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For all of the efforts necessary it is important to point out that they definitely do work, and work well.

This video shows a 351C, iron heads and all on the dyno. The fuel mist rises out of the velocity stacks as the rpms rise.

This is what we are talking about when we say "fuel reversion". You can also see why the air filters get soaked with fuel. Usually it is a paper based filter that goes up in flame...usually.
(Unfortunately the video was removed. Too bad).

It showed 550hp on the dyno. 500 ft-lbs of torque. Good aluminum heads will put another 30hp on top of that.

The simple fact is that Webers aren't for everyone. In fact they aren't for most.

It is very difficult to explain them to anyone. Sometimes I think the only explanation of what they are like is to experience them?

I personally have never tried the DCOE sidedrafts. Don't talk about them. You will make me want a set. Wink
Last edited by panteradoug
I don't know. I don't have any reason to believe i will have problems with it. It took a beer and a half a movie to get the spring set.

If you look at the small loop near the center, I locked it down with a 2-56 screw threaded in the aluminum. It is kind of small for what it does but it pins it next to the bolt and seems stout in place.

I first set the threaded bolt through the pulley to engage the outer loop but it flexed and came around the bolt. I re-bent the big loop but tapped and put in a 4-40 bolt next to the bolt in the pulley which goes in the small hole and holds it in place which works pretty well.

I first released the spring when it was coiled as was packaged but was too loose. I tightened it more (which took me several attempts and a beer). With it more tightly would it behaved and stayed in place.

At that point it is contained and works great. As to what the failure point would be, if the tabs are secured well, and I think they are, I should be good.

I don't want to say it's good with little or no testing. I hate it when people do dumb things then say "it worked for me". It's kind of like playing Russian roulette and saying It worked out ok for me; it's just a dumb thing people say.

However, it seems to be solid.

How long is the Pantera throttle cable generally? Do you have a good source for throttle cables? I have used a throttle cable from the hot rod market for the MG but I never liked it. Too thin and cheap gave a lousy feel. I put in a larger housing and heavier cable and made a much better throttle cable set up for the MG. Just wondering who would source that kind of stuff.
Here's the view from the top with them on the car.

Since this pic was taken, I have gone to an electronic fuel pressure gauge and the sender takes the place of the gauge.

The original dip stick tube was put back in the car and the air filters were removed in favor of 5" screened open velocity stacks.

I wanted to run the filters but it just wasn't doable.


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  • Pantera_Engine_View_From_The_Top_003
Last edited by panteradoug
very nice doug, i'm trying to tell from the pictures, is that a vacuum log sitting below the gauge that you have each runner tapped and plumbed to, helping strengthen and cleanup vaccuum signal? I'm trying to figure out the best method for doing this, whether to use a log or some kind of tank that sits in the valley which I can attach the brake booster line to as well as plumb a remote idle air motor to for EFI. Kinsler just said to tune the car in alpha-n which uses a static fuel map whereas I would prefer to run it in speed density so that the computer could adjust to weather conditions on the fly.
Yes. Good eyes. Here's a picture of it while I was working on it.

It's actually a Mr.Gasket fuel log that I had bought that I finally found use for.
The brake booster is the -10 you see being taken from the t fitting in the middle.
The vacuum ports are plumbed in series to each side of the log.
I have PCV plumbed to either end of the log. You only see one here in this picture.
Vacuum gauge and vacuum advance are also plumbed in which you can see going to the 90 degree shinny brass fittings in the top view on the car. I like that better. This picture shows an earlier thought on them. That I changed.

The vacuum tubing is 1/4" od stainless 304, .035 wall. It's stiff. It supports the vacuum manifold fine and you are not going to bend or dent it easily on the car so where those tubes suspend the vacuum manifold are permanent (unless I rebend them in the vise) and are not going to vibrate around even under race conditions.

