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Weber Carbs

P 72panteraMember
I am thinking about replacing the original set up on my 72 with a set of webers. Does anyone have ideas of what size carbs as well as what manifold i can use in order to aviod cutting the truck lid? I am OK if the back screen needs to be trimmed, but i would really like to avoid cutting into the body panels.

thx
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George PGeorge PAdmin.
The carb size is 48mm. Weber sells two different models of 48mm two-barrel downdraft carburetors for this type of application; the taller 48 IDA which is a racing carburetor; or the more compact 48 IDF which is a more street friendly carburetor. There are 3 manifolds to choose from.

(1) There is a manifold manufactured by Hall Pantera for 48 IDA carbs that mates to the 351C with 4V heads. I've never seen this set-up installed without removal of the engine screen and a notch in the rear deck.



(2) There is a manifold manufactured by Aussie Speed for 48 IDF carbs that mates to the 351C with either 2V heads or 4V heads. With the right air filters this set-up will fit below the engine screen and deck.





(3) There is a manifold manufactured by Redline for 48 IDA carbs OR (with adapters) 48 IDF carbs. This manifold mates to the 351C with either 2V heads or 4V heads. Due to the height of the adapters I suspect this set up will require removal of the engine screen and a notch in the deck regardless of which carburetors are used.



There are several threads in the engine forum covering the subject of these carburetors, and independent runner (IR) induction in general.

-G
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
I was under the impression that there was a IDF manifold for the C available?
If that is so, they might fit under that part of the deck. Not sure if there would be any room for air flow to the stacks or any kind of an air filter?

Kelly Coefields FI manifold is the lowest and might be usable for the IDA's to fit under the deck?

YOU DO NOT NEED TO CUT THE DECK for clearance, at least on my car BUT if you cut the deck, save the piece you cut out. It could be put back in.
Last edited by panteradoug
George PGeorge PAdmin.
... and then there is this



A cross-ram manifold for 8.2" deck height small block Fords with conventional in-line valve heads. The carburetors are the very popular Weber 48 DCOE two barrel side draft carburetors. Somebody cast a limited number of the manifolds, according to Jim Inglese the manufacturer claims its a one time production run, i.e. when they are sold-out they will not be re-cast. You cannot buy the manifold alone, Inglese will only sell it complete with carburetors.

But damn it sure is bitchen looking.

Here's where it gets interesting. Price Motorsports (PME) sells an intake manifold adapter that would adapt this manifold to a 351 Cleveland with 2V heads (#AP-06). So get out your credit cards, nirvana is only two phone calls away!

Jim Inglese Weber Carburetion
Price Motorsport Engineering

-G
Last edited by George P
C coreypriceMember
Be ready for sticker shock on the Aussiespeed manifold.

Also, people have recommended to me to get everything set up from a guy like Jim Inglese. That way, you're off on the right foot.

I've also heard a lot of people bad-mouth the Weber carb setup from experience lately. They seem to love them when they are running right, though.

For a little more money, you can do fuel injection. Inglese makes 8-stack injection systems with self-tuning EZ EFI that I've heard works amazingly well. I heard that from the guy at TWM as well as Mark Johnson of IPSCO. There are plenty of Youtube videos showing how well the setup works.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Halls manifold is a structurally reinforced version of the "Detomaso" script manifold that was sold through the Detomaso parts department.

It is said to be originally built by Holman-Moody and the patterns sold to Detomaso.

The Detomaso manifold had the reputation of being "thin" and easy to break? Hall beefed it up.

Since the entire set up was never intended to be anything other then the racing induction setup for the factory Group 4 cars, fitting under the screen on a race car was never even a consideration.

This is a racing induction system. All the complaints about it result from the disappointment of thinking it is a completely tractable "street" system.

That never was a consideration for it. It is a system that can be made to be "acceptable" for street use.

The biggest issue is that people presume that with all this carburation that the 351 should pull like a 427. That right there is a problem.

