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The amount of direct-promotion and second party promotion of commercial businesses has increased recently. None of the promotion is coming from businesses who sponsor the forums (support them financially). Most don't contribute content to the forums either ... outside of self promotion. It appears that in two of the situations I have on my mind members have been asked to post topics promoting products or events on behalf of commercial businesses.

SACC Restorations and Mr. Fiat sponsor the forums. They've proven their integrity, they've proven they care about your interests, and they shoulder a portion of the club's financial burden along with Debbie and I. These two businesses support your interests, with the hope that you'll return that support by sending your business their way. Please support SACC and Mr. Fiat. The balance of the cost of these forums (and the club's monthly budget) comes out of the fixed monthly retirement that Debbie and I have to live on.

There are 3 businessmen who regularly contribute to the forums by sharing their knowledge: Mike Mayberry, Jack Sharkey, and Ron McCall. As far as we're concerned these guys have earned their place here. A fourth, Kirk Evans, contributes his knowledge sometimes ... we wish he would consider contributing more often. When he does contribute, its always good stuff. We hope these guys know that we care about them, and respect their place in the De Tomaso community.

Businesses advertised within these forums outside of those six are free loaders. These other merchants have chosen to keep their money in their pockets, and let SACC, Mr. Fiat, Debbie and I shoulder the expense of these forums alone. SACC and Mr. Fiat haven't complained. Debbie and I aren't complaining either, we love you guys. But what you don't know is that a few of these free loading businesses have been asked to sponsor the forums via banner advertisement, and they didn't even have the integrity to honor us with a reply, they've just left us hanging unanswered. We haven't identified them, we've never sullied the reputation of anyone. Those who've left us hanging are taking advantage of even our silence. Some of these businesses are among those you guys promote as being so great to do business with.

Have you experienced the results of the changes in the US tax laws? Every Pantera business and 351C business now has the extra money to sponsor your club and forums!

Statistics prove that you folks have chosen these forums as your source for information and as a way to communicate with each other. For that reason these forums and this club exist today, to support you in the non-commercial way we do. We've established a format that is non-commercial, and that operates on as low of a budget as possible. What you may not understand however is that the price of the forums grows a bit each and every month. Even the price of the club phone went up last year, AT&T is charging us $130 month for our phone service! LOL Roll Eyes Debbie and I cannot support the club (and forums) from our pocket indefinitely, we live on a fixed income. There is no emergency nor drama. But these are your forums, Debbie and I as the caretakers would like to know your opinions. Most internet sites do not allow free loaders; do we continue to allow the free loaders? If not, are you willing to live with the consequences? This may be a touchy subject for you, but please feel welcome and safe to speak your opinion.

Keep in mind that everyone reads these forums! The freeloaders will read your opinions too.
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You and Debbie have done all of us a HUGE service by maintaining this forum to the benefit of us all. It’s a community and we need to work together to keep it going. Sometimes that means taxes.

The forum has a model that seems to work very well. There are several levels of membership ranging from free to lifetime. Everyone can read and post at no cost, but ONLY paid members (and the rates are low) can post items for sale. In addition to ad fees, Manufacturers and “Pros” have a different class of membership. Importantly the level of “commitment” is shown as part of the member profile so you can see who is truly supporting things.

I’ll be the first to say I’m willing to sign up as paid member number 1 when you (if you) decided to go that route.
I can't say I have noticed the other 'freeloading' businesses you mention, I will have to pay closer attention now you have raised the point.

Personally I don't think the sponsoring businesses are highlighted enough. It would be great to see SACC or Mr. Fiat (or any other future sponsor) have a section where they have an opportunity to review products etc. or at a minimum a rotating banner with monthly specials. A dedicated section would probably need to be of limited open discussion to avoid everyone jumping in with their alternative.

I have also used the forum to sell wares (Reproduction De Tomaso signs) and would be open to a percentage of sales going to PI, that way the members support the forum with their purchase. I'd rather you have the fees than eBay! Perhaps a classified section could work that way for all? Most people list on here with a note offering parts prior to eBay or with an eBay link anyway! It's an honor payment system, but the likes of Racing Junk seem to make it work.

