Which Pantera model from "investment" point of view?

This is a forum for Panteras, there must be another forum somewhere for investment bankers?

Most of us buy these cars using the highly tuned skills of gut instinct. And many, like me, are not ever going to sell until our bodies are starting to rot six feet under, so a return on the 'investment' is not a subject of interest.

You won't lose money on any car - yea, right. In reality, after purchase you will most likely be afflicted with the upgrade disease. The nicer you make the car, the more difficult it will be to justify - financially - all you put into it. Sort of like fixing up your home while the neighborhood around you turns into crack houses. Sure you have a great house, and it will command top dollar, but not a reasonable "return".

If you want an investment, buy a hemi Cuda'. If you want to fulfill that 19 year old dream, and have more fun with a car and people than with any other car, go out and find your Pantera, the one that 'talks' to you, and buy it just because it feels right - not because your broker would approve.

Larry

Well put Larry!

Good point Larry!

But when I am six feet under it doesn't hurt if my family can get the most out of my passion.

Don't worry I will go and get one and there are a few out there that already "talks to me" hence my question:

If I was battling between a 1985 Factory GT5 and a 197X GT conversion which one would one would hold the value best?

Well there is like a smorgasborg in Panteradom because they made all kinds. There arethe Ultra rare factory race cars whic are on thehigh end of value, especialy if they have a documented raceing history and there are many steps down from that. The problem is if you buy a real rare one, you can wind up paying more for a basket case, than a fully decked out common model. This is one area of your life where you make your decision on passion and not reason. Cars suck as investments anyway. The more valuable they are, the less you enjoy them. I don't want a car that gives me a heart attack everytime a fly lands on the paint job. I want one where I can drive through the mountains and enjoy the turn backs going up hill. Any car can be fun going down hill, but not many are fun going up hill.

You are asking for certainties in a hard to pin down hobby. Here's why:

The factory GT5 & GT5-S Panteras set the pace for pricing in the US. These cars average $20K more than a Ford era narrow body in similar condition.

However, a 1985 factory GT5 is undersirable in California due to the smog inspection laws, the GT5 conversion would be more desirable if the new owner plans to drive the car on the street.

A Hall Ultra-Pantera is a Ford era Pantera restored by Hall, equipped with every "goody" Hall manufactured for the Pantera, and modified with wide body GT4 wheel well flares. Because these cars have the Hall name they can hold there own in value with any Pantera made.

Tony Pangaio is selling his GT5-S conversion, done by Dennis Quella, for $84K. That is a fair ball park price for that car, because it was a bare metal restoration/GT5-S conversion with Quella's name on it, and it is still in show winning condition. This car has won best of show many times.

Take a look at the club web site, cars for sale page. You'll see Roger Gossett's pristine AmeriSport and Tom Bechtel's wild custom with GT5 bodywork selling for the same price, and neither owner is asking too much, they are in the ball park. Tom Bechtel's car is another multi-best-of-show trophy winning car. Although it does not have a big name like Hall Pantera associated with it, it is acknowledged by all who have seen it to be a top notch representative of our marque.

Its not just "which model" holds the best price. Its where does the buyer live, what does the buyer intend to do with the car, what condition is the car in, which shop did the restoration (if it has been restored), etc.

The two modified cars selling in the $80K range both have close to $200K invested in them. You don't get your money back, so the car better be a passion, a hobby, and not an investment.

At the $60K you've quoted as your maximum price range, you will not get into a Pantera that will hold its value best, $70K to $80K does. $60K does buy you a bare metal restored narrow body, Ford era car. A rust-free restored Pantera is not a bad thing. Rust is the Pantera's enemy, and no Pantera with rust "issues" should sell for $60K, not even a GT5-S.

If you are basing your perception of Pantera value on eBay pricing, you will not have a good idea of the market.

By the way, I'm moving this topic to the ownership issues forum.

cowboy from hell

Watching Barret Jackson this year a guy had an early 1970's black and white corvette. Obviously bought it for investment. Had about 500 miles on it and the plastic was still on the seats. Did he make money? I think they said he made around $15k. How much did he spend on storing it for 30+ years, trying to keep it factory new?

The guys that make investments from cars generally do it in a professional manner and it seems to be more like horse racing. some do a good job and some loose their ass. The one's that make money seem to buy an undervalued car at an auction one year and sell it the next. I hardly call these guys car enthusiast or collectors, more like sharks.

Like I said with horses the lucky Joe who got a good deal on a Hemi ANYTHING and left it parked in their barn over the last 30 years to pull it out, freshen it up picked a lucky horse. Not sure you can buy a car like that cheap enough to make a worth while investment.

On the flip side as an enthusiast I would rather invest in a car which will be worth my investment. I have $30k+ invested in an MGB restoration and V6 conversion. It is a fun car but a waste of money. If I had it all to do over again I would have never wasted my time on such a futile car. Now I am restoring a wide body conversion Pantera. It just makes more sense to invest money in that car. The MG is fun but if anything should happen to me no one in the MG community is ready to pay for what the car is worth. I sold a set of overhauled lever arm shocks on Ebay for $20; less then core charges for both. When the guy received the shocks he said when he left them upside down over night one was leaking a little and he wanted his money back!!!!! That's what you are dealing with in that kind of market and there is no way you can ever work with a car like that and see any return on what you have done.

