DeTomaso Internet Community
Forums Summary Page
Technical Support Forums
Engines and Engine Systems Forum
Dyno Day the First|
Go
![]() |
New
![]() |
Find
![]() |
Notify
![]() |
Tools
![]() |
Reply
![]() |
|
It's been a long time coming but we finally made some dyno pulls on the
351C test mule! The short block is a standard performance rebuild of a 351C with the following parts: Ford 351C block, 0.030" over (4.03" bore), 2 bolt mains, block did not require a re-bore as it had low miles since last being bored and was in good shape (no ridge), block was decked to clean up gasket surface Pioneer brass freeze plug set TRW L2379F forged flat top pistons with dual valve reliefs Ford 351C forged steel connecting rods (5.78") Ford 351C nodular iron crankshaft (3.5" stroke) Powerbond SFI balancer Ford Motorsport double roller timing chain (French Renold chain) Melling M84AHV mechanical high volume oil pump Ford Motorsport M-6005-A351 heavy duty chrome moly oil pump driveshaft Ford 351C passenger car front sump 5 quart oil pan Weiand 8209 aluminum 351C water pump MSD 8480 distributor (mechanical advance, large cap) Crane steel distributor gear (p/n 52971-1 for 351C with .531" shaft dia.) Cometic head gaskets (p/n C5871-040 for a 4.1" bore 351C/351M/400) FRPP M-6500-S58 "Early Block Hydraulic Roller Lifter Set". These are Crane p/n 36532-16 link bar retrofit roller lifters but were a little cheaper under the Ford Racing part number. Trend custom length push rods (for the taller roller lifters) Hastings moly rings (351C stock replacement) Clevite rod and main bearings (Std/Std) Crank treated to a light polishing Clearances are .0025" on rods and .0027" mains Fuel pump block off plate (dyno providing the fuel flow) The engine was assembled by Dave McLain of McLain's Automotive who is also providing the dyno services. The reusable Cometic head gaksets were provided by Alex Denysenko of MoneyMaker Racing. The block and iron heads and intakes were painted by Mike McDougal. For this first round of tests, the CHI 3V 225cc cylinder heads and matching Scott Cook dual plane intake were provided by Phillip de Cadenet and the CHI 3V single plane intake was provided by James Kayser. Short block was provided by me. Many more people have contributed parts or cold hard cash to this effort, so I'll have a lot more people to thank in the installments to follow. The camshaft is from Reed Cams in Georgia and is a custom hydraulic roller, specifically part number 535-TM280HR-284HR-107A, and is ground on a standard base circle steel core. In picking the cam specs, we were after a street performance grind that would have a horsepower peak near 6000 RPM with a best shift point of 6500 RPM, a wide mid-range torque band and some idle rump-rump. We also wanted a cam that would work well with all the heads to be tested which range from open chamber 2V iron to Ford Motorsport aluminum high ports to CHI 3V's. We chose a hydraulic roller to avoid the lobe and lifter wear problems associated with the low ZDDP content associated with current automotive oils. Also, I'm a lazy street guy and setting lash on a solid cam is a bit of a chore in a Pantera. The cam specs are: 228/232 degrees @ 0.050" lift (280/284 @ 0.006"), 0.588"/0.588" lift, 107 LSA, 68 degrees overlap, installed in the engine on a 104 intake centerline. The 68 degrees of overlap should put us in the right ballpark for a street performance cam in an engine of 351 cubic inches, considering our relatively large intake valves. I picked the lobe separation angle using David Vizard's cam selection guidelines. Theoretically, for this combination of bore, stroke, intake valve diameter, compression ratio and overlap, this LSA should give us the best area under the HP curve (not necessarily the best peak HP). For our valve diameters, Vizard's guidelines suggest very large lift (between 0.615" to 0.766") with the caveat that lift be limited to whatever is consistent with the longevity goals. Since our goal was a street engine, we went with a relatively modest lift of 0.588". Dave originally mocked the engine up using a borrowed set of Crane link bar lifters. I also wanted to test the Sherman Racing hydraulic roller lifters. Those lifters are modified OEM Ford lifters that others had provided others with a 400 RPM increase. However, it turned out we were unable to use the OEM Ford, Sherman Racing or Comp Cams link bar lifters in our particular block. Due to the way this block had been machined, at maximum lobe lift, the oil groove on the lifters is pushed up into the chamfer at the top of the lifter bores. If we tried to run it this way, it would dump oil pressure. There are three ways to fix this. One is to reduce the base circle of the cam so the lifter is lower in bore. The second is to use a lifter with a lower oil groove location