What is the point of 180 headers?

quote:

So back to part 2 of the question. Is there a simple bolt-on option for headers that use the original ANSA exhaust and make some positive difference in HP over stock?

Pat Mical's headers are recognized as being some of the best available. Many aftermarket headers have too small a collector.

Don't let A/C alone put you off 180"s there are options like going to a front mounted condenser or others have mounted it in front of the right rear wheel (Hall used to ofer a kit for this)

I am going to exit my pipes coming off of my 180's at a angle around the A/C and have them end out the factory openings in the rear of the car.
Kind of like this.

Yes, that is how to do it without moving the a/c. That is how mine are done and they work fine.

quote:

Originally posted by 72red:
So back to part 2 of the question. Is there a simple bolt-on option for headers that use the original ANSA exhaust and make some positive difference in HP over stock? or should I just stick with the surface rusted but solid stock headers? I like the sound of the 180s but I also like the idea of air-conditioning. It is an interesting topic and I have never seen 180s used in any other application.

All of the venders sell a header that will replace the factory header and bolt to your original ANSA's. PI who sponsors this forum sells one that is a design that has been proven.
Hall, Pantera Parts Connection and pretty much everyone sells something that will work for you.
Ceramic coating is a popular choice then you won't have to worry about rust any more.
A popular choice is the GTS headers and Muffler combo. Great sound.
There are a number of mufflers available also to replace the ANSA's offered by the vendors.
Do some searching on the vendor sites and you will come up with something.

quote:

Originally posted by 72red:
So back to part 2 of the question. Is there a simple bolt-on option for headers that use the original ANSA exhaust and make some positive difference in HP over stock?

The stock tail pipes between the headers and the mufflers are too small. The GTS exhaust system increases the diameter of the tail pipe tubing to 2 3/8" or 2 1/2". The GTS exhaust uses ansa mufflers, looks stock, the headers have 2" primaries. Its a good bolt-on upgrade.

quote:

Originally posted by 72red:
I have never seen 180s used in any other application.

Now you have

OK CB. Now you did it! Either I just took drugs or I want to after looking at this picture. Oh wow man! Is this this upside down or is it me?

Look at all the pretty colors man!

Here is a undercar 180 set in a Nissan Z with a chev engine.

180's are also popular in some sprint car classes. Howe and Dawson Racing Headers both make designs for all makes of engines with either RH or LH exit.

I had a friend who had a 70 Boss 302 race car. He had a set of Doug's headers out of the catalog that were 2-1/8" primaries and 180 degrees. Every other tube crossed over.
There was no power steering on the car because there was no room for it.

Anyine have any pics of Pat Micals 180's ... for a windsor with C heads ? Which Vendor is he ?


Ron

Pat is in Tyngsboro, MA. DBA Performances Auto Technologies. Phone 978-758-6023 or 978-649-2211.
I don't think his are 180's though.

First let me say that the 180's that Brooke has been making in his thread are absolutly a work of art. Absolutly well done. Don't forget to check those out.

When some one says 180's gain 30-40hp the first thing I have to ask is how much of that comes from the fact that the exhaust is far larger then the typical exhaust you can get through the suspension. We put big headers and put them through a small pipe back through big mufflers.

I would love to see a dyno with headers and exhaust the same primaries and collectors as 180's and see if there is a detectectable difference.

Second we are really talking two effects here. One is balancing out the exhaust pressure AND the harmonics of the pulse itself (scavege). The larger the exhaust and the shorter the system the less influence either of these will have.

I personally believe the 30-40 hp comes from the size of the exhaust more then the cross over pipe in a system with adequate primaries AND adequate exhaust further down. The effect of a cross over pipe will have a minimal effect with adequate pipes. Second, we have a pretty short over all exhaust system for the scavage effects to play much of a role. The effects of the scavage pulse are so pinned on cam and RPM that the effect typically improves a little on one RPM and is worse at another. The only way to know one way or another would be to actually dyno the car and change the exhaust system.

Beyound that what we are doing is largelly guesing. Which is ok. It's why we bought cars, to play with them.

And Damn, the headers Brooke is building are HOT!

Gary

If I had time we could some one in the area we could dyno a set of 180's and the exhaust I built:

From my drag racing experience with headers the length of the primary tubesand the length of the collector both have impact on low end torque and top end speed. Adjusting these accordingly for your application will yield and increase in desired performance. Also the cross over tube ... which in 180's equalizes the back pressure and produces performance also .. basically one v8 in comparison to 2 I4's. The data I compiled was on my 428 CJ Comet I shortened the primarys ..by running with no collector ..and putting a piece of tape along the side making one pass ..where the tape burned I cut them off ... the slipped on the collectors and repeaded ... then cut the collector. The perfromance was increased and picked up 4 tenths in the 1/4 ..not sure though technically .. what the reason was where the taped burned off ?

Later on I welded in a cross over tube and it added to my top end power and added mph in the 1/4 mile.... I didnt get to alter the location on the collector to see the difference.

Ron

Ron,

Are you going with 180's on either of your Panteras?

Michael

Micheal,

Probably on my project car .. but I want 8 into 1 collector. Trying to find out who and what are my options ... any ideas or info ?

Ron

Ron,

Yes, I have an article in an issue of PI from years ago about a guy in Europe with a black Pantera who did an 8 into 1 system. It looked very clean. I'll dig out the back issue if you want to check it out.

What is the benefit of 8 into 1 over 180's?

Michael

Here are some pics of Mike Trusty's 6 Merge Headers in his Pantera.
This is one of the most unique designs I found while doing my research.
They appear to combine the principles of a Tri-Y and a 180 system. They use a single exit.
They appear to be made out of stainless.
I would have loved to know the thought process and techniques that went into this set.

Absolutely Beautiful.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
... I have an article in an issue of PI from years ago about a guy in Europe with a black Pantera who did an 8 into 1 system. It looked very clean ...

The Pantera belongs to Bjorn Carapi, that's a 500+ cubic inch Rat Motor by the way.

Brooke,
Both you & Mike Trusty's 180's are AWSOME! You might e-mail Mike at "miketrusty at msn.com" with your questions about his 180's - maybe he will share some of his thoughts with you - won't hurt to try. Good Luck.

quote:

The Pantera belongs to Bjorn Carapi, that's a 500+ cubic inch Rat Motor by the way.

Those headers are really nice, beautiful lay out, I dig those pipes the most...