Skip to main content

Closed117 replies

Weber Carbs

P 72panteraMember
I am thinking about replacing the original set up on my 72 with a set of webers. Does anyone have ideas of what size carbs as well as what manifold i can use in order to aviod cutting the truck lid? I am OK if the back screen needs to be trimmed, but i would really like to avoid cutting into the body panels.

thx
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

George PGeorge PAdmin.
The carb size is 48mm. Weber sells two different models of 48mm two-barrel downdraft carburetors for this type of application; the taller 48 IDA which is a racing carburetor; or the more compact 48 IDF which is a more street friendly carburetor. There are 3 manifolds to choose from.

(1) There is a manifold manufactured by Hall Pantera for 48 IDA carbs that mates to the 351C with 4V heads. I've never seen this set-up installed without removal of the engine screen and a notch in the rear deck.



(2) There is a manifold manufactured by Aussie Speed for 48 IDF carbs that mates to the 351C with either 2V heads or 4V heads. With the right air filters this set-up will fit below the engine screen and deck.





(3) There is a manifold manufactured by Redline for 48 IDA carbs OR (with adapters) 48 IDF carbs. This manifold mates to the 351C with either 2V heads or 4V heads. Due to the height of the adapters I suspect this set up will require removal of the engine screen and a notch in the deck regardless of which carburetors are used.



There are several threads in the engine forum covering the subject of these carburetors, and independent runner (IR) induction in general.

-G
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
I was under the impression that there was a IDF manifold for the C available?
If that is so, they might fit under that part of the deck. Not sure if there would be any room for air flow to the stacks or any kind of an air filter?

Kelly Coefields FI manifold is the lowest and might be usable for the IDA's to fit under the deck?

YOU DO NOT NEED TO CUT THE DECK for clearance, at least on my car BUT if you cut the deck, save the piece you cut out. It could be put back in.
Last edited by panteradoug
George PGeorge PAdmin.
... and then there is this



A cross-ram manifold for 8.2" deck height small block Fords with conventional in-line valve heads. The carburetors are the very popular Weber 48 DCOE two barrel side draft carburetors. Somebody cast a limited number of the manifolds, according to Jim Inglese the manufacturer claims its a one time production run, i.e. when they are sold-out they will not be re-cast. You cannot buy the manifold alone, Inglese will only sell it complete with carburetors.

But damn it sure is bitchen looking.

Here's where it gets interesting. Price Motorsports (PME) sells an intake manifold adapter that would adapt this manifold to a 351 Cleveland with 2V heads (#AP-06). So get out your credit cards, nirvana is only two phone calls away!

Jim Inglese Weber Carburetion
Price Motorsport Engineering

-G
Last edited by George P
C coreypriceMember
Be ready for sticker shock on the Aussiespeed manifold.

Also, people have recommended to me to get everything set up from a guy like Jim Inglese. That way, you're off on the right foot.

I've also heard a lot of people bad-mouth the Weber carb setup from experience lately. They seem to love them when they are running right, though.

For a little more money, you can do fuel injection. Inglese makes 8-stack injection systems with self-tuning EZ EFI that I've heard works amazingly well. I heard that from the guy at TWM as well as Mark Johnson of IPSCO. There are plenty of Youtube videos showing how well the setup works.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Halls manifold is a structurally reinforced version of the "Detomaso" script manifold that was sold through the Detomaso parts department.

It is said to be originally built by Holman-Moody and the patterns sold to Detomaso.

The Detomaso manifold had the reputation of being "thin" and easy to break? Hall beefed it up.

Since the entire set up was never intended to be anything other then the racing induction setup for the factory Group 4 cars, fitting under the screen on a race car was never even a consideration.

This is a racing induction system. All the complaints about it result from the disappointment of thinking it is a completely tractable "street" system.

That never was a consideration for it. It is a system that can be made to be "acceptable" for street use.

The biggest issue is that people presume that with all this carburation that the 351 should pull like a 427. That right there is a problem.

From what I know from playing with high performance cars for the last 40 years I would say that most people, maybe 98%, will hate the set up.

Then again, most people who love Panteras are in the minority anyway so who knows for sure?

I would add that from what I have seen of the fuel injection system built on this manifold, that although the fuel injection correct SOME of the issues, the carbs pull harder and make more power.

Of course there are and will always be those people who feel the need for re-inventing the wheel?
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I Don't mean to sound negative but if you are bored with your life, convert to Webers; that will give you (or a hired tuner) something to do for the forseeable future. In case you've never played with Webers before, your very FIRST purchase should be a good Halon fire extinguisher, as small backfires are the order of the day, and they can/will catch the air cleaners & anything close by on fire.
Your second purchase should be a Weber manual (3 or 4 manuals will be better), because there are 5 jets and two air-bleeds for each cylinder and they all interact to a degree while you are tuning. The venturis and aux-venturis also are changeable and there are no cold-start chokes; Webers use a fuel-richening circuit instead. The cheapest jet sold is about $5 so expect to accumulate quite a collection of part$ you will never use again and which are useless to most other sufferers. In engine fires, the aux-venturis are pot-metal and will melt.
Having spent a solid year getting a set of Webers running well with decent fuel mileage, if I was to contemplate abusing myself again this way, I would use a side-draft intake with Weber-lookalike EFI throttle bodies from TWM. D Quella sells a well-sorted EFI system that can use such throttle bodies or short style downdraft types both of which DO fit under a stock engine screen without cutting the decklid, and once tuned, do not change with every passing cloud in the sky. For $5000.
Did I mention there are Weber-copies available from China via E-Bay and late-night swap meets? They are excellent visual copies except for porosity in the castings plus all the usual far-east-copy probems. Some actually work, too.
Original Italian Weber carburetors were discontinued in the late '80s but one small division in Spain still occasionally makes "original" Weber carbs in a few sizes.
Finally, the 48 IDA and 48DCOEs are really too small for a performance 351C. What's needed IMHO is about 58 IDAs, of which there were exactly 6 sets ever made. But dune buggy off-roaders and sand-drag race shops have such carbs (& larger) available sort-of-reasonably. Not one single part comes from Weber, though. BTW, Jim Inglese sold his CA carb & injection business in 2010 and now runs a new one on the East Coast. The original 'Inglese Inc' is not associated in any way with him but both places sell more-or-less the same things. Good luck.
italforditalfordMember
I do not doubt that the Weber carbs are a long term PITA. The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable?
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I Don't mean to sound negative but if you are bored with your life, convert to Webers; that will give you (or a hired tuner) something to do for the forseeable future. In case you've never played with Webers before, your very FIRST purchase should be a good Halon fire extinguisher, as small backfires are the order of the day, and they can/will catch the air cleaners & anything close by on fire.
Your second purchase should be a Weber manual (3 or 4 manuals will be better), because there are 5 jets and two air-bleeds for each cylinder and they all interact to a degree while you are tuning. The venturis and aux-venturis also are changeable and there are no cold-start chokes; Webers use a fuel-richening circuit instead. The cheapest jet sold is about $5 so expect to accumulate quite a collection of part$ you will never use again and which are useless to most other sufferers. In engine fires, the aux-venturis are pot-metal and will melt.
Having spent a solid year getting a set of Webers running well with decent fuel mileage, if I was to contemplate abusing myself again this way, I would use a side-draft intake with Weber-lookalike EFI throttle bodies from TWM. D Quella sells a well-sorted EFI system that can use such throttle bodies or short style downdraft types both of which DO fit under a stock engine screen without cutting the decklid, and once tuned, do not change with every passing cloud in the sky. For $5000.
Did I mention there are Weber-copies available from China via E-Bay and late-night swap meets? They are excellent visual copies except for porosity in the castings plus all the usual far-east-copy probems. Some actually work, too.
Original Italian Weber carburetors were discontinued in the late '80s but one small division in Spain still occasionally makes "original" Weber carbs in a few sizes.
Finally, the 48 IDA and 48DCOEs are really too small for a performance 351C. What's needed IMHO is about 58 IDAs, of which there were exactly 6 sets ever made. But dune buggy off-roaders and sand-drag race shops have such carbs (& larger) available sort-of-reasonably. Not one single part comes from Weber, though. BTW, Jim Inglese sold his CA carb & injection business in 2010 and now runs a new one on the East Coast. The original 'Inglese Inc' is not associated in any way with him but both places sell more-or-less the same things. Good luck.