Mark used GT40's as a comparison and I'm a lifetime member there, the $300 was a small investment IMO and I expect I'll contribute again before my 'lifetime' is up...

That's my 2 cents...
Being an administrator on another site, I see what you're getting at George. There is a classified section for those wanting to sell personal items that have accumulated over the years, and that should stay free, then there are those that are actively buying, or making parts for resale as a business, which is not allowed without a sponsorship to the site. Could be a yearly fee, or whatever. If you feel this is what you want to do, then you should state it in the header of the forum, or a sticky in the parts for sale forum. Those that don't want to pay the fee for sponsorship, can sell their items at a discount to one of the vendors that does. I have done this on a part I had manufactured. Yes, it is nice to have no costs associated with selling, but there are darn few places that allow it. Everybody has to pay.
If you want to generate funds for site management, I vote for raffles !

Two bucks a ticket for a chance to win Pantera parts Thumbs Up! !

Get a part worth 50 bucks, 50 entries at 2 bucks each and the site makes 50 bucks and someone gets a great Pantera part for two bucks. Thumbs Up!
It's fun and will generate site traffic for drawing nite...
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Hi George and Debbie,
Many of us value these communities as places to commiserate with other car crazy nuts, share projects, techniques, tips/tricks which has value to us.

So, I'm with many of the opinions already shared;

- Freeloading can be screened out w/ site restrictions. Businesses should certainly have commercial costs associated with generating revenue on the forum.

- As with Mark Charlton & Joules, I too am a paid member on the GT40s forum, and can only ditto word for word Mark's remarks. I seldom frequent it in recent years, heck ....I hardly have time to visit this forum. But, I still value these forums when I can find time to join in on discussions.

- I think PLT-1's raffle idea is a cool and fun way to generate revenue on a regular... weekly or monthly basis. Might be something worth considering. Heck, maybe even contact Summit racing for example and see if they would be interested in bartering parts for ad banners, then you could raffle parts w/ no true money costs to you.

Honestly, I'm disheartened to know that your management of the site is net-negative for you two. I hope you guys find a means you feel acceptable to you to, which at min achieve net-zero, so it stays fun for you and doesn't impact your retirement income.

Best, Rob
I have visited this forum for several years before i purchased my Pantera #3629 last year.
Without this forum and the contributors who impart their valuable knowledge, it would have taken me decades to learn the basics of the Pantera and at a great cost I certainly would not mind paying a fee to subscribe.Thank you George and Debbie for what you do!

You lost me in the first paragraph. I honestly have no idea, apparently like Julian, what you are viewing as freeloaders, self promotion and secondhand promotion. I just honestly have no clue.

I can't do anything with the six paragraphs that follow because I do not understand what they are based upon.

Perhaps a private message to me that fills me in on exactly what you are referencing will help?

Thank you for keeping this forum alive. It's existence is important to me, for several reasons.
I too don't see who the freeloaders are. Promotion for services that's related to the DeTomaso ownership is welcome to me. I feel it's a plus and contributes to a living Forum. Often I see vendors contribute to discussions. Of course, sometimes followed by solutions off their business. No problem, I would say. Again, welcome!

Your problem is financing this excellent Forum. I don't see the solution in charging some users just because they are offering something for sale, as long as it's relevant.
I suggest you try promoting an optional donation, and see how that turns out. I for sure are more than willing to. The sum? I really have no clue right now.

A raffle could of course be fun, but not very convenient for us living far away. We have to pay quite a lot for receiving something we may not need.
I have also sold parts on other forums that were good parts but, by the time you pay me and shipping it's kinda' zero net.
In those cases, I have asked for the buyer to send ten bucks or some reasonable token fee, to the moderator and pay shipping, when the moderator says ship it, I bill for shipping and send it....

These are parts that, if another Pantera owner was standing here, I would probably give away. Too good to throw out, but really not worth that much.

