inside out.
After the bead blasting, I got as far into it as I could without removing panels.
Thanks Garth and to ALL for the suggestions....They are all very much appreciated.
Coz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by garth66:
I remove the door strikers plates from the door jambs when I inspect a Pantera and shine a light in there to get a look how sound that area is.
After the bead blasting, I got as far into it as I could without removing panels.
Thanks Garth and to ALL for the suggestions....They are all very much appreciated.
Coz
[QUOTE]Originally posted by garth66:
I remove the door strikers plates from the door jambs when I inspect a Pantera and shine a light in there to get a look how sound that area is.
Let me just add my sentiments to the "I'm sorry this happened to you guys" group. Not to further fuel the fire, but it somehow is made worse by the "represenation" of another so-called car person. "InCARcerated" may be more appropriate.
We've been there in varying degrees. There's a guy in Tennessee to whom I'd like to have his nipples erased with a butane torch. But in all, we learn stuff, move on, develop a thicker skin and better radar to similar charletans, while earning a deeper trust to those deserving.
I'm sure this decision came with difficulty. The cost - we all hope - can be put behind you in the miles of enjoyment in your 'new' car. And a lot sooner, safer, more securely.
So Michel, the biggest nod to you is your attitude. Doesn't seem to be dampened terribly, nor as bitter as some might be tempted. (Small-minded vindictive me included!)
I guess if the "fun is in the hunt", you my friend get to hunt twice. We're glad to help.
We've been there in varying degrees. There's a guy in Tennessee to whom I'd like to have his nipples erased with a butane torch. But in all, we learn stuff, move on, develop a thicker skin and better radar to similar charletans, while earning a deeper trust to those deserving.
I'm sure this decision came with difficulty. The cost - we all hope - can be put behind you in the miles of enjoyment in your 'new' car. And a lot sooner, safer, more securely.
So Michel, the biggest nod to you is your attitude. Doesn't seem to be dampened terribly, nor as bitter as some might be tempted. (Small-minded vindictive me included!)
I guess if the "fun is in the hunt", you my friend get to hunt twice. We're glad to help.
When I stated scrap from Provamo, I mean indeed update it so that it is clear what happend to this car for all to see. I do not want to see 1447 come up again 5 years down the road tauting a "bare metal respray over bondo".
I am dissapointed on the attitude of the selller. He replied to my proposal in a way that tells me a lot. I am still undecided if I am going to post the reply. It is the sort of reply you can read anything into.
Perhaps what annoys me the most is that I dodged a few bullits (thanks to a couple of you) of rusted cars only to get hit by a ricochet. Did I expect to shell out some money on his car for rust repairs. YES. It was our intent to bring it to something I like 100%. Did we expect this type of rust and bodges NO. Its like the blue car posted by DOES 200. Good price but awful (to me) color and wheels. So there you go, buy it change this change that...
So all in all the condition of this car was misrepresented.
Do I want a lawyer? Yes I am in discussion through our legal department to see what we can do. But if anyone is willing to suggest a lawyer on the board please do so...I will contact him straight away.
Michel
quote:There's a guy in Tennessee to whom I'd like to have his nipples erased with a butane torch.
Seriously now Adams, tell us how you really feel.
I've dealt with a few such folks and I REALLY like your expression. Thanks for making me laugh!
Garth has a great suggestion here, just find another body shell as a candidate for all those parts you have. Wasn't PIM selling a couple project shells recently? Larry Stock has a couple bodies and he'd likley do a deal for yours in return as he can sell sheet metal parts (the front at least!).
Julian
Julian
Jerry at P.I. purchased the rear clip from my '74 wreck (firewall back). The frame was solid as was all of the sheet metal including the wheel houses and quarter panels. You might check with him if he still has it.
Try Brian Graham. In his Pantera parts catalog, he has, in the past advertised " A Chassis with Decklids and Doors Mil-Preparation" starting at $9800.00. His phone # is 714-283-3926. Chuck
quote:Originally posted by 4NFORD:
Jerry at P.I. purchased the rear clip from my '74 wreck (firewall back). The frame was solid as was all of the sheet metal including the wheel houses and quarter panels. You might check with him if he still has it.
I assume you would have Coz (a hero of mine that saved me bazillions of dollars with advice when I bought my car) do everything he is capable of. If he doesn't do that sort of fab work, put some serious thought into who will do it.
- Robert
Hi everybody,
No so new Canadian owner...