From what I know from playing with high performance cars for the last 40 years I would say that most people, maybe 98%, will hate the set up.

Then again, most people who love Panteras are in the minority anyway so who knows for sure?

I would add that from what I have seen of the fuel injection system built on this manifold, that although the fuel injection correct SOME of the issues, the carbs pull harder and make more power.

Of course there are and will always be those people who feel the need for re-inventing the wheel?
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I Don't mean to sound negative but if you are bored with your life, convert to Webers; that will give you (or a hired tuner) something to do for the forseeable future. In case you've never played with Webers before, your very FIRST purchase should be a good Halon fire extinguisher, as small backfires are the order of the day, and they can/will catch the air cleaners & anything close by on fire.
Your second purchase should be a Weber manual (3 or 4 manuals will be better), because there are 5 jets and two air-bleeds for each cylinder and they all interact to a degree while you are tuning. The venturis and aux-venturis also are changeable and there are no cold-start chokes; Webers use a fuel-richening circuit instead. The cheapest jet sold is about $5 so expect to accumulate quite a collection of part$ you will never use again and which are useless to most other sufferers. In engine fires, the aux-venturis are pot-metal and will melt.
Having spent a solid year getting a set of Webers running well with decent fuel mileage, if I was to contemplate abusing myself again this way, I would use a side-draft intake with Weber-lookalike EFI throttle bodies from TWM. D Quella sells a well-sorted EFI system that can use such throttle bodies or short style downdraft types both of which DO fit under a stock engine screen without cutting the decklid, and once tuned, do not change with every passing cloud in the sky. For $5000.
Did I mention there are Weber-copies available from China via E-Bay and late-night swap meets? They are excellent visual copies except for porosity in the castings plus all the usual far-east-copy probems. Some actually work, too.
Original Italian Weber carburetors were discontinued in the late '80s but one small division in Spain still occasionally makes "original" Weber carbs in a few sizes.
Finally, the 48 IDA and 48DCOEs are really too small for a performance 351C. What's needed IMHO is about 58 IDAs, of which there were exactly 6 sets ever made. But dune buggy off-roaders and sand-drag race shops have such carbs (& larger) available sort-of-reasonably. Not one single part comes from Weber, though. BTW, Jim Inglese sold his CA carb & injection business in 2010 and now runs a new one on the East Coast. The original 'Inglese Inc' is not associated in any way with him but both places sell more-or-less the same things. Good luck.
italforditalfordMember
I do not doubt that the Weber carbs are a long term PITA. The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable?
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I Don't mean to sound negative but if you are bored with your life, convert to Webers; that will give you (or a hired tuner) something to do for the forseeable future. In case you've never played with Webers before, your very FIRST purchase should be a good Halon fire extinguisher, as small backfires are the order of the day, and they can/will catch the air cleaners & anything close by on fire.
Your second purchase should be a Weber manual (3 or 4 manuals will be better), because there are 5 jets and two air-bleeds for each cylinder and they all interact to a degree while you are tuning. The venturis and aux-venturis also are changeable and there are no cold-start chokes; Webers use a fuel-richening circuit instead. The cheapest jet sold is about $5 so expect to accumulate quite a collection of part$ you will never use again and which are useless to most other sufferers. In engine fires, the aux-venturis are pot-metal and will melt.
Having spent a solid year getting a set of Webers running well with decent fuel mileage, if I was to contemplate abusing myself again this way, I would use a side-draft intake with Weber-lookalike EFI throttle bodies from TWM. D Quella sells a well-sorted EFI system that can use such throttle bodies or short style downdraft types both of which DO fit under a stock engine screen without cutting the decklid, and once tuned, do not change with every passing cloud in the sky. For $5000.
Did I mention there are Weber-copies available from China via E-Bay and late-night swap meets? They are excellent visual copies except for porosity in the castings plus all the usual far-east-copy probems. Some actually work, too.
Original Italian Weber carburetors were discontinued in the late '80s but one small division in Spain still occasionally makes "original" Weber carbs in a few sizes.
Finally, the 48 IDA and 48DCOEs are really too small for a performance 351C. What's needed IMHO is about 58 IDAs, of which there were exactly 6 sets ever made. But dune buggy off-roaders and sand-drag race shops have such carbs (& larger) available sort-of-reasonably. Not one single part comes from Weber, though. BTW, Jim Inglese sold his CA carb & injection business in 2010 and now runs a new one on the East Coast. The original 'Inglese Inc' is not associated in any way with him but both places sell more-or-less the same things. Good luck.