So dig around, start a bidding war to benefit the moderator for those... stickers, old fan motors, a new "T" shirt, I'm sure a vendor would throw in a T shirt, etc..

For those parts that are of hight value, how about this "Buy this part and ten bucks to the moderator".... Etc...

I will dig around for some stuff myself...
Hi George,
This site is in my opinion in the top 5% of similar sites and that's because of you and your efforts so I would be more than happy to pay for the privilege of being a member but be aware whilst your time is valuable as is everyone else's if you add a subscription service then you will HAVE to spend your time collecting the money which I reckon will bore you and I believe you'll end up giving us less of your great advice which will be to the detriment of this great site.
Perhaps you should try to get a figure in your mind for you to continue and let us know what that is as I believe it would only take a few hundred of us to contribute say at $50 each that would amount to $10,000, I have made up these figures as an example and am not trying to influence you in any way.
What I DON'T want is for this site to shut down and for that I am willing to pay as i believe many others are.
Thanks for your efforts.

This forum has been extremely helpful and valuable to me in my pursuit of rebuilding my Pcar. You and Debbie have done a great job making this forum easy to use, informative, interesting and maybe most important, civil. We all know how dysfunctional some forums can be.

As far as 'freeloading' businesses go I have not notice much of that. I’m sure you are much more sensitive to that than anyone. Not sure what can be done about that unless you change the forum format. I doubt that you want to become a forum hardball police person to enforce the rules.

IMHO, this forum, for the most part, should be left as is. Forums with multi-levels of membership are confusing for my simple mind. Strongly encouraging real business to financially support this forum is a good idea. Maybe they need a warning of some sort. Joules’ idea of a special section for supporting vendors makes sense. This forum is a valuable advertising resource for related business and they should contribute in some way.

IMHO, we all should show some support on some level. Everyone here can afford to make a voluntary donation once a year. I have no idea what the yearly expenses are to run the forum but some voluntary donation would surely help. Maybe a yearly fund drive like what Wikipedia does might ease the financial burden. It can be run until you reach the target amount. Just my 2 cents.

Personally, I would hate to see this forum drastically change or disappear. The financial burden should not be all yours. If it takes paid membership count me. PM sent for instruction on where to send my donation.
With all respect I don't think calling some of the vendors or contributors "Free loaders" is the best choice of words, even though I do sympathize with your plight. Remember, this is your forum, your website. We are all aware that you have kicked off and banned some participants here because they expressed an opinion that you didn't like. While I don't love that tactic, I can't really say a word because at the end of the day it's your site and you are free to do with it what you will. Likewise, it was your decision to have merely a voluntary donation system so if someone decides not to financially contribute to your site, well remember, it was voluntary and not mandatory per your rules, right?

Since its your site and your rules, its incumbent on you to set up a system to make sure you don't have to dig into your retirement each month. You can set up a modest yearly membership if you want. You can charge a commission when people sell items here. You can charge vendors more since they are a business enterprise if you deem that appropriate. You can do whatever you like actually. (For my part, I decided to buy some DeTomaso baseball caps, some t-shirts, and a beautiful DeTomaso Windbreaker from your site because I felt I should contribute in some small way to your forum-I suggest that you put these for sale items that you offer on the FIRST PAGE to get more attention-they are really great items! After you set up a plan to make ends meet, depending on how much you charge, you may lose some members. Or you may lose a few commercial contributors. Or you may lose nobody at all. That's the free market at work. I'm sure you'll be just fine if the charge is relatively modest. And when you set this mandatory financial contribution for people who use this forum, you won't have to pick and choose who you consider cheapskates.
I know you and Debbie have dedicated a lot of effort and time in to this over the years. Thank you again for that. So while some think it's all up to you they should also respect all that you have done. And maybe they have, let's look at options. Add a "Please contribute" option. There are a lot of sites that to this. Don't be too proud to ask for money, (the government asks every month and we cannot say no). I know I will contribute. How can we get the younger kids involved? I'm one of them just getting my car 5 years ago, Anyway. food for thought. That's my 3 cents after inflation.
Hello David


Originally posted by adoberetreat:

... calling some of the vendors or contributors "Free loaders" is not the best choice of words ...

