What is YOUR opinion of free loading businesses?

Hello David

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:

... calling some of the vendors or contributors "Free loaders" is not the best choice of words ...

I didn't name names. I haven't tarnished anybody's reputation, nor have I impacted their business or livelihood. I tried to make it clear that none of the contributors are free loading, the information they share has value.

However the term free loader will only bother a free loader ...

Let me take this opportunity to plug the value of banner ads; the forums are running over a million page views each and every month. The banner ads are on the web home page, the forum summary page, and at the head of each individual forum. A vendor's advertising dollar will reach far more people than a magazine ad ever could ... plus the banner ads are clickable, they take a person directly to the vendor's web site. A magazine ad can never do that. A guy wants to buy a part, he pulls out his cell phone anywhere or anytime; in the garage for instance. He navigates to the forums, clicks on a banner ad and he has the vendor's parts information and phone number instantly.

quote:

Originally posted by adoberetreat:

... We are all aware that you have kicked off and banned some participants here because they expressed an opinion that you didn't like ...

Nobody has ever been banned for their opinion. I don't discuss the particulars of those who are banned with anyone. We are a professionally run club. Each person who "we" take action against, had been warned, it was explained to them what they were doing that was unacceptable, they were asked politely to alter their behavior or attitude, and when they refused we (those of us behind the scenes) made a group decision to take action. Selfish reasons have never been a part of any decision, there are checks and balances here behind the scenes.

There are a few people who have been banned, that contacted me behind the scenes, talked maturely about their behavior that lead to them being banned, and they are back as members today. Those who are still banned have never accepted their own culpability, its always that malevolent administrator who woke up one morning and just had it in for them. My teenagers had the same story. Some people have no conscience about sullying the name of another person ... but then a member's attitude and perspective are the issues behind each action we take.

Its really too bad that you would believe pettiness of me. Stranger that you bring it up in this context???
.

George,

As many have said, I appreciate greatly what you have provided the DeTomaso community with this site. I would be happy to contribute financially to keep it going without being a burden to you and your family.
I will always continue to use my experience to help others on the forum when I can.

Thanks,
Ron

George, I can not say enough good things about this site and the good members that are here. This has been an valuable resource for our hobby. That said I don't think it should continue to be a financial burden on you. As a suggestion, how about a simple $10 yearly membership if you wish to sell parts etc. $50 for each car ad one places. If that does not generate enough revenue then a small membership fee I support. We all back you 100% and want to enable you to continue to support the Pantera community with this site.

Hi George, I must say here in the UK we have nothing to compare with this site, being a complete novice both mechanically and historically with this beautiful marque I personally would not have been able to do half the work I have done on my cars.

The knowledge and passion shared between the members is inspiring, I have not met anyone in person other than UK members on this site, yet I feel through this site I am talking with close friends who want me to succeed in my projects.

When I think I have found a better way to tackle a problem I look back in the history and find someone has already done that, where else could this happen, not on any Other sites that I know of and so easy to negotiate.

Let me tell you something that your site has done personally for me, a member had been buying original parts over some time for his Mangusta, he noted that a job lot of parts were actually from my Goose, he contacted me because of my registration with your site and Now I am reunited with my original wheel nuts, drip tray, condensor fan, motor and brackets plus other electrical connectors etc... how would this have been possible without your site.

Therefore if a charge is made to be a member, to purchase or sell anything, I would be the first to accept this, the history alone which goes back years is priceless,
I applaud your dedication George, you deserve a medal

George & Debbie,
A heartfelt thank you, many of us do not say it enough. I have been here since 2001, this is a great resource for the DeTomaso community.

Just my 2 cents;
Maybe put up a go fund me, you should not be in the red. As for the people who make "money" from the site by selling items (not one offs like me offering something here before I dump it on evil bay) please consider contacting George and Debbie and working something out.

quote:

This may be a touchy subject for you, but please feel welcome and safe to speak your opinion.

George,

You asked for our opinions, and assured us we were "safe" if we did just that. So....

I do find myself wondering what you mean by "safe". "Safe" from what? Based on my previous, personal experience, I am a little concerned with what is behind your use of that word "safe".