Fire is over rated. Just don't look down the stacks when you are firing it up. You will burn off your eyebrows, and that makes you look surprised. I hate that.

The kids in the neighborhood love to see me start the car in the dark. It looks a little like a volcanic eruption.

54mm is what you need for the 351c. The bore should match the valve size in this case.

The 58's didn't work very well. That's why there are only 6 sets.

Running "Webers" is a life style. Cool people understand this.

All carbs change with the weather. Racers use the term "good/bad air". That's what they are talking about.

The sensitivity is not from the carbs it results from an individual runner manifold.

The fuel injection does not run much better. There is one of Colorado, Pantera Performance Center Pantera's cars here and to put it frankly, it runs like do-do. Do-do isn't worth 5 grand...to me.

48ida's on an individual runner intake manifold is a racing setup. As such, it comes with all the rights and privileges. For a little use street vehicle they are ok.
Last edited by panteradoug
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:
Originally posted by ItalFord:

... The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable ...

Every single cylinder internal combustion engine ever built has been equipped with independent runner induction. (single cylinder street motorcycles, dirt bikes, lawnmowers, power edgers, garden tillers, chain saws, leaf blowers, portable generators, cement mixers, construction air compressors, portable arc welders, motor boat engines, the list goes on and on). Multi-cylinder engines found on a lot of sporting equipment like "sport bikes" and several sports cars have also been equipped with carbureted IR systems. Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Alfas, Lotus, Jaguars, Aston Martins ... even a European Ford Escort was equipped with IDF Webers.

There is an overwheling amount of evidence that an IR system can be a reliable and drivable induction system for a street automobile. It is a combination of carburetor set-up and camshaft design that will most influence the success. The things in a camshaft's design that will hurt an IR system are too much overlap, overlap that is not centered on TDC, or a late closing intake valve.

Modern camshaft design with narrow lobe separation, lots of overlap, a steep and narrow torque curve, a lopey idle, and a tire frying low rpm powerband is not a good match for an IR induction system. This is why Inglese Systems sells camshafts to compliment their induction systems; all of their camshafts have 115 degree lobe separation angles. My camshaft spec that I call the Cobra Jet cam would make a good cam for an IR system too. The 351C 4V cylinder head imbues a motor with a wide flat torque curve and therefore a wide flat powerband, with a strong mid-range rush. My camshaft spec was set-up to compliment that type of powerband. This type of torque curve and powerband is an ideal characterisitic for an IR induction system too, IR induction is very good at operating over a wide powerband with a strong mid-range rush. I am convinced the 351C 4V cylinder head was designed with IR induction in mind.

One problem I have encountered is that some people are not willing to give up their narrow LSA "hot rod camshaft" when they install an IR system; in being stubborn like that they've already destined their street motor project to difficulty or doom, in my opinion.

-G
Last edited by George P
edgeedgeMember
As has been documented elsewhere on this Forum, I went down the EFI path.
Took a while to get it right & a steep learning curve but persistence paid off.
I wanted the Weber look, but without the carbie tuning headaches.
Now I have a car that fires up reliably on cold mornings, has a crisp clean throttle response & a pleasure to drive. And as yet, I haven’t needed to re-tune anything to keep it that way.
And yes it occasionally does back fire though the stacks, likely a “Hot Rod Cam” issue as George mentions.

Regards,
Tony.

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panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
quote:
Originally posted by ItalFord:

... The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable ...