I didn't name names. I haven't tarnished anybody's reputation, nor have I impacted their business or livelihood. I tried to make it clear that none of the contributors are free loading, the information they share has value.

However the term free loader will only bother a free loader ...

Let me take this opportunity to plug the value of banner ads; the forums are running over a million page views each and every month. The banner ads are on the web home page, the forum summary page, and at the head of each individual forum. A vendor's advertising dollar will reach far more people than a magazine ad ever could ... plus the banner ads are clickable, they take a person directly to the vendor's web site. A magazine ad can never do that. A guy wants to buy a part, he pulls out his cell phone anywhere or anytime; in the garage for instance. He navigates to the forums, clicks on a banner ad and he has the vendor's parts information and phone number instantly.


Originally posted by adoberetreat:

... We are all aware that you have kicked off and banned some participants here because they expressed an opinion that you didn't like ...

Nobody has ever been banned for their opinion. I don't discuss the particulars of those who are banned with anyone. We are a professionally run club. Each person who "we" take action against, had been warned, it was explained to them what they were doing that was unacceptable, they were asked politely to alter their behavior or attitude, and when they refused we (those of us behind the scenes) made a group decision to take action. Selfish reasons have never been a part of any decision, there are checks and balances here behind the scenes.

There are a few people who have been banned, that contacted me behind the scenes, talked maturely about their behavior that lead to them being banned, and they are back as members today. Those who are still banned have never accepted their own culpability, its always that malevolent administrator who woke up one morning and just had it in for them. My teenagers had the same story. Some people have no conscience about sullying the name of another person ... but then a member's attitude and perspective are the issues behind each action we take.

Its really too bad that you would believe pettiness of me. Stranger that you bring it up in this context???

As many have said, I appreciate greatly what you have provided the DeTomaso community with this site. I would be happy to contribute financially to keep it going without being a burden to you and your family.
I will always continue to use my experience to help others on the forum when I can.

George, I can not say enough good things about this site and the good members that are here. This has been an valuable resource for our hobby. That said I don't think it should continue to be a financial burden on you. As a suggestion, how about a simple $10 yearly membership if you wish to sell parts etc. $50 for each car ad one places. If that does not generate enough revenue then a small membership fee I support. We all back you 100% and want to enable you to continue to support the Pantera community with this site.
Hi George, I must say here in the UK we have nothing to compare with this site, being a complete novice both mechanically and historically with this beautiful marque I personally would not have been able to do half the work I have done on my cars.

The knowledge and passion shared between the members is inspiring, I have not met anyone in person other than UK members on this site, yet I feel through this site I am talking with close friends who want me to succeed in my projects.

When I think I have found a better way to tackle a problem I look back in the history and find someone has already done that, where else could this happen, not on any Other sites that I know of and so easy to negotiate.

Let me tell you something that your site has done personally for me, a member had been buying original parts over some time for his Mangusta, he noted that a job lot of parts were actually from my Goose, he contacted me because of my registration with your site and Now I am reunited with my original wheel nuts, drip tray, condensor fan, motor and brackets plus other electrical connectors etc... how would this have been possible without your site.

Therefore if a charge is made to be a member, to purchase or sell anything, I would be the first to accept this, the history alone which goes back years is priceless,
I applaud your dedication George, you deserve a medal
George & Debbie,
A heartfelt thank you, many of us do not say it enough. I have been here since 2001, this is a great resource for the DeTomaso community.

Just my 2 cents;
Maybe put up a go fund me, you should not be in the red. As for the people who make "money" from the site by selling items (not one offs like me offering something here before I dump it on evil bay) please consider contacting George and Debbie and working something out.
This may be a touchy subject for you, but please feel welcome and safe to speak your opinion.


You asked for our opinions, and assured us we were "safe" if we did just that. So....

I do find myself wondering what you mean by "safe". "Safe" from what? Based on my previous, personal experience, I am a little concerned with what is behind your use of that word "safe".