Fire is over rated. Just don't look down the stacks when you are firing it up. You will burn off your eyebrows, and that makes you look surprised. I hate that.

The kids in the neighborhood love to see me start the car in the dark. It looks a little like a volcanic eruption.

54mm is what you need for the 351c. The bore should match the valve size in this case.

The 58's didn't work very well. That's why there are only 6 sets.

Running "Webers" is a life style. Cool people understand this.

All carbs change with the weather. Racers use the term "good/bad air". That's what they are talking about.

The sensitivity is not from the carbs it results from an individual runner manifold.

The fuel injection does not run much better. There is one of Colorado, Pantera Performance Center Pantera's cars here and to put it frankly, it runs like do-do. Do-do isn't worth 5 grand...to me.

48ida's on an individual runner intake manifold is a racing setup. As such, it comes with all the rights and privileges. For a little use street vehicle they are ok.
Last edited by panteradoug
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:
Originally posted by ItalFord:

... The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable ...

Every single cylinder internal combustion engine ever built has been equipped with independent runner induction. (single cylinder street motorcycles, dirt bikes, lawnmowers, power edgers, garden tillers, chain saws, leaf blowers, portable generators, cement mixers, construction air compressors, portable arc welders, motor boat engines, the list goes on and on). Multi-cylinder engines found on a lot of sporting equipment like "sport bikes" and several sports cars have also been equipped with carbureted IR systems. Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Alfas, Lotus, Jaguars, Aston Martins ... even a European Ford Escort was equipped with IDF Webers.

There is an overwheling amount of evidence that an IR system can be a reliable and drivable induction system for a street automobile. It is a combination of carburetor set-up and camshaft design that will most influence the success. The things in a camshaft's design that will hurt an IR system are too much overlap, overlap that is not centered on TDC, or a late closing intake valve.

Modern camshaft design with narrow lobe separation, lots of overlap, a steep and narrow torque curve, a lopey idle, and a tire frying low rpm powerband is not a good match for an IR induction system. This is why Inglese Systems sells camshafts to compliment their induction systems; all of their camshafts have 115 degree lobe separation angles. My camshaft spec that I call the Cobra Jet cam would make a good cam for an IR system too. The 351C 4V cylinder head imbues a motor with a wide flat torque curve and therefore a wide flat powerband, with a strong mid-range rush. My camshaft spec was set-up to compliment that type of powerband. This type of torque curve and powerband is an ideal characterisitic for an IR induction system too, IR induction is very good at operating over a wide powerband with a strong mid-range rush. I am convinced the 351C 4V cylinder head was designed with IR induction in mind.

One problem I have encountered is that some people are not willing to give up their narrow LSA "hot rod camshaft" when they install an IR system; in being stubborn like that they've already destined their street motor project to difficulty or doom, in my opinion.

-G
Last edited by George P
edgeedgeMember
As has been documented elsewhere on this Forum, I went down the EFI path.
Took a while to get it right & a steep learning curve but persistence paid off.
I wanted the Weber look, but without the carbie tuning headaches.
Now I have a car that fires up reliably on cold mornings, has a crisp clean throttle response & a pleasure to drive. And as yet, I haven’t needed to re-tune anything to keep it that way.
And yes it occasionally does back fire though the stacks, likely a “Hot Rod Cam” issue as George mentions.

Regards,
Tony.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • STACKED_copy
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
quote:
Originally posted by ItalFord:

... The Maserati Bora we have owned since 1977 has never given us any problems what so ever. The car runs smooth and never changes its tune with the wind. I wonder if this is a function of the build / system quality? Don't know. Why would'nt the pantera system be so unreliable ...

Every single cylinder internal combustion engine ever built has been equipped with independent runner induction. (single cylinder street motorcycles, dirt bikes, lawnmowers, power edgers, garden tillers, chain saws, leaf blowers, portable generators, cement mixers, construction air compressors, portable arc welders, motor boat engines, the list goes on and on). Multi-cylinder engines found on a lot of sporting equipment like "sport bikes" and several sports cars have also been equipped with carbureted IR systems. Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Porsches, Alfas, Lotus, Jaguars, Aston Martins ... even a European Ford Escort was equipped with IDF Webers.

There is an overwheling amount of evidence that an IR system can be a reliable and drivable induction system for a street automobile. It is a combination of carburetor set-up and camshaft design that will most influence the success. The things in a camshaft's design that will hurt an IR system are too much overlap, overlap that is not centered on TDC, or a late closing intake valve.