Every single cylinder internal combustion engine ever built has been equipped with independent runner induction. (single cylinder street motorcycles, dirt bikes, lawnmowers, power edgers, garden tillers, chain saws, leaf blowers, portable generators, cement mixers, construction air compressors, portable arc welders, motor boat engines, the list goes on and on). Multi-cylinder engines found on a lot of sporting equipment like "sport bikes" and several sports cars have also been equipped with carbureted IR systems. Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Alfas, Lotus, Jaguars, Aston Martins ... even a European Ford Escort was equipped with IDF Webers.

There is an overwheling amount of evidence that an IR system can be a reliable and drivable induction system for a street automobile. It is a combination of carburetor set-up and camshaft design that will most influence the success. The things in a camshaft's design that will hurt an IR system are too much overlap, overlap that is not centered on TDC, or a late closing intake valve.

Modern camshaft design with narrow lobe separation, lots of overlap, a steep and narrow torque curve, a lopey idle, and a tire frying low rpm powerband is not a good match for an IR induction system. This is why Inglese Systems sells camshafts to compliment their induction systems; all of their camshafts have 115 degree lobe separation angles. My camshaft spec that I call the Cobra Jet cam would make a good cam for an IR system too. The 351C 4V cylinder head imbues a motor with a wide flat torque curve and therefore a wide flat powerband, with a strong mid-range rush. My camshaft spec was set-up to compliment that type of powerband. This type of torque curve and powerband is an ideal characterisitic for an IR induction system too, IR induction is very good at operating over a wide powerband with a strong mid-range rush. I am convinced the 351C 4V cylinder head was designed with IR induction in mind.

One problem I have encountered is that some people are not willing to give up their "hot rod camshaft" when they install an IR system; in being stubborn like that they've already destined their project to doom, in my opinion.

-G


What essentially you are saying is that it is the camshaft timing creating the "problems" with the system. I can't disagree with it BUT 1) when these systems were raced in competition back in the day, they were run with radical race cams with no regard to reversion in the intake manifold. 2) I personally have been runing a solid lifter cam with 74 degrees of overlap, since 1981. The issues with that are over rated.
My car was set up in 1980. There were no special "Weber cam" grinds in existence then. Inglese was talking about having one ground and trying it.

First off, Jim Inglese had nothing to do with that "Weber" camshaft design. You give the criteria to the cam grinder and they design it. It is now sold by Comp Cams but was originally a Cam Techniques profile. That cam is hydraulic lifter. Even though it has .581 lift lacks top end big time on the track. It really is a 6000rpm limit cam. It really isn't what you want to run with the Webers.

Jim's role model was Dean Moon. He wanted to have his decals on all the race cars like the Moon eyes, but the eyes were taken. That company is now owned by the Holley conglomerate which is also CompCams, is based in Tennessee and has nothing to do with him.

Jim has reemerged as a Weber tuner and is still in North Branford, CT. He was at the most recent SAAC Convention at Watkins Glenn, NY, seen tuning running systems on some of the cars. He is a good source for tuning these systems. I'd recommend him to you.

Contrary to other comments, once tuned, the carbs do not come out of tune. What happens is that when you have a "bad air" situation with the atmosphere, the drop in power is so dramatic that people assume there is something wrong. There isn't. This happens with Holley single 4v carbs also.

The Weber cam was made so that people's air filters wouldn't catch on fire. This is a race set up. It is intended to be run with WITHOUT air filters.

I will point out that the 69Boss 302 Trans Am cars with the dual Holley Domination Holleys and the special individual runner manifold exhibit the exact reversion characteristics as the Webers do.

The solution there is to use a "carb cover" that is a certain distance from the carb inlets so that the fuel droplets accumulate on the inside of the "air cleaner top", drain and cause no fire hazard.

Not coincidentally, the GT40 Mark 1 had a cookie tray cover over the top of the carbs. There is no question in my mind why it was put there. That engine ran Fords "LeMans cam" (which can be run on the street) which has 82 degrees of overlap and advertised 321 degrees of duration. You might say that it was designed for that combination, no air filters, just open stacks.