I had an Ebay confirmation that I had the car, when it was for sale....by the time I confirm the Ebay sale, (I took the night to think spending $22,000 for that car) Coz bought it. I bought another one, no 2012. The car was supposely complete...The asking price for the car that I bought, and the one Coz got assure me that big work has to be done to make these car reliable and trouble free. I already spent a lot of money, just on parts. It's a big difference, in cost, to do the work yourself instead of paying somebody to do it. It's make the difference that you could deal with it or not. This next summer, I'll have the most beautiful vacation that I ever had. I'll start working on that super sexy body of my forever dream car. My wife will be jalous, for sure. I'm sure that I'll have costly surprises but it's part of the game.
I should post pictures on my engine, when complete...
Salut la gang...
Serge
Serge
No so new Canadian owner...
I had an Ebay confirmation that I had the car, when it was for sale....by the time I confirm the Ebay sale, (I took the night to think spending $22,000 for that car) Coz bought it. I bought another one, no 2012. The car was supposely complete...The asking price for the car that I bought, and the one Coz got assure me that big work has to be done to make these car reliable and trouble free. I already spent a lot of money, just on parts. It's a big difference, in cost, to do the work yourself instead of paying somebody to do it. It's make the difference that you could deal with it or not. This next summer, I'll have the most beautiful vacation that I ever had. I'll start working on that super sexy body of my forever dream car. My wife will be jalous, for sure. I'm sure that I'll have costly surprises but it's part of the game.
I should post pictures on my engine, when complete...
Salut la gang...
Serge
Serge
Robert,
I'm waiting to hear the projection cost from a very reliable and quality body shop here in town that specializes in old time hot rods for the body restoration of this Pantera. I should know something by the end of the week.
I can do a lot of things, buy body work is not one of them. But I will over see the project and make sure every step is done correctly and looks correct.
Once I hear back from the body shop, Michel and I will compare the costs with the rear clip that PI has and see what makes more sense.
Thanks for the faith in me brother...That means a lot.
Glad I could help you through getting your Pantera....
I'm waiting to hear the projection cost from a very reliable and quality body shop here in town that specializes in old time hot rods for the body restoration of this Pantera. I should know something by the end of the week.
I can do a lot of things, buy body work is not one of them. But I will over see the project and make sure every step is done correctly and looks correct.
Once I hear back from the body shop, Michel and I will compare the costs with the rear clip that PI has and see what makes more sense.
Thanks for the faith in me brother...That means a lot.
Glad I could help you through getting your Pantera....
quote:Originally posted by Coz:
...but I will over see the project and make sure every step is done correctly and looks correct.
Thanks for the faith in me brother...That means a lot.
Glad I could help you through getting your Pantera....
It is key to have a knowledgeable person with a good eye oversee important work. I have learned that lesson while having my car worked on out of state.
Glad to see you continue to stay elbows deep in the Pantera world.
You kept me from giving in to my "gotta have it now" compulsion, and from buying the wrong car. So, thank you sir.
- Robert
The rear half of the body at PI Motorsports can be had for $3,000.00. This does not include the suspension. Let us know if this might work for you Coz. Congratulations again. I think you know we are trustworthy despite what may be written. Dave
All,
Not to inflame any emotions, but would a car that was cut in half and another half from another car installed still be a molested wreck,no matter how good of a job, an Honest owner would have to disclose this which would send possible buyers running. Just a thought!
Mark
Not to inflame any emotions, but would a car that was cut in half and another half from another car installed still be a molested wreck,no matter how good of a job, an Honest owner would have to disclose this which would send possible buyers running. Just a thought!
Mark
Technically in NY I think the Insurance Co's are the only ones who claim a total lost and tag a car unsalvagable. Then a salvage title is issued when someone proposes to fix the vehicle ... is my understanding of it ..but I;m not the expert ...But technically to fix a car 1/2 and 1/2 if done the right way ....should you disclose it ? The honest thing to do ..yes... but I have seen people replace fenders, 1/4 panels, doors, floors, hood and deck decklid .... what percentage of the car would that be ? sounds like more then 1/2. I would think that anyone talented enough to cut a car in 1/2 and put it back together ...it would be done properly and basically untraceable. The next thing to think about IS some states dont ALLOW this .. cutting frames and rewelding them .. so it may have to be cut in such a way that when its seperated and put back together its done as the factory would have done it ...and again not traceable.
Ron
Ron
Making one car of two damaged ones is called a "splitter" or a 'clipped car' and is accepted practice as long as the mod is done by competent people. I've driven several that handled well. In racing its not only accepted, its common. Adding a front or rear clip is OK in my book as long as the fact is known to a purchaser.
Now this is the KEY " competent people " is there some sort of certification, qualification, license ? Because if your going to drive it on a track at 170 mph ...you may want that .. because its required to set the toilet bowl in your house ? LOL
Ron
Ron