Modern camshaft design with narrow lobe separation, lots of overlap, a steep and narrow torque curve, a lopey idle, and a tire frying low rpm powerband is not a good match for an IR induction system. This is why Inglese Systems sells camshafts to compliment their induction systems; all of their camshafts have 115 degree lobe separation angles. My camshaft spec that I call the Cobra Jet cam would make a good cam for an IR system too. The 351C 4V cylinder head imbues a motor with a wide flat torque curve and therefore a wide flat powerband, with a strong mid-range rush. My camshaft spec was set-up to compliment that type of powerband. This type of torque curve and powerband is an ideal characterisitic for an IR induction system too, IR induction is very good at operating over a wide powerband with a strong mid-range rush. I am convinced the 351C 4V cylinder head was designed with IR induction in mind.

One problem I have encountered is that some people are not willing to give up their "hot rod camshaft" when they install an IR system; in being stubborn like that they've already destined their project to doom, in my opinion.

-G


What essentially you are saying is that it is the camshaft timing creating the "problems" with the system. I can't disagree with it BUT 1) when these systems were raced in competition back in the day, they were run with radical race cams with no regard to reversion in the intake manifold. 2) I personally have been runing a solid lifter cam with 74 degrees of overlap, since 1981. The issues with that are over rated.
My car was set up in 1980. There were no special "Weber cam" grinds in existence then. Inglese was talking about having one ground and trying it.

First off, Jim Inglese had nothing to do with that "Weber" camshaft design. You give the criteria to the cam grinder and they design it. It is now sold by Comp Cams but was originally a Cam Techniques profile. That cam is hydraulic lifter. Even though it has .581 lift lacks top end big time on the track. It really is a 6000rpm limit cam. It really isn't what you want to run with the Webers.

Jim's role model was Dean Moon. He wanted to have his decals on all the race cars like the Moon eyes, but the eyes were taken. That company is now owned by the Holley conglomerate which is also CompCams, is based in Tennessee and has nothing to do with him.

Jim has reemerged as a Weber tuner and is still in North Branford, CT. He was at the most recent SAAC Convention at Watkins Glenn, NY, seen tuning running systems on some of the cars. He is a good source for tuning these systems. I'd recommend him to you.

Contrary to other comments, once tuned, the carbs do not come out of tune. What happens is that when you have a "bad air" situation with the atmosphere, the drop in power is so dramatic that people assume there is something wrong. There isn't. This happens with Holley single 4v carbs also.

The Weber cam was made so that people's air filters wouldn't catch on fire. This is a race set up. It is intended to be run with WITHOUT air filters.

I will point out that the 69Boss 302 Trans Am cars with the dual Holley Domination Holleys and the special individual runner manifold exhibit the exact reversion characteristics as the Webers do.

The solution there is to use a "carb cover" that is a certain distance from the carb inlets so that the fuel droplets accumulate on the inside of the "air cleaner top", drain and cause no fire hazard.

Not coincidentally, the GT40 Mark 1 had a cookie tray cover over the top of the carbs. There is no question in my mind why it was put there. That engine ran Fords "LeMans cam" (which can be run on the street) which has 82 degrees of overlap and advertised 321 degrees of duration. You might say that it was designed for that combination, no air filters, just open stacks.

That car, the GT40 MkI, without the cookie tray will fog the rear window with fuel droplets.

The "Weber cam" is nothing other then a compromise to this reversion issue caused by an IR manifold. The 28 degree over lap that it gives you doesn't eliminate it. It reduces the reversion.


I have found that the "cloud" of fuel vapor "hangs" just over the top of the standard 2-1/2" high velocity stacks.

If you use 5" tall stacks it will stay inside of the stack.

The 5" stack fits very well into the Pantera engine compartment dimensions. Just put screens over them. That's all you need.

48ida's don't like air filters and in particular ones made with paper.



The "Weber" cam also cuts the testicles off of the system. If you want to reduce the power down to 380 to 400hp from 550 to 600, that's the cam to run, absolutely. If you want power from the system, do not use the Weber cam. It is down well over 100 hp at the wheels.

The back fire really isn't one at all. You are actually seeing the opening of the intake valve and the cam timing allows you to see the flame. i've found that in the case of the Ford 351c with Webers that you want to run the AF42 plug rather then the AF32 that you would normally run with a high compression stock iron head.

You actually will get a similar reaction with a 360 or 180 single four barrel (or 2v) with a center plenum, if your choke opens too fast before the engine is warmed.

The aluminum heads are even more sensitive to plug temp range then the iron. They are players in the "back fire" since part of that is blowing carbon off of a partially fouled plug. Run a hotter plug. It helps.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • 2015-08-02_16.02.49
Last edited by panteradoug
joulesjoules"Racing is Life, anything before or after is just waiting" - Steve McQueen
Here's my 2 cents;

Weber carbs generally get a bad rap from people who haven't invested the time to set them up correctly. They buy set on Ebay and expect them to bolt on like a regular carb. There can be a lot of initial investment in time and cost.

The AussieSpeed 351C IDF manifold isn't that overpriced when you consider pricing for IDA manifolds mentioned above. The difference is you won't find a used one. The US$ is devalued and exchange rates play a part of perceived cost here too. I tried to pull together a group buy some time back, but could never quite get 5 people committed to get the discount. This is the manifold (Based on a Cain manifold) that will fit under the engine screen and decklid with IDF's and the IDF's are more street oriented.

EFI is always going to be better if set up correctly, it's comparing apples to oranges a quarter century apart.

For a real nice cross ram EFI system look at Morrison, the Aussies still know how to do Cleveland better than most.

http://www.morrisonoz.com/FordManifolds.html

Julian
G gilliganMember
The discussions in this thread are killin' me! The project car I just bought has the Hall intake with quad 48IDAs and a heavy clunky billet air cleaner assembly that I plan to "lose".

Some years back I was converting a Holman-Moody 427 in one of my Donzis to quad webers using the H-M intake. I still have the parts but the engine is still sporting a single Holley...other projects got in the way and the weber conversion is still on the to-do list.

The moral of that story is that I've yet to tackle a weber conversion and actually get it running properly. But on the other hand, I've done several custom EFI conversions, including one on a 1949 8BA flathead V-8. What to do?..I really want the Pantera to sport the webers..and of course I also want to enjoy the car.
macmanmacmanMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
You're not lucky MacMan, you have a well set up system. You aren't the only one though. Tell me more about the screen insert you built around the velocity stacks please. Did you fabricate that out of metal or is that molded out of fiberglass, carbon fiber or something else?