But I will take you at your word, your Cowboy Code of Honor, that I am "safe" to post my opinions as long I do so in a manner compliant with the website's Terms of Service. BTW, for those that are interested, those terms can found at:


As noted in my earlier post in this thread, your initial post called out un-named "freeloaders", asked for our opinions on the issue, but left it up to us to somehow divine just what a "freeloader" is. I posted and asked you for clarity but received none. I PM'd you asking for clarity and again received none; although you did send a four word PM response.

Since I have received no clarification, I have no basis for an informed opinion on the "freeloader" issue and I therefore find it wisest to withhold comment.

However, I found this in the PI website's "Terms of Service" and think it appropriate to introduce to that topic:

"Vendors are welcome to use the Community News Forum to inform members about Pantera or De Tomaso specific parts or services available. Vendors may post questions aimed at the general forum membership in Alejandro's Neighborhood Pub forum. De Tomaso cars for sale may be advertised in the forums designed for that purpose."


I have noted this thread has morphed to include another topic not initially introduced by you -

How to improve the PI financial situation.

Since this topic diversion has continued unedited, and has not been moved to another topic thread, I assume such discussion is acceptable to this thread and I will add my 2¢.

Let me first say I truly enjoy and appreciate this forum. It is far more active and informative than the POCA email-list. While POCA does have a very similar forum available through their club website, it is a forum that died before birth, and will remain dead until the email-list is discontinued. But I digress.

I admire anyone who is brave enough to attempt to enter the business world with a privately-owned and operated venture. Many (most?) fail, sometimes explosively and sometimes quietly in the night. I'd hate to see PI fall to that fate. With that thought in mind, here are my opinions and suggestions regarding PI's financial situation.

You stated PI carries a $130.00 a month cost for a business telephone line. That seems very excessive in this day and age of very competitively priced cellular phone service. Perhaps there are particulars to your PI business line that justify that amount. Yes, no? In any case, perhaps a day spent researching other, less expensive, telephone line options could find a more frugal provider that would leave money in the PI account balance.

On a related topic, one I know nothing about, could your website expenses be reduced by switching to another provider? Is it possible to self-host your website? If so, would an initial equipment outlay to allow self-hosting result in long-term reduced hosting expenses?

I imagine this forum has members that can answer those questions. If so, please speak up and let George know if he has better options than the current status quo.

The forum's only direct income stream, AFAIK, is the banner advertisement at the top of some pages. Published rates are $100 per ad, per month. There are currently two advertisers. Just two.

From my time as PCNC Motorsports Coordinator, during which I organized five two-day track events at the Las Vegas and Reno Fun Rallies, I know how hard it is to get Pantera vendors to part with any of their money for advertising purposes. The majority of the sponsorship support for the PCNC Speed Trials actually came from club members, NOT the Pantera vendors. Most vendors are well established and well known, to the point where they feel, probably correctly, that their business runs just fine with no outlay for advertising. Might it run better with advertising? Maybe, but I was continually unable to convince them of that during my Speed Trials activities.

George, how recently have you approached the vendors for advertising on the PI website? The economic downturn ten years ago has subsided, things are better for many. Perhaps now some vendors might consider a banner ad that was financially not practical some years ago? What about a smaller, less expensive ad? What about selling an ad that appears every other month? How about offering the vendors a November-December special ad rate? Making ads more affordable might attract another vendor or two, even if just seasonally.

I have always thought PI exists as a separate business enterprise. You and Debbie also have Sespe company as the seller/vendor of your PI clothing, publications and accessories. I visited and found the following:

We maintain Pantera International's online forums (the De Tomaso Forums).

We maintain Pantera International's website.

Now I am not sure what is meant by "maintain", but perhaps that means the Sespe income helps offset the PI forum costs?

