Ticking valves?

Several things come to mind here.

First. You seem to have eliminated the likeliness that the push rod tip and the rocker arms are at fault. But what you need to do to be sure is unbolt each rocker arm and examine the tip where it contacts the valve stem and the push rod. If there is a very distinct wear pattern of the valve stem on the rockeer arm, replace both the push rod and the rocker arm.

Next. Ford hydrauliclifters will eventually clogup mostly do to long periods of disuse and lack of regular oil changes. They have plungers in them that are pushed to the proper operating height by oil pressure. Often they will develope obstructions of gum deposits that restrict these internal movements to full height. They could be cleaned sonically but it is much less expensive just to change them.

Also. It is possible that someone installed a fast bleed-down hydraulic lifter like those made by Rhodes. Usually these are used with a race/radical timing event camshaft in a street used car to give it an acceptable idle. They would not be necessary with the stock camshaft and in fact would be the wrong lifter to use with a stock camshaft but who knows what the last owner had done to the car? Some people have very strange concepts of what is correct to do.

The Rhoads lifters require an adjustable valve train of some sort. The only way to have an adjustable valvetrain with the stock 351c bolt down pedestal design would be to use a shorter pushrod and use shims between the pedestal and the rocker arm. I doubt this is the setup that is in there but you would be the only one that would know at this point.

I would guess and say that the most likely solution to your problem is going to be to replace all of the lifters, pushrods and rocker arm assemblies.

Make sure that you use a engine oil that has plenty of ZDDP in it. I would also suggest that you use a full synthetic oil like Mobil 1. It is not going to have problems with breakdown from long periods of disuse. You will have to add ZDDP as an addative to it. It is formulated for the US market with the EPA emmissions requirements and ZDDP has been reduced in the oils drastically in order to protect the catalitic converters.

If you don't use it, it is very likely that you will have a valve train/lifter/camshaft failure. In fact, lack of ZDDP could be a contributing cause to your current problem.

Good luck.

Thanks for your thorough answer.

Some comments.
The oil was very black when I received the car (the car has been stationary for maybe years), so I changed it before driving it, I use normal 15/40 oil. I'm not sure what ZDDP is, haven't heard about it over here in Denmark?
I don't think someone put race-type lifters in, everything else on the engine is stock as far as I can see.
I could change lifters, arms and pushrods, but before doing that:
1. Can I drive the car as it is until it get's worse, or will I damage it?
2. Do you think my cam is OK, the fact that one lifter "looked" to have lower lift, is that important, or can't I check it like that?
3. Do I need to change all 16 is just one is noisy? Is one at fault, or is it only the first and the rest will come later? (the engine is supposed to have driven only 50000 miles, but you never know, but compression looks good, no oil in exhaust)
If I'm to use shims, I'd need a longer pushrod, not shorter? Or do the shims go on top?

Thanks

Re-re-re-reading your answer, my suggestion would be to drive the car with the new oil a few times, heat it up properly, this may get rid of the gum if there's any in the lifter (optimist). If that doesn't help, 16 new lifters? I doubt (but will check) the rocker arms and pushrods can be worn already.

Thanks

ZDDP is an addative that is normally found in engine oil. It's purpose is to provide a special lubrication for the high pressure contact areas between the camshaft lobes and the lifter.

There has been much talk here in the US in the "aftermarket" circles about camshaft/lifter failures. These failures are associated with the reduction of ZDDP in engin oils.

If you don't heed the warning, you will have a failure. The only question is when. ZDDP adative is $10 a can. Which is cheaper a can of ZDDP or an entire new camshaft assembly?

There is an oil addative made to help with "gummed up" hydraulic lifters. The problem with it is basically an oil viscosity reduceder (kerosene). Ford recommended a 20-50 multiviscosity oil for the Boss 351. Do you want to reduce the viscosity of your oil to save a set of lifters?

Yes, you can loosen up the lifters by driving them. My experience with Ford V-8s is that is a waiste of time. The lifters are usually permanently collapsed.

If you can identify the lifter, yes you can replace just that one, BUT you have to pull the valve covers and intake manifold to do just one lifter, why not do them all?

The valve adjustment can't be simpler. You just bolt them down and you are done.

The camshaft lobes on the engines that I have seen with these conditions are usually very noticibly worn. Many are pitted.

I have changed just lifters, and valve train as described here, and found that there is still valvetrain noise because the camshaft lobes are worn excessively.

Incidentally. Little of this has to do with mileage. It has to do with damage from disuse and seems to be irreversable.

However. That is just my opinion from my personal experiences.

I've looked in books to understand the rocker arm system, and I got an idea, stop me if it's totally crazy.
I have the rocker arms that apparently started in 1978, with fulcrum and the digit 7 stamped on them. Now, if I find which valve it is, why not grind a little of the bottom of the fulcrum off? That would adjust the preload without dismantling a lot and it would be free.