Metal frame covered in fiberglass, similar to how you might do a speaker enclosure. I'll send you a pick of it in the rough (don't want to hijack the thread) Smiler
belgiumbarrybelgiumbarryMember
that Morisson is NIRVANA...but besides sure better MPH , can anybody tell what HP gain there is in just switching that 8000 $ formula 1 Cosworth look-alike for a simple Holley or Edelbrock on a stock Cleveland ??? oh, and yes, you need a higher pressure fuel pump i suppose, computer etc...worse with the webbers...less MPH and what HP gain in the 2000 - 6000 revs we use on our roads ....???? or just loose torque for that racy sound ????
panteradougpanteradougMember
The Webers are not bad on fuel consumption set up right. 18-20mpg on the road is about right with them as oppose to 12-15 with a single Holley.

I wouldn't think HP would be up with fuel injection. Torque might be flatter through the rpm range though. The FI is not going to give you more horse power potential at all.

I agree with the Morrison being outrageously beautiful but the hp per dollar ratio is not going to be a good one with it.

Might start to give you some of the FI type whine you hear from the Lamborghini's with the FI though?

I would think 5.7 Ford vs. 5.7 Lambo FI, hp would be comparable.
belgiumbarrybelgiumbarryMember
yes, i agree...but then we are back to the car itself...don't know, i have a perfect less 10k miles GT5S , my engine with Edelbrock carb and, i suppose, a comp cam is pulling that hard that it gives the same feeling in gear 3,4..5 as it was in 2...as it spins up the same, only the mph goes up Big Grin i have "prof" coilovers and race tires...and still the feeling that there is enough power the car can handle....OK, for a straight pulling mayby yes, but then again, the curves are the more pleasure ! no, i'm very happy with the "stock" potential and don't need 500HP nor F1 sound.... Wink it's already scary enough Cool
edgeedgeMember
What I noticed going from the Holley to the injection, (combined with the 11:1 compression heads) was a much snappier throttle response.
A lot of this would be the bumping up of the compression.
Real easy to arc up the wheels & the rear to step out on gear changes as it is so “instant on”.
Almost like a sports bike snappy throttle.
Fuel consumption?, I just keep filling it up with 98, no idea how much it uses, seems reasonable though.
Sound: almost has a supercharger gear buzzing noise happening as the air rushes into the stacks.
Currently I have no real air cleaners, just fine stainless gauze within the stacks & stretch over “outerwear” mesh screens on top of the stacks.
On the Dyno it was 320 hp at the wheels, which would equate to approx 390 crank hp, (on a 36 degree C day which is not ideal).
With a dead flat torque curve.
So, to my mind what I like is the fantastic throttle response, the sound, the look & above all, the reliability that injection offers once set up.

Regards,
Tony.
Last edited by edge
panteradougpanteradougMember
What heads are you using. Small port 3v type heads will give you crisper response. So will a small vacuum carb like a Holley 1850.

The Edelbrocks are mechanical secondaries. They aren't necessarily the best idea with the stock 4v heads.

Cam timing and muffler changes will change the growl and sound of the engine too.

The FI Mustangs with the same equipment, i.e., headers, Flowmaster mufflers, agressive cam sound identical to the Holley equipped ones.

The biggest advantage to the FI is tuning with the computer and better cold weather startup and running. Other then that I see little advantage.

Well...lack of fire risk is an advantage to the EFI over carbs. There is no fuel held in them like the carbs have.

What catches fire though is the elements on the air cleaners. The paper elements are the most susceptible since they just become fuel sponges from the reversion pulses.

So +1 to the EFI on that count.
Last edited by panteradoug
kidkidMember
I have since quite some time a kit on the shelf (48 IDA), and it will take quite some more time before I get to install it. Probably until the point I go for a complete engine overhaul, so I can get all related tech aspecs as I really want them.

The Hall manifold is OK, but could be made better. Carbs and channels do mismatch a bit - not badly or such, but could be better - and needed some machining to make sure all bolts would fit. An aspect to reckon with is that Hall only sells the manifold - you'll have to sort out the linkage yourself. No prob you'd think, as linkage systems are offered all over, but as I found out, those often offered and currently in use by many, will work, but not make all butterflies work synchronous - and that does not only apply to the Hall manifold. For that matter I did cut off the pedestal, had a new one made, and will have it reweld where it should.

panteradougpanteradougMember
That set up is shown on Inglese's web page.

The Pantera manifold is designed for the Pantera throttle cable. The carburetors face out so that the throttle plates of the carbs give line of sight to the intake valve.

Both are correct for a racing manifold.

The linkage is really very simple for it. It works off of the center pilon and a short arm connects to the right side carbs under, and the left side carbs over with a longer arm and mount to the wheel on the center tower with an extended coupling nut. It's about 1-1/2" long (tall).

I don't know if Detomaso added the tower to the original Holman-Moody design or H-M designed it for the Pantera that way? I've never seen the original H-M version. Only the DT version, of which I'll bet there were maybe 50 made. They are VERY rare.

Since Weber carb shafts twist like there is no tomorrow, you can't load the carbs from anyplace but in the middle.

The bearings in the carbs neither will tolerate being end loaded without almost .100" of deflection. That means the left and right side would never open together as they should if you end load them.

You can eliminate the center mount and go to a Mustang side mount system simultaneously with reversing one side of the carbs.

This is something Inglese recommends to simplify the linkage issues.

Reversing the carbs on one side will loose you 30 horsepower by putting those throttle plates on the wrong side of the ports.

If you think Halls manifold is flimsy, you ain't seen nothin' till you see the Detomaso version.

I've owned two Hall manifolds and had zero issues with the production qualities. One with the big 4v port and one small port (A3).

The 4v version was on my Mustang and it made sense to convert it to the side mount linkage like the Cobras used and face the carbs the same way. It made life much simpler but even that likage design had an issue with twisting at wide open throttle. After running wot, the car would not return to 800rpm idle. The linkage had twisted.

The Pantera center pivot has much less issue with that. You will also discover that there really is no perfect linkage design for this set up.

The nicest one I saw was the 427 design with the carbs mounting 90 degrees from what we all have now since that made a simple pull design of the carbs so easy. The reason it was never run extensively has got to be the throttle tip in location and the line of sight to the valve location. After all. All of them were intended for maximum performance at racing levels. Not street-ability.


There is enough material in the flanges of the manifold to bore them out considerably and any manifold I've EVER used needed some type of gasket cleanup. That's no big deal at all.

There isn't quite enough material to bore them out to 58mm but certainly the 51.5mm Berg modified IDA's will fit.

Nice setup Kid. I like the low glitz them. Big Grin
kidkidMember
quote:

That set up is shown on Inglese's web page.