You can see the flexibility it gives you as far as what you want to connect to it and where. I've already varied the connections to it. I dropped the engine supplied PCV connection since the engine doesn't produce enough volume of vacuum, went to a CompCams vacuum pump, relocated an adjustable PCV valve to the rear of the left valve cover, but it still gives you an easy to reach connection to any other vacuum accessories like a vacuum gauge connection, etc. Just cap that -10 t-fitting being used as a coupling.

John Haas was just working on a similar set up on the blue Quella FI car and his solution was a little different for the FI MAP sensor which Quella had never installed.
That car was running with just a throttle position sensor. No Map. No oxygen sensor even.
Strictly as you mentioned, a Kinsler alpha-n sceme and as a result was running like ka-ka!

His solution takes up the entire valley.

I saw the space between the heat shield and the carbs as dead space and thought if I located the vacuum manifold in it that would maximize the available areas and make them more accessible to service and access?
The fuel log was almost the perfect length to work with.
Both valve covers now have PCV running to it. I thought it could breath through the dip stick tube? Nope. Wrong.

Webers in particular are rough on the oil rings.
Using a PCV system is definitely going to help them.

I would think an IR FI would be kinder but the sludge that you see accumulating internally is abrasive. The less you have, the better off the engine will be. It should have a functioning pcv also in my opinion.

Accessibility to me is very important. There isn't a lot of room to work with on an IR set up and I have big hands and yes a little... brain. Thought I was going to say something else huh? Smiler
This as you see it is a work in progress. I have found that solutions to one issue sometimes create another that was unforeseen.

This I think is the basic layout for me though but consider it a work in progress?

I also found, but didn't mention previously, that the Pantera throttle cable needs to be altered to work with the center tower pivot linkage.
You need to disassemble the carb end of it and remove the internal 7/16" rigid tube so that it is flexible and will curve to the carbs.

Also, stock the total travel is only 1-3/8". You need to increase that to 1-3/4" total so that the carbs will fully open. Disassembling the cable will give you that ability.

I post these details because I just don't remember anyone doing that before? No one has ever talked about with these set ups.I find that many of these answers are what others were struggling with and couldn't find answers or solutions anywhere that anyone would talk about?

Even Quella went to a different throttle cable that pulls from the drivers side. That's not necessary and just takes up more room that isn't available if you are going to service this engine.

I found that using the stock cable, modifying it and making the final adjustments on the throttle pedal inside the car were better solutions. It also put the pedal where it felt normal to my foot and gives me a very light pedal pressure like a current fuel injected car throttle would have with an electronic pedal.

Oh. This is not a cheap set up. You can start counting the fittings and total them up. The vacuum manifold set up in parts is around $300.

I just saw that Mr.Gasket fuel log on special on the internet for $14.99 new. I've seen them sell used for $35.,44644.html

I like using readily available components as much as possible.

If you ask me, this fuel log is like it's made for this application? It couldn't fit better.

I'm still fighting with myself about when I'm gonna get paid for the labor? Smiler

Just my life experiences with this set up. Your mileage may vary!


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Last edited by panteradoug
No, not yet... Frowner

I'm making changes to the manifold and the linkage, and in the mean time I (after I blew up some valve guides) decided to remove the heads, and shop for new ones - a work in progress thus, especially as I have little time to work on the car.

Btw, I got rid of the vacumm manifold (too fancy to my taste), and besides that, will only use those lines for my (Electromotive) ignition kit. For the brake booster, I plan to use an electric pump.
That looks really good doug, nice and tucked in close, looks like you just cleared the valve covers. Gives me some ideas on which route to take. I like the look of the hard line and -an fittings, just trying to figure out how to make it rigid enough using a 3 piece manifold. I will have to bring them inboard since the injection bungs and rails are on the outside. Yeah those fittings are ridiculously expensive, I've found its cheaper to buy on ebay with fragola vs earl's and some of the other brands on summit or jegs. You really have to plan out which fittings to buy beforehand because of the handling costs with those two if you forget a piece which I always do. Seems like when I find a local place that does sell these fittings their markup is a lot worse than summit/jegs I'm sure because it just doesn't move and sits. I probably have a small fortune of these things in a box that I try to pull from when I can.
Fregola is only useful for some of the obscure fittings (in my setup) like the 1/16 NPT to -4 adapters. for the Earls.