In any case, IMHO your Sespe business is SERIOUSLY under-promoted. The ONLY link to Sespe merchandise is on the single home page of PI. I am quite sure I am not the only forum member who signs on to the forum using a desktop bookmark, one that takes me directly to the forums. That means NO views of the home page and no way to select a link to the Sespe merchandise. Even when viewing the home page, the link to the Sespe merchandise is obscurely hidden amongst the multiple home page links. There is a lot of empty space on the home page; perhaps listing the Sespe link more prominently, with some merchandise photos, would increase Sespe visibility on the home page?

But just that single home page link to Sespe means exposure to potential buyers is VERY obscure and limited.

The forums have a separate section for "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale".

For the past two years, Debbie has made one or two pre-Christmas posts, in "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale", highlighting the merchandise available through Sespe. Other than those Christmas promotion posts, despite all the merchandise Sespe has available, there has been ZERO promotion of Sespe in the "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale" subject, a subject that is tailor-made for such promotion.

Talk about missed opportunities!!

George, how about?....

A sticky in the "Clothing, Literature, and Collectables For Sale" subject so people seeking such items can be made aware of the Sespe merchandise without having to find the one link on the home page?

Could that sticky incorporate a scrolling series of merchandise photos? Could scrolling photos be incorporated in a new, more prominent home page Sespe link?

How about a monthly special now and then to quickly move some of the stagnant, overstocked or odd-sized merchandise? Post in both the Pub and For Sale sections for better visibility?

How about more seasonal, Christmas-like Sespe-promotions, perhaps prior to the Fun Rally, or Concorso, when owners might like to attend those events in some new clothing?

How about Sespe creating an eBay account/store/auctions for selling Sespe merchandise?


I sincerely wish to see the PI forum remain available and active for owners and enthusiasts around the world.

To that end, I have presented this epistle of my opinions and ideas in the hope they, or ideas suggested by them, can provide some relief to the financial woes PI is apparently experiencing.



P.S. - Some may be wondering about the word Sespe. The Sespe Formation is "a widespread fossiliferous sedimentary geologic unit in southern and south central California in the United States." The area incorporates the Sespe Wilderness area, the Sespe (California) condor sanctuary and 61 mile long Sespe creek. George lived close to that area prior to moving to Ventura.


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Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

... Some may be wondering about the word Sespe. The Sespe Formation is "a widespread fossiliferous sedimentary geologic unit in southern and south central California in the United States." The area incorporates the Sespe Wilderness area, the Sespe (California) condor sanctuary and 61 mile long Sespe creek. George lived close to that area prior to moving to Ventura ...

The Sespe Wilderness was long known as the most primitive area in North America, they stopped using that description not too long ago, although I don't know why. Perhaps they've started considering bears as civilized residents. The Sespe is where they take the troublesome bears when they're removed from Yosemite and other such places in California ... because there is no encroachment from man. That's also why they chose it as the place to bring the California Condor back from extinction. Its the bird in the Sespe logo, the adult condors have a 10 foot wingspan. When we moved to Fillmore there were only a few Condors remaining alive. It used to be you only saw them in the sky above Fillmore, now you see them all over California. They're back from extinction. My children grew up hiking the Sespe.


Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

... I have noted this thread has morphed to include another topic not initially introduced by you -

How to improve the PI financial situation.

Since this topic diversion has continued unedited, and has not been moved to another topic thread, I assume such discussion is acceptable to this thread and I will add my 2¢ ...

Two cents? Thankfully it wasn't a dollar's worth. Razzer
Last edited by George P
Good Evening George, Sharkey here. Wow, eye opening responses for sure. I would like to help out, I would like to make a proposal. I would like to be a bimonthly advertiser. Why? Lord knows we can barely handle the mechanical end of Pantera Miami, we're buried. And major projects waiting. Body shop?? Buried even more so. A bimonthly will help the club monetarily, which is the objective of this email, not to drive more traffic here. We're all put one this earth to help one another. Let's give it a try. Hope others will do the same :-)
How about dumping your land line existing business phone and getting the cheapest cell phone plan? You don't have to register it as a business phone, couldn't you just do it as another personal phone. Or even get a family plan to have the extra number. Or a business friend of mine has an 800 number ported to his personal cell phone. I don't think he even has an actual land line for that number anymore.
What about selling an ad that appears every other month?