Indeed, he put it together for me - the cat is shown under "customer cars"

quote:

The linkage is really very simple for it. It works off of the center pilon and a short arm connects to the right side carbs under, and the left side carbs over with a longer arm and mount to the wheel on the center tower with an extended coupling nut. It's about 1-1/2" long (tall).


True, it worked this way originally, until I did spot "some things". I shared my findings, and the design of the linkage system offered by him got changed. Note that the same mistake is made by most who have a similar system in use - it simply is a technically incorrect set-up.

quote:

I like the low glitz them


My English is reasonably, but this kind of "slang"(?) language baffles me... Explain that to me please Wink
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Kid:
quote:

That set up is shown on Inglese's web page.


Indeed, he put it together for me - the cat is shown under "customer cars"

quote:

The linkage is really very simple for it. It works off of the center pilon and a short arm connects to the right side carbs under, and the left side carbs over with a longer arm and mount to the wheel on the center tower with an extended coupling nut. It's about 1-1/2" long (tall).


True, it worked this way originally, until I did spot "some things". I shared my findings, and the design of the linkage system offered by him got changed. Note that the same mistake is made by most who have a similar system in use - it simply is a technically incorrect set-up.

quote:

I like the low glitz them


My English is reasonably, but this kind of "slang"(?) language baffles me... Explain that to me please Wink


Your English is very excellent. Glitz would be something that you would have to wear sunglasses to see without the reflection of the light blinding your eyes. Big Grin

I think the linkage is all going to be a compromise. Just depends where?

Inglese has a lot of experience. I don't argue with him.

We call him JimIn around here. Explanation? He had gotten custom license plates for his car but at the time there were only six characters that you could add to the license plate.

Obviously he wanted to get Jim Inglese but just shortened it. Maybe he meant that he was Jimin down the street? roll on floor
J jmm3Member
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Bring them to Jimin. He'll figure them out...eventually. Big Grin

Those are IDF's. The spacing between them requires a different solution then on the IDA's.

I know I can't buy an off the shelf solution (just look at that jackshaft!)

I have made a great linkage, but once installed in the car, the throttle cable does not route very well. I am looking at pictures of all solutions, and would be very interested to see yours.

Thanks!
panteradougpanteradougMember
I'll see what I can post tomorrow. The routing of the throttle cable has to go under the distributor in able to get to the center pedestal.

That part is tight, yes.

You need to make a new bracket to hold the cable centered so it doesn't bind running to the pedestal.

My pictures will not show that since the setup is out of the car on the bench getting the bearings replaced. All it will show is the linkage and that is tough to photograph because of where it is located.

Send the setup here if you want. I'll do the linkage for free. I work for food these days.
J jmm3Member
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I'll see what I can post tomorrow. The routing of the throttle cable has to go under the distributor in able to get to the center pedestal.

That part is tight, yes.

You need to make a new bracket to hold the cable centered so it doesn't bind running to the pedestal.

My pictures will not show that since the setup is out of the car on the bench getting the bearings replaced. All it will show is the linkage and that is tough to photograph because of where it is located.

Send the setup here if you want. I'll do the linkage for free. I work for food these days.


Remember I have a 347 (302 windsor) and everything looked great until I pushed the distributor all the way down, and the low deck just pinched everything more than a 351. I will send you some pics of what I have, I truly appreciate your input.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by JMM3:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I'll see what I can post tomorrow. The routing of the throttle cable has to go under the distributor in able to get to the center pedestal.

That part is tight, yes.

You need to make a new bracket to hold the cable centered so it doesn't bind running to the pedestal.

My pictures will not show that since the setup is out of the car on the bench getting the bearings replaced. All it will show is the linkage and that is tough to photograph because of where it is located.

Send the setup here if you want. I'll do the linkage for free. I work for food these days.


Remember I have a 347 (302 windsor) and everything looked great until I pushed the distributor all the way down, and the low deck just pinched everything more than a 351. I will send you some pics of what I have, I truly appreciate your input.


First of all, I am not just limited to the scope of a Pantera. I also have a 68 Shelby GT350. That has the identical engine as your Magusta does. It also is a 347. It does not have the albatross of a cable throttle in it however.

I ran these same IDA's in it at one time with a Boss 351. It now runs the 67 Mustang Trans-Am set up of the high rise 2x4 intake with two 4160 Holleys. (On the original 302 block and heads with a 347 hidden within). It is a much simpler animal that way.

If you can't lower the water, raise the bridge.
I know exactly what the problem is there with the throttle cable and the distributor clearances. In your case it may by necessary to extend the length of the distributor enough to raise it so the throttle cable can run under without it kinking.

You could consider running an offset distributor just to get room for the throttle cable. I don't know if that is possible even in the Pantera because the distributor is so close to the window. Maybe you can do that in the goose since the deck height of the engine is 8.2" instead of 9.2", and sits the engine lower in the chassis?

As the Southern Evangelist 'Preacher' MIGHT say..."Brothers and Sisters, I feel your pain". Wink

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • H-M_offset_distributor
Last edited by panteradoug
edgeedgeMember
quote:
What heads are you using. Small port 3v type heads will give you crisper response. So will a small vacuum carb like a Holley 1850.

The Edelbrocks are mechanical secondaries. They aren't necessarily the best idea with the stock 4v heads.

Cam timing and muffler changes will change the growl and sound of the engine too.

The FI Mustangs with the same equipment, i.e., headers, Flowmaster mufflers, agressive cam sound identical to the Holley equipped ones.

The biggest advantage to the FI is tuning with the computer and better cold weather startup and running. Other then that I see little advantage.


Heads are CHI 3V that expand up to the 4V profile to match the IR manifold.
I see FI as far superior in many ways to a carbie.
I had the advantage of having the car tuned by a friend who spent the time on the Dyno setting up ignition & fuel curves at 200 rpm increments at low revs & 500 rpm increments at higher rpm.
So it’s very finely tuned to stay in the 14:1 Air/Fuel ratio & the ignition set accordingly.
What car is still sold off the showroom floor with a carbie?
Sure there are as many economic & production related reasons why car manufacturers all fit injection.
But injection is so much more efficient, not only can it be tuned much more precisely right through the rev range to optimize the engines characteristics, but also more reliable.
Set up correctly it has to produce more power compared to a carbie.
How could it not do so when you have almost infinite adjustment of nearly all the parameters.
It’s simply a more precise & finely tuned tool.

regards,
Tony.
panteradougpanteradougMember
"I have no doubt he has a lot of experience, but it is good practice to question things now and then. If not, people would still be making fire with a couple of stones..."