That car, the GT40 MkI, without the cookie tray will fog the rear window with fuel droplets.

The "Weber cam" is nothing other then a compromise to this reversion issue caused by an IR manifold. The 28 degree over lap that it gives you doesn't eliminate it. It reduces the reversion.


I have found that the "cloud" of fuel vapor "hangs" just over the top of the standard 2-1/2" high velocity stacks.

If you use 5" tall stacks it will stay inside of the stack.

The 5" stack fits very well into the Pantera engine compartment dimensions. Just put screens over them. That's all you need.

48ida's don't like air filters and in particular ones made with paper.



The "Weber" cam also cuts the testicles off of the system. If you want to reduce the power down to 380 to 400hp from 550 to 600, that's the cam to run, absolutely. If you want power from the system, do not use the Weber cam. It is down well over 100 hp at the wheels.

The back fire really isn't one at all. You are actually seeing the opening of the intake valve and the cam timing allows you to see the flame. i've found that in the case of the Ford 351c with Webers that you want to run the AF42 plug rather then the AF32 that you would normally run with a high compression stock iron head.

You actually will get a similar reaction with a 360 or 180 single four barrel (or 2v) with a center plenum, if your choke opens too fast before the engine is warmed.

The aluminum heads are even more sensitive to plug temp range then the iron. They are players in the "back fire" since part of that is blowing carbon off of a partially fouled plug. Run a hotter plug. It helps.

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Last edited by panteradoug
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
Here's my 2 cents;

Weber carbs generally get a bad rap from people who haven't invested the time to set them up correctly. They buy set on Ebay and expect them to bolt on like a regular carb. There can be a lot of initial investment in time and cost.

The AussieSpeed 351C IDF manifold isn't that overpriced when you consider pricing for IDA manifolds mentioned above. The difference is you won't find a used one. The US$ is devalued and exchange rates play a part of perceived cost here too. I tried to pull together a group buy some time back, but could never quite get 5 people committed to get the discount. This is the manifold (Based on a Cain manifold) that will fit under the engine screen and decklid with IDF's and the IDF's are more street oriented.

EFI is always going to be better if set up correctly, it's comparing apples to oranges a quarter century apart.

For a real nice cross ram EFI system look at Morrison, the Aussies still know how to do Cleveland better than most.

http://www.morrisonoz.com/FordManifolds.html

Julian
G gilliganMember
The discussions in this thread are killin' me! The project car I just bought has the Hall intake with quad 48IDAs and a heavy clunky billet air cleaner assembly that I plan to "lose".

Some years back I was converting a Holman-Moody 427 in one of my Donzis to quad webers using the H-M intake. I still have the parts but the engine is still sporting a single Holley...other projects got in the way and the weber conversion is still on the to-do list.

The moral of that story is that I've yet to tackle a weber conversion and actually get it running properly. But on the other hand, I've done several custom EFI conversions, including one on a 1949 8BA flathead V-8. What to do?..I really want the Pantera to sport the webers..and of course I also want to enjoy the car.
macmanmacmanMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
You're not lucky MacMan, you have a well set up system. You aren't the only one though. Tell me more about the screen insert you built around the velocity stacks please. Did you fabricate that out of metal or is that molded out of fiberglass, carbon fiber or something else?


Metal frame covered in fiberglass, similar to how you might do a speaker enclosure. I'll send you a pick of it in the rough (don't want to hijack the thread) Smiler
belgiumbarrybelgiumbarryMember
that Morisson is NIRVANA...but besides sure better MPH , can anybody tell what HP gain there is in just switching that 8000 $ formula 1 Cosworth look-alike for a simple Holley or Edelbrock on a stock Cleveland ??? oh, and yes, you need a higher pressure fuel pump i suppose, computer etc...worse with the webbers...less MPH and what HP gain in the 2000 - 6000 revs we use on our roads ....???? or just loose torque for that racy sound ????
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