But I will take you at your word, your Cowboy Code of Honor, that I am "safe" to post my opinions as long I do so in a manner compliant with the website's Terms of Service. BTW, for those that are interested, those terms can found at:

pantera.infopop.cc/eve/tos

==================

As noted in my earlier post in this thread, your initial post called out un-named "freeloaders", asked for our opinions on the issue, but left it up to us to somehow divine just what a "freeloader" is. I posted and asked you for clarity but received none. I PM'd you asking for clarity and again received none; although you did send a four word PM response.

Since I have received no clarification, I have no basis for an informed opinion on the "freeloader" issue and I therefore find it wisest to withhold comment.

However, I found this in the PI website's "Terms of Service" and think it appropriate to introduce to that topic:

"Vendors are welcome to use the Community News Forum to inform members about Pantera or De Tomaso specific parts or services available. Vendors may post questions aimed at the general forum membership in Alejandro's Neighborhood Pub forum. De Tomaso cars for sale may be advertised in the forums designed for that purpose."



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I have noted this thread has morphed to include another topic not initially introduced by you -

How to improve the PI financial situation.

Since this topic diversion has continued unedited, and has not been moved to another topic thread, I assume such discussion is acceptable to this thread and I will add my 2¢.


Let me first say I truly enjoy and appreciate this forum. It is far more active and informative than the POCA email-list. While POCA does have a very similar forum available through their club website, it is a forum that died before birth, and will remain dead until the email-list is discontinued. But I digress.

I admire anyone who is brave enough to attempt to enter the business world with a privately-owned and operated venture. Many (most?) fail, sometimes explosively and sometimes quietly in the night. I'd hate to see PI fall to that fate. With that thought in mind, here are my opinions and suggestions regarding PI's financial situation.

••••••
You stated PI carries a $130.00 a month cost for a business telephone line. That seems very excessive in this day and age of very competitively priced cellular phone service. Perhaps there are particulars to your PI business line that justify that amount. Yes, no? In any case, perhaps a day spent researching other, less expensive, telephone line options could find a more frugal provider that would leave money in the PI account balance.

••••••
On a related topic, one I know nothing about, could your website expenses be reduced by switching to another provider? Is it possible to self-host your website? If so, would an initial equipment outlay to allow self-hosting result in long-term reduced hosting expenses?

I imagine this forum has members that can answer those questions. If so, please speak up and let George know if he has better options than the current status quo.

••••••
The forum's only direct income stream, AFAIK, is the banner advertisement at the top of some pages. Published rates are $100 per ad, per month. There are currently two advertisers. Just two.

From my time as PCNC Motorsports Coordinator, during which I organized five two-day track events at the Las Vegas and Reno Fun Rallies, I know how hard it is to get Pantera vendors to part with any of their money for advertising purposes. The majority of the sponsorship support for the PCNC Speed Trials actually came from club members, NOT the Pantera vendors. Most vendors are well established and well known, to the point where they feel, probably correctly, that their business runs just fine with no outlay for advertising. Might it run better with advertising? Maybe, but I was continually unable to convince them of that during my Speed Trials activities.

George, how recently have you approached the vendors for advertising on the PI website? The economic downturn ten years ago has subsided, things are better for many. Perhaps now some vendors might consider a banner ad that was financially not practical some years ago? What about a smaller, less expensive ad? What about selling an ad that appears every other month? How about offering the vendors a November-December special ad rate? Making ads more affordable might attract another vendor or two, even if just seasonally.

••••••
I have always thought PI exists as a separate business enterprise. You and Debbie also have Sespe company as the seller/vendor of your PI clothing, publications and accessories. I visited Sespe.net and found the following:

We maintain Pantera International's online forums (the De Tomaso Forums).

We maintain Pantera International's website.

Now I am not sure what is meant by "maintain", but perhaps that means the Sespe income helps offset the PI forum costs?

In any case, IMHO your Sespe business is SERIOUSLY under-promoted. The ONLY link to Sespe merchandise is on the single home page of PI. I am quite sure I am not the only forum member who signs on to the forum using a desktop bookmark, one that takes me directly to the forums. That means NO views of the home page and no way to select a link to the Sespe merchandise. Even when viewing the home page, the link to the Sespe merchandise is obscurely hidden amongst the multiple home page links. There is a lot of empty space on the home page; perhaps listing the Sespe link more prominently, with some merchandise photos, would increase Sespe visibility on the home page?