I would like to be a bimonthly advertiser.

How about that?

I post a suggestion on how PI might attract new vendor advertising with a bi-monthly banner, and within 24 hours there is a post from a vendor requesting just such an option.

This is another example of the power of the De Tomaso Forums - collective minds joining together for the common good.

George, you're welcome.

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In support of the forum and one of the sponsors.

I heard here last year about the electric power steer kit made by SACC, a few months later I put a post on the forum asking for info about it from those who had taken the plunge.

The replies prompted me to buy the kit, I had a little trouble fitting it that was self inflicted but I did ask Scott about where I had gone wrong, he did say that England was a bit far to troubleshoot over the telephone! but he took the time to sort me out.

Very Happy with the kit and the Forum, we don't have access to Pantera experts in the UK and the forum is the Number 1 place to start.

With the help of this forum almost anything can be done by ones self.

If there was an annual fee to gain entry here I would certainly be ready to put my hand in my pocket, and I bet lots of others would too.

Thanks George for your efforts, best Peter.
Originally posted by ItalFord:
George, I can not say enough good things about this site and the good members that are here. This has been an valuable resource for our hobby. That said I don't think it should continue to be a financial burden on you. As a suggestion, how about a simple $10 yearly membership if you wish to sell parts etc. $50 for each car ad one places. If that does not generate enough revenue then a small membership fee I support. We all back you 100% and want to enable you to continue to support the Pantera community with this site.

Well first off, HATS OFF TO GEORGE AND DEBBIE! I have always admired and appreciated the great job done managing, administering, and advising George has done over the past decade on this site. Although I do wish George would put in his "two bits" more often. To my knowledge there is no better site for the Pantera Community, hands down and nothing EVEN COMES CLOSE! I can also say that this site is probably the "BEST SITE" of any FORUM/site I've ever had the privilege of participating in. Bar none, the content from this site over the years has made my Pantera hobby extremely satisfying. The guys that are regularly on this site are a huge asset in their contributions and always, for the most part, well mannered and respectful of others, and that's due to George setting an expectation of what he wants and will tolerate on his site.

Second, I like what ItalFord has said above. I have no issue seeing banner adds. I think the products would be valuable to me and others, and get me off my butt to finish some small projects. As far as Scott and SACC Restorations goes, he's top notch and should have a banner if he's contributing. He's got some amazing products that work great, and he's first rate in his business practices. Unfortunately, I have no experience with Mr. Fiat, didn't know he existed and would have loved to have seen a banner add so I could get exposure to what he offers.

George, I know what ever you choose to do will be measured, well thought out and will enhance the site and our experience. Cheers to you and Debbie!
Originally posted by Tom@Seal Beach:

As far as Scott and SACC Restorations goes, he's top notch and should have a banner if he's contributing.......... Unfortunately, I have no experience with Mr. Fiat, didn't know he existed and would have loved to have seen a banner add so I could get exposure to what he offers.

In my earlier post, I noted, (bold text added):

The forum's only direct income stream, AFAIK, is the banner advertisement at the top of some pages.


I sent Tom a PM and it turns out he has never noticed the SACC and Mr. Fiat banner advertisements. Frowner

Tom gets his De Tomaso Forums exposure by means of the emailed updates. He views the forum threads of interest to him and said he usually is not on the home page.

The banner ads are on the home page, the Forums Summary page, and the home page for each of the Forum sub-forums.

BUT the ads are NOT on the individual threads within a sub-forum.

So the De Tomaso Forums has a regular user, but because that member only views individual threads of interest to him, that user never sees the banner advertisements because the individual threads do not HAVE the advertising.

How many other members have, month after month, the same NON-exposure to any De Tomaso Forums banner advertising?


George, IMHO, I think adding the banner advertisements to the top of each sub-forum individual thread would result in increased ad-clicks for your advertisers.

More ad clicks should help to keep current advertisers, and increased historical clicks data might help convince new vendors to buy a banner.

That would be a good thing, right?

Last edited by George P

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