This set up will still work for your set up too. The fuel/vacuum log ports can be reversed from the outside to the center of the log.

The vacuum tubes clear the valve covers by an inch and tuck in well below the top of the covers.

You could strip the entire system down not directly involved in the induction and completely rebuild it (presuming you had all the parts ready) in about an hour, including the carbs) without having to remove anything not involved in the induction to get at it, and yet it still tucks in to the engine compartment.

The difficult thing in that set up, internal valley location, will be drilling the manifold for the adapters. There isn't a lot of room to work with on the cast Weber manifold. Whose 3 piece intake are you using, Kinsler?

I only saw that manifold on Charlie Kemps Mustang and not up close to check the details on it.

You are going to need a 90 degree drill and short bits to do the Hall in the internal valley location. For performance it would be the best manifold to use. The Australian manifolds are all shorter so there is some performance give away to them because of that.

You also need a professional level tubing bender and flaring tool and a few days of work with some trial and error.

The Classic Fuel injection would be the way to go though. Those are the Weber IDA look alike bodies and have no external fuel rails.

They are the most expensive of the systems. Around $2800 without the manifold.

Any way you decide, it is going to keep you busy for quite a while. There is a lot of engineering you will need to do for the Pantera that no one does. They just set them up for a Cleveland and that's the easy part.

Engineering it for your car is the tough part, but for me it's fun and keeps me out of trouble.

The hard lines solve a lot of issues and create virtually none.

The problem with these set ups is people turn this strictly into aesthetics and it's like trying to shop for furniture with your wife. You like the black leather with the table over there and she likes the pink flowered pattern with the lace doilies? Roll Eyes

Mine will stand up to function and practicality both for street and full out race. Everything has maximum serviceability. Cool

For instance, a lot of people criticize my headers. They don't like the flange where they bolt together in the middle. They think the tubes are too big. They are 2".

Precision Proformance (Ford Power Parts made these for Hall) will make them for you now in one piece without the flange. Some others will as well now. These cost me $800. You can't beat that, so...a little ugly is ok right?

The problem with that is that you are going to have a tough time getting them on the engine without bending them over the heads or removing the heads (or one of them) to get them on.

With the current taste in one piece 180 headers, if you need to remove them to service the engine(like for redoing the valves in the heads) you are going to have a hell of a time with the headers and good luck on getting them back on.

You are going to discover that the engine heat has warped them up pretty good and that the bolt holes won't line up on the flanges?

If you are going to stay with under car design headers like the GTS design, you are going to discover they don't work well and give away about 100hp to the same setup in a Mustang.

When the Cleveland was still in production Ford recommended headers 2" od, 36" long with a 3-1/2" collector, 9" long. Do you see that in the under car Pantera headers anywhere?

I guess I do have a problem with that because if I was going to spend $5000 to $6000 for the induction, the exhaust better work too?

My point here is if I was going to run under car headers, the vacuum plumbing likely would have a different solution. For one thing, I wouldn't need a heat shield from the headers.

People have to learn the hard way unfortunately, including me. Maybe this is why the Panteras never seem to get finished?

Here at least my solution will give others ideas and my posts will have served a Pantera community service. You can get a lot of the fittings in red also. You don't need to stay with blue.

Even the tubes could be black.

Nothing that I know of in the setup is available in pink though. Just so you should know. Just in case your wife asks?

The "Doug Nash" IR magnesium intake was a three piece manifold. It was made that way so it could be used on any engine using a Boss or Cleveland head just by changing the valley plate.

Nash used three or four socket head screws to bolt the plate to each of the two separate manifolds.

Your's sounds like this. Just bolt the three pieces together on the bottom where no one will see that.