No, no. I make fire with my Webers at start up. There is a difference. Wink


@ Tony
It's a beautiful set up for sure. I expected you to say 3v heads. That makes a lot of sense from what you are describing.
In the US, carbs gave way to FI for emissions compliance more then any other reason. More precise fleet fuel economy ratings are also involved.
I'm sure you could write a book on the setup now? Smiler
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
JMM3


OK, you asked to see mine, so this is them.

The long 3/8 hex was added just for the pictures to show you the orientation that normally the throttle cable occupies.

It is very close under the distributor on my Cleveland too, but it clears. I think that the offset distributor MIGHT work for you though.

You could also relocate the spot on the firewall where the cable comes through to align over the top of the drivers valve cover and go to the side mount bracket that Inglese makes.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Pantera_Webers_001
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
As you see, the spacing of IDA's vs IDF are different enough.

There is another linkage for them and it will tend to twist on the tang more then the IDA does.

The true test of the linkage is to run the car at WOT and see if the engine returns to it's 800rpm idle.

In my case it is 650 and with the non-Weber cam in there, the engine sounds like a marching band. Boom, boom, bad-bad boom boom, etc, etc, etc! Big Grin
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
Good luck on it. If you need help, PM me. Maybe I can offer some suggestions in what to try?
The linkage on multiple Weber carbs is anything but childs play.

I've tried a lot of combinations and discovered many pitfalls.

You want your linkage as simple as possible and as easy as possible to service on the car.

The Pantera is not an easy car to have to do work on while on the car. I can only imagine the Mangusta is even more difficult. As a result on the Pantera it is better to do the linkage a certain way. What works on the bench could be an issue on the car itself.

The linkage also has the tendency of burning up the throttle bearings in the carbs because of all these 90 degree angle loading s and the quality of the factory bearings not being the best.

Even how you mount the carbs to the manifold is important. Using studs makes it difficult to get the carb off without dismantling the linkage. It's like having cylinder heads using studs rather then bolts.

It works fine in the shop but you may find that pulling off the head with studs in the car is impossible or close to it.

If you look at my setup, every carb kicks down within a matter of minutes. Even the fuel lines (which are 304 stainless steel tubing) are built in such a way that they are self supporting and need no individual clamps and are smooth so that you don't get cut up on the abrasiveness of the braided hoses.

The air cleaners have no clamps. The collars are Krazy glued to the velocity stacks. It is easier to remove the entire stack then to unclamp an air cleaner from it, and just replace the assembly with a bare stack when needed or desired.

The nuts that hold the carb tops on are stainless flanged nuts to make it faster to disassemble the carbs.

Just about everything in the assembly is there for a reason.

Ideally it would be better to have the curb idle screw (one) accessible from the outside rather then the inside but that is really a by product of the linkage arms available AND the orientation of the carbs themselves with the fuel lines on the outside of the carbs.

Inglese has a kit he makes that would point the carbs all in the same direction. This is for linkage simplification but 1) you loose hp (that you feel) and throttle response because 2 of the carbs are facing the wrong way in relation to line of sight to the intake valve and 2) it doesn't work well with center location throttle rods or cables. The throttle wheel mounts outside over the valve cover.
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
Here is one more picture you may find helpful. This is the bracket I needed to make to hold the throttle cable in the right location to clear the distributor.

It isn't fancy but it works. Like they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

Oops! This bracket is upside down in this picture. It won't fit under the distributor this way.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Weber_throtle_cable_bracket_001
Last edited by panteradoug
panteradougpanteradougMember
For all of the efforts necessary it is important to point out that they definitely do work, and work well.

This video shows a 351C, iron heads and all on the dyno. The fuel mist rises out of the velocity stacks as the rpms rise.

This is what we are talking about when we say "fuel reversion". You can also see why the air filters get soaked with fuel. Usually it is a paper based filter that goes up in flame...usually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdwWgSGqvc
(Unfortunately the video was removed. Too bad).

It showed 550hp on the dyno. 500 ft-lbs of torque. Good aluminum heads will put another 30hp on top of that.

The simple fact is that Webers aren't for everyone. In fact they aren't for most.

It is very difficult to explain them to anyone. Sometimes I think the only explanation of what they are like is to experience them?

I personally have never tried the DCOE sidedrafts. Don't talk about them. You will make me want a set. Wink
Last edited by panteradoug
C comp2Member
I don't know. I don't have any reason to believe i will have problems with it. It took a beer and a half a movie to get the spring set.

If you look at the small loop near the center, I locked it down with a 2-56 screw threaded in the aluminum. It is kind of small for what it does but it pins it next to the bolt and seems stout in place.

I first set the threaded bolt through the pulley to engage the outer loop but it flexed and came around the bolt. I re-bent the big loop but tapped and put in a 4-40 bolt next to the bolt in the pulley which goes in the small hole and holds it in place which works pretty well.

I first released the spring when it was coiled as was packaged but was too loose. I tightened it more (which took me several attempts and a beer). With it more tightly would it behaved and stayed in place.

At that point it is contained and works great. As to what the failure point would be, if the tabs are secured well, and I think they are, I should be good.

I don't want to say it's good with little or no testing. I hate it when people do dumb things then say "it worked for me". It's kind of like playing Russian roulette and saying It worked out ok for me; it's just a dumb thing people say.

However, it seems to be solid.
C comp2Member
PD,

How long is the Pantera throttle cable generally? Do you have a good source for throttle cables? I have used a throttle cable from the hot rod market for the MG but I never liked it. Too thin and cheap gave a lousy feel. I put in a larger housing and heavier cable and made a much better throttle cable set up for the MG. Just wondering who would source that kind of stuff.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Here's the view from the top with them on the car.

Since this pic was taken, I have gone to an electronic fuel pressure gauge and the sender takes the place of the gauge.

The original dip stick tube was put back in the car and the air filters were removed in favor of 5" screened open velocity stacks.

I wanted to run the filters but it just wasn't doable.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Pantera_Engine_View_From_The_Top_003
Last edited by panteradoug
hustlerhustlerMember
very nice doug, i'm trying to tell from the pictures, is that a vacuum log sitting below the gauge that you have each runner tapped and plumbed to, helping strengthen and cleanup vaccuum signal? I'm trying to figure out the best method for doing this, whether to use a log or some kind of tank that sits in the valley which I can attach the brake booster line to as well as plumb a remote idle air motor to for EFI. Kinsler just said to tune the car in alpha-n which uses a static fuel map whereas I would prefer to run it in speed density so that the computer could adjust to weather conditions on the fly.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Yes. Good eyes. Here's a picture of it while I was working on it.