Could it work?

It would work but it would be a patch and a band aid for a more seriuos problem.

As mentioned if this car has been sitting .. I recommend using a high detergent oil or a engine flush to UNSTICK the bad lifter ... if it turns out that it dont go away .. the ebst thing to do is measure the distance the rocker travels up and down as compared to the others .. not while running ...but just by clicking the engine over ..if the distance is the same it a sticky lifter .. if its not then its a worn lobe.

Ron

I have worked on these engines with mileage in the 30,000 to 40,000 mile use and have seen very worn rocker arm tips on them.

It is a high friction area.

Many popular engine oils will loose viscosity after one run at the drag strip.

The car will go out with 100psi oil pressure and come back to the pits with 10psi. Change the oil and it's back up.

3,000 miles with a conventional oil is all the engine should go. After that you are creating wear, on items like the rocker arms.

Unfortunately on a used car how do you know how many times the oil was changed? 50,000 miles? Maybe only 5 times.

Yes you can "mill" the bottom of the rocker arm pedestal .010" and if that works then you probably are fine.

Personally I don't like to do this stuff even once. I would look at a set of Ford Racing roller tip rocker arms now, put hem in, change the lifters to hi-rev hydraulics and be done with the thing forever.

The Cleveland valve train has a certain amount of "clack" to it naturally, due to the canted valve geometry, and some Clevelands "clack" more than others. But the clack I'm referring to is not the same as one loud distinct "tick" which would indicate a problem. If you have a collapsed lifter or a worn lobe/lifter, then when that particular lifter is on the base circle, the pushrod will be loose, and I don't mean mean you can twirl it with your fingers, I mean you can rattle it up and down between the rocker arm and the lifter.

One other thing may possibly cause one particular lifter to make noise, if the valve it is actuating has problems, like sticking in its guide, or a bent stem, or it is getting ready to drop.

One other thing to be aware of, a spun rod bearing can make the same sound as a bad lifter. I've seen even the best mechanics mistake one for the other.

My advice is do not drive the car any further, tear the motor down until the true source of the problem is diagnosed, and fix it.

If one lifter is varnished up to the point of collapsing, all 16 lifters are varnished up just as badly. If a lifter "face" is shot, the camshaft lobe will be shot too. If you have to replace the cam, consider converting to a roller cam, also consider roller rocker arms a must. And get a good cam drive gear set, the best being the Roll Master. The harmonic balancer on your 30 year old motor is also a bomb that can explode at any moment. Please do not run your car with a 30 year old harmonic balancer.

cowboy from hell

quote:

One other thing to be aware of, a spun rod bearing can make the same sound as a bad lifter. I've seen even the best mechanics mistake one for the other.

George you hit that one on the head and to take it a little further ... a rist pin knock which I had that once on a cleveland sent that engine to the scap pile. It also a very similiar sound to a clacking valve.

Ron

Thanks for input, even though the more I read, the more worried I get

The sound is definitely from the right side of the engine, if it was bearing related I would guess it would come from the center of the engine, equally strong on both sides.

I know my suggestion is band aid, but my hope is to get it running, so I can fix all the other things on this car. And if it's bearing related, maybe a new crate engine would be easier?

I won't be able to analyze this further for the next several days as I had to dismantle the carb and I'm waiting for parts...

Also, check your headers for leaky gaskets and loose bolts. A header or gasket leak can sound surprisingly like a valve train noise.

Dan Jones

quote:

Also, check your headers for leaky gaskets and loose bolts. A header or gasket leak can sound surprisingly like a valve train noise.

Definitely! I had this situation on my Pantera - driver's side valve cover gasket was seeping oil, soaked the header gasket below, which started to leak. Sounded just like a valve tick.

Cheers!
Garth

Today I got the engine running again, and while the right valve cover was removed I used a stethoscope to try to find out which valve, if any, was more nosier. I thought they all sounded more or less the same, but one of the rocker arms on cylinder 4 was just a bit more noisy.

I took off the fulcrum, shaved of 0.01" approx with a file, put it back on, and guess what? The ticking noise is gone.

I know it's probably only band-aid, but at least I know that it's not bearing related. It's probably my camshaft going flat...

I guess that since I don't think I managed to file the fulcrum exactly straight, I may have to go in and re-torque it soon, don't you think? 25 ft-lbs, right?

Use Locktite on the thread and be done with it.

I am not an expert on these issues, but wouldn't the presence of file marks on a bearing surface be a concern? I would expect it to wear much more rapidly unless it had the same fine-ground polished surface a new part would have.

The filed surface doesn't move, it's stationary against the head. The part of the fulcrum where the rocker arm moves against is untouched.
So I don't think it's a problem?

Nope. Sorry, I should have realized that was the surface you reduced. Good luck, I hope it all stays together!