Good luck.
Last edited by panteradoug
a lot of good points doug. i'd rather something function well vs sacrificing for appearance and fixing things over and over. i understand guys like to dress stuff up to show it off especially when you plunk down a lot of change for something, but I tend to lean toward functionality.

I think the functionality of multiple systems working together is what got me into this hobby. most of my projects are always in a state of change as a result unfortunately. i've always enjoyed the plethora of unique ford parts out on the market and the racing heritage with fords.

all the points you made about the 180's is what sold me on them as well. why build a naturally aspirated motor with a 4000 dollar IR intake if you are going to cork it with a 200 dollar exhaust. I do like the look of the Ansa exhaust as I think it is most fitting for a classic pantera and gives it the hot rod look, but performance has always been my interest, so its something i'm willing to sacrifice.

it wasn't until i bought the pantera that i became interested in clevelands, most folks in the mustang world just skip them over to the large windsors and stay with the inline heads because that is what they are used to and more commonplace. i've learned a lot about the cleveland through dan, george, and folks like yourself so it has made the learning curve less steep especially when people share their experiences.

i find satisfaction in making a pushrod ford compete on the street with newer performance vehicles being churned out. I try to share my builds as much as I can, including failings, but I know after I get it running a few locals (non pantera folks) will be searching here for info, and i'd rather they be in the dark to some degree Wink. its certainly not because i don't want to share with my pantera bretheren.

anyway back on topic, here is a picture that i mocked up for fitment before i started taking the shortblock a part to swap the cam and accessories. there is definitely some room in the tunnel for a common vacuum plenum or log. the kinsler setup came with a fuel line arrangement when I bought it used which is nice, but I may re-arrange depending on which regulator I use and where I mount it, so its just hanging in this picture. I may steal the really nice weldon regulator I have on my mustang. The valley plate or 3rd piece isn't on in this picture because I was more interested in seeing how much room I have to adjust the distributor once it was mounted. it was previously on a 9.2 deck windsor using a distributor-less setup using 2 coils from a toyota supposedly. I run an accel gen6 on my mustang and picked up a F.A.S.T. classic system for the pantera which has a harness designed to replace a 5.0 ECU/harness. So I'm going to use a TFI 351w distributor and put on my bronze 351c gear and hope the shaft is the correct length when it gets here. if it doesn't work i found a guy who will sell me a 460 distributor with the TFI onboard locally. I'm hoping next week I can start assembling and degree the cam after I get parts back from the machinist. Then I'll turn my attention to building out the manifold.

There are no injectors installed in this picture, the kinsler setup came with some seimens deka 55lb/hr low impedence injectors that i used in my mustang, but i bought a set of FAST 65's from a member here. with only a 357ci motor and a ported set of early c3's it will be interesting to see if there is enough low rpm velocity to atomize these large of injectors at the lowest pulse width I should run at idle. 65's in theory could support 830 naturally aspirated HP at base 43.5 fuel pressure. I won't be near that and realistically i should step it down to a smaller injector like the 55's which would be better matched, but I'm going to give it a try tuning with them first.

oh and on the subject of failures, don't roll around a fully dressed 351c with a zf attached on a cheap engine cradle or you will bend the studs on the casters Smiler

Originally posted by Hustler:
comp, who made that bellhousing? thought the only other one out there was the lakewood/quicktime piece.

Some one said they had one. I told him they did not exist but still decided to buy it. It was what he said. The source is unknown. I have a quick time too. It is a few lbs lighter then this one.
The 400 has a big block bell housing.

The 400 is basically a Cleveland with an extra inch of deck and a big block bell housing pattern. You could source a rare FMX block with the small bellhousing but that isn't the smartest thing to do. FMX blocks are rare and if you have any trouble you have to source another rare FMX block.

400 block core charge was $50 as they are very common. Having a bell housing that fits the common block is golden.

Now Quicktime makes a big block bell housing but it is for the GT 40 with the ZF inverted. It has to be drilled for the Pantera.

I hate calling them "Big block" "small Block". That is really a Chevy term.
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