It's actually a Mr.Gasket fuel log that I had bought that I finally found use for.
The brake booster is the -10 you see being taken from the t fitting in the middle.
The vacuum ports are plumbed in series to each side of the log.
I have PCV plumbed to either end of the log. You only see one here in this picture.
Vacuum gauge and vacuum advance are also plumbed in which you can see going to the 90 degree shinny brass fittings in the top view on the car. I like that better. This picture shows an earlier thought on them. That I changed.

The vacuum tubing is 1/4" od stainless 304, .035 wall. It's stiff. It supports the vacuum manifold fine and you are not going to bend or dent it easily on the car so where those tubes suspend the vacuum manifold are permanent (unless I rebend them in the vise) and are not going to vibrate around even under race conditions.



You can see the flexibility it gives you as far as what you want to connect to it and where. I've already varied the connections to it. I dropped the engine supplied PCV connection since the engine doesn't produce enough volume of vacuum, went to a CompCams vacuum pump, relocated an adjustable PCV valve to the rear of the left valve cover, but it still gives you an easy to reach connection to any other vacuum accessories like a vacuum gauge connection, etc. Just cap that -10 t-fitting being used as a coupling.



John Haas was just working on a similar set up on the blue Quella FI car and his solution was a little different for the FI MAP sensor which Quella had never installed.
That car was running with just a throttle position sensor. No Map. No oxygen sensor even.
Strictly as you mentioned, a Kinsler alpha-n sceme and as a result was running like ka-ka!

His solution takes up the entire valley.



I saw the space between the heat shield and the carbs as dead space and thought if I located the vacuum manifold in it that would maximize the available areas and make them more accessible to service and access?
The fuel log was almost the perfect length to work with.
Both valve covers now have PCV running to it. I thought it could breath through the dip stick tube? Nope. Wrong.

Webers in particular are rough on the oil rings.
Using a PCV system is definitely going to help them.

I would think an IR FI would be kinder but the sludge that you see accumulating internally is abrasive. The less you have, the better off the engine will be. It should have a functioning pcv also in my opinion.



Accessibility to me is very important. There isn't a lot of room to work with on an IR set up and I have big hands and yes a little... brain. Thought I was going to say something else huh? Smiler
This as you see it is a work in progress. I have found that solutions to one issue sometimes create another that was unforeseen.

This I think is the basic layout for me though but consider it a work in progress?



I also found, but didn't mention previously, that the Pantera throttle cable needs to be altered to work with the center tower pivot linkage.
You need to disassemble the carb end of it and remove the internal 7/16" rigid tube so that it is flexible and will curve to the carbs.

Also, stock the total travel is only 1-3/8". You need to increase that to 1-3/4" total so that the carbs will fully open. Disassembling the cable will give you that ability.



I post these details because I just don't remember anyone doing that before? No one has ever talked about with these set ups.I find that many of these answers are what others were struggling with and couldn't find answers or solutions anywhere that anyone would talk about?

Even Quella went to a different throttle cable that pulls from the drivers side. That's not necessary and just takes up more room that isn't available if you are going to service this engine.

I found that using the stock cable, modifying it and making the final adjustments on the throttle pedal inside the car were better solutions. It also put the pedal where it felt normal to my foot and gives me a very light pedal pressure like a current fuel injected car throttle would have with an electronic pedal.



Oh. This is not a cheap set up. You can start counting the fittings and total them up. The vacuum manifold set up in parts is around $300.

I just saw that Mr.Gasket fuel log on special on the internet for $14.99 new. I've seen them sell used for $35. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/...-Fuel-Log,44644.html

I like using readily available components as much as possible.

If you ask me, this fuel log is like it's made for this application? It couldn't fit better.



I'm still fighting with myself about when I'm gonna get paid for the labor? Smiler

Just my life experiences with this set up. Your mileage may vary!

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • Vacuum_manifold_on_Webers_001
Last edited by panteradoug
kidkidMember
No, not yet... Frowner

I'm making changes to the manifold and the linkage, and in the mean time I (after I blew up some valve guides) decided to remove the heads, and shop for new ones - a work in progress thus, especially as I have little time to work on the car.

Btw, I got rid of the vacumm manifold (too fancy to my taste), and besides that, will only use those lines for my (Electromotive) ignition kit. For the brake booster, I plan to use an electric pump.
hustlerhustlerMember
That looks really good doug, nice and tucked in close, looks like you just cleared the valve covers. Gives me some ideas on which route to take. I like the look of the hard line and -an fittings, just trying to figure out how to make it rigid enough using a 3 piece manifold. I will have to bring them inboard since the injection bungs and rails are on the outside. Yeah those fittings are ridiculously expensive, I've found its cheaper to buy on ebay with fragola vs earl's and some of the other brands on summit or jegs. You really have to plan out which fittings to buy beforehand because of the handling costs with those two if you forget a piece which I always do. Seems like when I find a local place that does sell these fittings their markup is a lot worse than summit/jegs I'm sure because it just doesn't move and sits. I probably have a small fortune of these things in a box that I try to pull from when I can.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Fregola is only useful for some of the obscure fittings (in my setup) like the 1/16 NPT to -4 adapters.

www.anplumbing.com for the Earls.



This set up will still work for your set up too. The fuel/vacuum log ports can be reversed from the outside to the center of the log.

The vacuum tubes clear the valve covers by an inch and tuck in well below the top of the covers.



You could strip the entire system down not directly involved in the induction and completely rebuild it (presuming you had all the parts ready) in about an hour, including the carbs) without having to remove anything not involved in the induction to get at it, and yet it still tucks in to the engine compartment.

The difficult thing in that set up, internal valley location, will be drilling the manifold for the adapters. There isn't a lot of room to work with on the cast Weber manifold. Whose 3 piece intake are you using, Kinsler?

I only saw that manifold on Charlie Kemps Mustang and not up close to check the details on it.



You are going to need a 90 degree drill and short bits to do the Hall in the internal valley location. For performance it would be the best manifold to use. The Australian manifolds are all shorter so there is some performance give away to them because of that.

You also need a professional level tubing bender and flaring tool and a few days of work with some trial and error.



The Classic Fuel injection would be the way to go though. Those are the Weber IDA look alike bodies and have no external fuel rails.

They are the most expensive of the systems. Around $2800 without the manifold.