But just that single home page link to Sespe means exposure to potential buyers is VERY obscure and limited.

The forums have a separate section for "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale".

For the past two years, Debbie has made one or two pre-Christmas posts, in "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale", highlighting the merchandise available through Sespe. Other than those Christmas promotion posts, despite all the merchandise Sespe has available, there has been ZERO promotion of Sespe in the "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale" subject, a subject that is tailor-made for such promotion.

Talk about missed opportunities!!

George, how about?....

A sticky in the "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale" subject so people seeking such items can be made aware of the Sespe merchandise without having to find the one link on the home page?

Could that sticky incorporate a scrolling series of merchandise photos? Could scrolling photos be incorporated in a new, more prominent home page Sespe link?

How about a monthly special now and then to quickly move some of the stagnant, overstocked or odd-sized merchandise? Post in both the Pub and For Sale sections for better visibility?

How about more seasonal, Christmas-like Sespe-promotions, perhaps prior to the Fun Rally, or Concorso, when owners might like to attend those events in some new clothing?

How about Sespe creating an eBay account/store/auctions for selling Sespe merchandise?

======================

I sincerely wish to see the PI forum remain available and active for owners and enthusiasts around the world.

To that end, I have presented this epistle of my opinions and ideas in the hope they, or ideas suggested by them, can provide some relief to the financial woes PI is apparently experiencing.

Sincerely,

Larry



P.S. - Some may be wondering about the word Sespe. The Sespe Formation is "a widespread fossiliferous sedimentary geologic unit in southern and south central California in the United States." The area incorporates the Sespe Wilderness area, the Sespe (California) condor sanctuary and 61 mile long Sespe creek. George lived close to that area prior to moving to Ventura.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

... Some may be wondering about the word Sespe. The Sespe Formation is "a widespread fossiliferous sedimentary geologic unit in southern and south central California in the United States." The area incorporates the Sespe Wilderness area, the Sespe (California) condor sanctuary and 61 mile long Sespe creek. George lived close to that area prior to moving to Ventura ...

The Sespe Wilderness was long known as the most primitive area in North America, they stopped using that description not too long ago, although I don't know why. Perhaps they've started considering bears as civilized residents. The Sespe is where they take the troublesome bears when they're removed from Yosemite and other such places in California ... because there is no encroachment from man. That's also why they chose it as the place to bring the California Condor back from extinction. Its the bird in the Sespe logo, the adult condors have a 10 foot wingspan. When we moved to Fillmore there were only a few Condors remaining alive. It used to be you only saw them in the sky above Fillmore, now you see them all over California. They're back from extinction. My children grew up hiking the Sespe.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

... I have noted this thread has morphed to include another topic not initially introduced by you -

How to improve the PI financial situation.

Since this topic diversion has continued unedited, and has not been moved to another topic thread, I assume such discussion is acceptable to this thread and I will add my 2¢ ...

Two cents? Thankfully it wasn't a dollar's worth.

Good Evening George, Sharkey here. Wow, eye opening responses for sure. I would like to help out, I would like to make a proposal. I would like to be a bimonthly advertiser. Why? Lord knows we can barely handle the mechanical end of Pantera Miami, we're buried. And major projects waiting. Body shop?? Buried even more so. A bimonthly will help the club monetarily, which is the objective of this email, not to drive more traffic here. We're all put one this earth to help one another. Let's give it a try. Hope others will do the same :-)
Shark

Hi Jack

Here's a link to our advertising information, look it over and please let me know if it sounds good to you.

A Pantera Miami banner ad sounds very good to me.

Forum Sponsorship

Hi,
How about dumping your land line existing business phone and getting the cheapest cell phone plan? You don't have to register it as a business phone, couldn't you just do it as another personal phone. Or even get a family plan to have the extra number. Or a business friend of mine has an 800 number ported to his personal cell phone. I don't think he even has an actual land line for that number anymore.