I guess what I am saying is at least Pantera's hold a reasonable value over time and are valuable enough (and don't have a bunch of cheapskates for followers) you can make upgrades and not loose your ass. As far as investment, if you had invested right before the depression in the early 1900's you would still have a great return today. Nothing beats a long term market investments.

Gary

Also,,,,,

I don't see any cars today replacing the "Originals". When I see a new Corvette, a new Ford Mustang, etc...I see a fancy Cell phone. Well designed, nice cars. Well designed, very good cars but they are not and never will be the originals. No Mustang will ever replace a 1969/1970 MachI. No corvette produced now or in the future will ever replace the late 1960's stingray.

The Pantera is an original which can never be duplicated; ever!

Jesper,

Welcome to the USA, home of the American Dream! Sadly, I believe you've been reading way too many Money Magazine articles about making money on your investments.

In the car community, the dominant economic research points to an alternative approach known as "Loss on Investment," sometimes called "LOI." It works in much the same way as "ROI" but the rewards are different.

In the near term, the best LOI would be achieved by buying someone else's excellent restoration for pennies on the dollar. In the very long run, a stock GT5 will probably provide the best LOI, followed by any other stock car.

However, that is not nearly as much fun as a restomodded car where the LOI goes up in direct relationship to the fun factor. I believe most of us would go that route. The "reward" we experience is that silly looking grin we all get when we take our cars out for a ride. This grin is in no way to be confused with the smug grin that you see on satisfied Ferrari owners. For all their wealth and education, the Ferrari owners do not understand LOI like we do.

Pick your poison!

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
For the best "Loss on Investment," sometimes called "LOI" in the car community, buy someone elses excellent restoration for pennies on the dollar. In the very long run, a stock GT5 will probably be the best LOI, followed by any other stock car. However, that is not nearly as much fun as restomodded car where the LOI goes up in direct relationship to the fun factor. Pick your poison!

I believe most of us would go for the fun factor.

I would agree 100% buy the best car for the best price right from the start. You won't lose money till you start working on it.

Thanks for all the input guys, I really appreciate it.

As I mentioned in the beginning I have owned an older AC Cobra replica for 4 years in the UK so I know how much money sinks in to a passion of upgrading this and that and then some more so I am prepared for the "it doesn't make sense financially" part of the passion.

I plan on driving my Pantera as much as possible - it will not be a trailer queen.

Let's say I could get my hands on a 1985 factory GT5 in really nice condition that doesn't need anything done to it for less than $60K, would that be a "better deal" than buying a 197X GT5 conversion for around $40-45K?

As you can probably tell I am trying to figure out whether I should spend the extra money on getting a car that is 11-14 years younger and has everything from factory?

The Pantera fever is racing through me badly but I don't want to take the jump with out some sort of informed decision that can help control the "money pit" I am embarking on.

I wish I could change the thread subject to "damage control counseling"

The lowest priced Pantera that is already optioned the way you want your Pantera to be optioned, that has no serious issues in regards to the mechanicals or the coach, is the best car for you or anybody.

You must also consider the vehicle inspection laws in your state, is there a cut-off date that exempts older cars? If so, then the older car is the proper choice.

The factory GT5 does not have a motor that is any more powerful than the earlier cars, and in fact it has more smog equipment on it including catalytic converters, if it is to be legal in certain states. The GT5 floor pans are dropped, but it has luxury car seating, not sports car seating. If you want sports car seating you'll still need to replace the seats. It has brakes better than the brakes that came stock on the '71 - '74 cars, but not better than the Wilwoods that are such a popular upgrade. The wide 15" wheels are not much of an advantage since tires for those wheels are near impossible to acquire. You'll want to upgrade to 17" - 19" wheels anyway. It has a leather interior, but so do many of the early Panteras in the $60K price range. The factory GT5 shocks are not modern gas filled shocks, they'll need upgrading just like the earlier Pantera shocks.

Whether you choose a factory GT5 or a modified early car, you are most likely going to want a car equipped with options and upgrades, the only difference being the early car will have non-original fiberglass flares riveted or glued onto it.

Now be realistic, a factory GT5 for $60K or a GT5 conversion for $40K are not mechanically sound cars. They are like my ex-wife, they have issues. Why do you keep quoting low-ball prices?

cowboy from hell

quote:

Why do you keep quoting low-ball prices?

Because I have found the candidates and are in talks with the owner/sellers so these are not fictional numbers.........

I agree with what Mark said, "you won't lose money until you start working on it". One approach might be to buy the car that will require the least amount of money to get it the way you want it. I think if you are paying someone to do the work for you, you may be lucky to get half of your investment in upgrades back? I've done most of my work myself and I don't think I could get all of my money back and that is earning zero dollars per hour.

quote:

Originally posted by hal9000:
...am in talks with the owner/sellers so these are not fictional numbers...

Has somebody who knows Panteras helped you inspect these cars? I must advise you not to bid on a Pantera without having it inspected. Knowing where to find the rust, and inspecting the car for rust is very important. Even $40K is too much for a Pantera with rust issues.

I feel like I'm being a hard-ass, in reality I want to help you make a wise purchase, or prevent you from making a mistake.