Any way you decide, it is going to keep you busy for quite a while. There is a lot of engineering you will need to do for the Pantera that no one does. They just set them up for a Cleveland and that's the easy part.



Engineering it for your car is the tough part, but for me it's fun and keeps me out of trouble.

The hard lines solve a lot of issues and create virtually none.

The problem with these set ups is people turn this strictly into aesthetics and it's like trying to shop for furniture with your wife. You like the black leather with the table over there and she likes the pink flowered pattern with the lace doilies? Roll Eyes

Mine will stand up to function and practicality both for street and full out race. Everything has maximum serviceability. Cool

For instance, a lot of people criticize my headers. They don't like the flange where they bolt together in the middle. They think the tubes are too big. They are 2".

Precision Proformance (Ford Power Parts made these for Hall) will make them for you now in one piece without the flange. Some others will as well now. These cost me $800. You can't beat that, so...a little ugly is ok right?

The problem with that is that you are going to have a tough time getting them on the engine without bending them over the heads or removing the heads (or one of them) to get them on.



With the current taste in one piece 180 headers, if you need to remove them to service the engine(like for redoing the valves in the heads) you are going to have a hell of a time with the headers and good luck on getting them back on.

You are going to discover that the engine heat has warped them up pretty good and that the bolt holes won't line up on the flanges?



If you are going to stay with under car design headers like the GTS design, you are going to discover they don't work well and give away about 100hp to the same setup in a Mustang.

When the Cleveland was still in production Ford recommended headers 2" od, 36" long with a 3-1/2" collector, 9" long. Do you see that in the under car Pantera headers anywhere?

I guess I do have a problem with that because if I was going to spend $5000 to $6000 for the induction, the exhaust better work too?



My point here is if I was going to run under car headers, the vacuum plumbing likely would have a different solution. For one thing, I wouldn't need a heat shield from the headers.

People have to learn the hard way unfortunately, including me. Maybe this is why the Panteras never seem to get finished?

Here at least my solution will give others ideas and my posts will have served a Pantera community service. You can get a lot of the fittings in red also. You don't need to stay with blue.

Even the tubes could be black.

Nothing that I know of in the setup is available in pink though. Just so you should know. Just in case your wife asks?



The "Doug Nash" IR magnesium intake was a three piece manifold. It was made that way so it could be used on any engine using a Boss or Cleveland head just by changing the valley plate.

Nash used three or four socket head screws to bolt the plate to each of the two separate manifolds.

Your's sounds like this. Just bolt the three pieces together on the bottom where no one will see that.

Good luck.
Last edited by panteradoug
hustlerhustlerMember
a lot of good points doug. i'd rather something function well vs sacrificing for appearance and fixing things over and over. i understand guys like to dress stuff up to show it off especially when you plunk down a lot of change for something, but I tend to lean toward functionality.

I think the functionality of multiple systems working together is what got me into this hobby. most of my projects are always in a state of change as a result unfortunately. i've always enjoyed the plethora of unique ford parts out on the market and the racing heritage with fords.

all the points you made about the 180's is what sold me on them as well. why build a naturally aspirated motor with a 4000 dollar IR intake if you are going to cork it with a 200 dollar exhaust. I do like the look of the Ansa exhaust as I think it is most fitting for a classic pantera and gives it the hot rod look, but performance has always been my interest, so its something i'm willing to sacrifice.

it wasn't until i bought the pantera that i became interested in clevelands, most folks in the mustang world just skip them over to the large windsors and stay with the inline heads because that is what they are used to and more commonplace. i've learned a lot about the cleveland through dan, george, and folks like yourself so it has made the learning curve less steep especially when people share their experiences.

i find satisfaction in making a pushrod ford compete on the street with newer performance vehicles being churned out. I try to share my builds as much as I can, including failings, but I know after I get it running a few locals (non pantera folks) will be searching here for info, and i'd rather they be in the dark to some degree Wink. its certainly not because i don't want to share with my pantera bretheren.

anyway back on topic, here is a picture that i mocked up for fitment before i started taking the shortblock a part to swap the cam and accessories. there is definitely some room in the tunnel for a common vacuum plenum or log. the kinsler setup came with a fuel line arrangement when I bought it used which is nice, but I may re-arrange depending on which regulator I use and where I mount it, so its just hanging in this picture. I may steal the really nice weldon regulator I have on my mustang. The valley plate or 3rd piece isn't on in this picture because I was more interested in seeing how much room I have to adjust the distributor once it was mounted. it was previously on a 9.2 deck windsor using a distributor-less setup using 2 coils from a toyota supposedly. I run an accel gen6 on my mustang and picked up a F.A.S.T. classic system for the pantera which has a harness designed to replace a 5.0 ECU/harness. So I'm going to use a TFI 351w distributor and put on my bronze 351c gear and hope the shaft is the correct length when it gets here. if it doesn't work i found a guy who will sell me a 460 distributor with the TFI onboard locally. I'm hoping next week I can start assembling and degree the cam after I get parts back from the machinist. Then I'll turn my attention to building out the manifold.

There are no injectors installed in this picture, the kinsler setup came with some seimens deka 55lb/hr low impedence injectors that i used in my mustang, but i bought a set of FAST 65's from a member here. with only a 357ci motor and a ported set of early c3's it will be interesting to see if there is enough low rpm velocity to atomize these large of injectors at the lowest pulse width I should run at idle. 65's in theory could support 830 naturally aspirated HP at base 43.5 fuel pressure. I won't be near that and realistically i should step it down to a smaller injector like the 55's which would be better matched, but I'm going to give it a try tuning with them first.

oh and on the subject of failures, don't roll around a fully dressed 351c with a zf attached on a cheap engine cradle or you will bend the studs on the casters Smiler

C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by Hustler:
comp, who made that bellhousing? thought the only other one out there was the lakewood/quicktime piece.


Some one said they had one. I told him they did not exist but still decided to buy it. It was what he said. The source is unknown. I have a quick time too. It is a few lbs lighter then this one.
C comp2Member
The 400 has a big block bell housing.

The 400 is basically a Cleveland with an extra inch of deck and a big block bell housing pattern. You could source a rare FMX block with the small bellhousing but that isn't the smartest thing to do. FMX blocks are rare and if you have any trouble you have to source another rare FMX block.

400 block core charge was $50 as they are very common. Having a bell housing that fits the common block is golden.

Now Quicktime makes a big block bell housing but it is for the GT 40 with the ZF inverted. It has to be drilled for the Pantera.

I hate calling them "Big block" "small Block". That is really a Chevy term.
Views: 3,736
Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×