Very few businesses have a dedicated phone line anymore, if you have an internet connection then VOIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol) is virtually free and integrates with Microsoft Outlook and Skype for business services.

quote:

What about selling an ad that appears every other month?

quote:

I would like to be a bimonthly advertiser.

How about that?

I post a suggestion on how PI might attract new vendor advertising with a bi-monthly banner, and within 24 hours there is a post from a vendor requesting just such an option.

This is another example of the power of the De Tomaso Forums - collective minds joining together for the common good.

George, you're welcome.

Larry

In support of the forum and one of the sponsors.

I heard here last year about the electric power steer kit made by SACC, a few months later I put a post on the forum asking for info about it from those who had taken the plunge.

The replies prompted me to buy the kit, I had a little trouble fitting it that was self inflicted but I did ask Scott about where I had gone wrong, he did say that England was a bit far to troubleshoot over the telephone! but he took the time to sort me out.

Very Happy with the kit and the Forum, we don't have access to Pantera experts in the UK and the forum is the Number 1 place to start.

With the help of this forum almost anything can be done by ones self.

If there was an annual fee to gain entry here I would certainly be ready to put my hand in my pocket, and I bet lots of others would too.

Thanks George for your efforts, best Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by ItalFord:
George, I can not say enough good things about this site and the good members that are here. This has been an valuable resource for our hobby. That said I don't think it should continue to be a financial burden on you. As a suggestion, how about a simple $10 yearly membership if you wish to sell parts etc. $50 for each car ad one places. If that does not generate enough revenue then a small membership fee I support. We all back you 100% and want to enable you to continue to support the Pantera community with this site.

Well first off, HATS OFF TO GEORGE AND DEBBIE! I have always admired and appreciated the great job done managing, administering, and advising George has done over the past decade on this site. Although I do wish George would put in his "two bits" more often. To my knowledge there is no better site for the Pantera Community, hands down and nothing EVEN COMES CLOSE! I can also say that this site is probably the "BEST SITE" of any FORUM/site I've ever had the privilege of participating in. Bar none, the content from this site over the years has made my Pantera hobby extremely satisfying. The guys that are regularly on this site are a huge asset in their contributions and always, for the most part, well mannered and respectful of others, and that's due to George setting an expectation of what he wants and will tolerate on his site.

Second, I like what ItalFord has said above. I have no issue seeing banner adds. I think the products would be valuable to me and others, and get me off my butt to finish some small projects. As far as Scott and SACC Restorations goes, he's top notch and should have a banner if he's contributing. He's got some amazing products that work great, and he's first rate in his business practices. Unfortunately, I have no experience with Mr. Fiat, didn't know he existed and would have loved to have seen a banner add so I could get exposure to what he offers.

George, I know what ever you choose to do will be measured, well thought out and will enhance the site and our experience. Cheers to you and Debbie!

quote:

Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:

As far as Scott and SACC Restorations goes, he's top notch and should have a banner if he's contributing.......... Unfortunately, I have no experience with Mr. Fiat, didn't know he existed and would have loved to have seen a banner add so I could get exposure to what he offers.

In my earlier post, I noted, (bold text added):

The forum's only direct income stream, AFAIK, is the banner advertisement at the top of some pages.

============

I sent Tom a PM and it turns out he has never noticed the SACC and Mr. Fiat banner advertisements.

Tom gets his De Tomaso Forums exposure by means of the emailed updates. He views the forum threads of interest to him and said he usually is not on the home page.

The banner ads are on the home page, the Forums Summary page, and the home page for each of the Forum sub-forums.

BUT the ads are NOT on the individual threads within a sub-forum.

So the De Tomaso Forums has a regular user, but because that member only views individual threads of interest to him, that user never sees the banner advertisements because the individual threads do not HAVE the advertising.

How many other members have, month after month, the same NON-exposure to any De Tomaso Forums banner advertising?

===============

George, IMHO, I think adding the banner advertisements to the top of each sub-forum individual thread would result in increased ad-clicks for your advertisers.

More ad clicks should help to keep current advertisers, and increased historical clicks data might help convince new vendors to buy a banner.

That would be a good thing, right?

Larry