and the third is to bush the lifter bores with taller sleeves. Dennis at Reed Cams said that, as a rule, irrespective of how much lift that a camshaft has, the lifters generally all stop in approximately the same location at the top, unless the base circle is deliberately reduced which might cause problems at the other end of the lifter bores. We decided to go with the Crane link bar lifters since they have their oil hole in a lower location on the lifter body. The first cylinder head and intake combination to be tested was the CHI 3V 225 cc heads coupled with a Scott Cook aluminum low rise dual plane. Both parts are imports from Australia and are very nice castings. Scott's intake manifold looks much like a Ford cast iron DOAE-9424-L dual plane but is cast in aluminum, slightly taller (around 10 mm or a bit more than 3/8") with smaller ports that are sized to fit either the CHI 3V heads or a 4V head with stuffed intake ports (raised floor). Compression was a little under 10:1 with the CHI heads. All pulls were made on 93 octane (midwest winter blend) pump gas and, unless otherwise noted, all pulls were made through mufflers. Also, the atmospheric conditions were measured and all dyno numbers corrected to standard day conditions. The headers for the first pulls were Hooker Competition units with 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries, 3" diameter by 8" long collector (probably part number HOK-6920HKR for 4V heads in a '67-'68 Mustang). Mufflers were Magnaflow 3" inlet and outlet. The dyno carb was a Holley 950HP (without air cleaner or inlet bellmouth) and we had an Innovate LM1 wide band O2 sensor keeping an eye on the air-to-fuel ratio. The engine had been previously run in for around an hour to seat the rings. It was run for a few minutes to warm the oil to operating temperature and the initial pulls made to set the total timing. Total timing settings from 32 to 38 degrees were tried. Unlike our previous dyno tests of a 10:1 compression 408 cubic inch Cleveland with closed chamber iron heads which made it's best power at only 32 degrees of total timing, this engine made it's best at 38. However, some trace detonation was detected by the knock sensor in the mid range. Rather than re-curving the distributor at that time, we opted to pull the total timing back to 33 to 34 degrees. We lost around 5 HP but gained some safety margin. Before the first recorded pulls, Dave guessed we'd make around 400 HP with the dual plane and pick up 20 HP with the single plane. Sure enough, the Cook dual plane intake/CHI 3V combo made right at 400 HP and 400 ft-lbs of torque. This dropped to 395 HP with the timing set back. Switching to the single plane CHI 3V intake manifold picked up 20 HP, just as Dave had predicted. The pulls were started at 3000 RPM and the HP peaks were near 6000 RPM. We ran both intakes to 6500 RPM and the horsepower stayed constant with no signs of dropping off. With the previous 408C which used the same dual valve springs, horsepower began dropping at 6000 RPM no matter whether we used the link bar Crane lifters or the OEM Ford lifters. Both of the initial test combos had nice flat torque curves that hung around 400 ft-lbs so I think we guessed right on our cams specs. The CHI single plane looked to have the edge from around 3000 RPM on up but the CHI is a rather tall intake that won't fit a lot of places the low rise Cook intake will. The Cook intake also has the edge in the sleeper department. Paint it with some dark Ford blue and no one would know it's not a cast iron Ford intake. Interestingly, the Cook dual plane did not have the distinct dual resonant peaks the dual planes on our previous 408C exhibited. We next tried a set of large tube Econo Altered drag headers which have 2 1/8" primaries of around 40 inches length and long 4" diameter collectors. These were run without mufflers. Our mild street 351C was just not enough engine to make use of these headers. They lost a whole bunch of torque and didn't catch up until 6000 RPM. We then tried a set of Pantera 4-into-1 headers (Hedman style with 2V port openings). These have rather short primaries (between 19" and 24") of 1 3/4" diameter and a tiny collector with 2 1/4" outlet. They lost maybe 15 ft-lbs but closed the gap some as RPM went up. Overall, I don't think they worked as well on this engine as the Euro GTS style Pantera headers had on the 408C. Those headers have a 2" primary with similar short primaries but have a tri-y type collector. It would be interesting to experiment with a better collector on the Hedman headers to see what sort of improvement can be made. The stock Pantera ANSA mufflers were just plain terrible. Just as the Euro GTS mufflers had on the 408C, the stock Pantera mufflers lost 50 ft-lbs and 50 HP to the 1 3/4" long tube Hookers with 3" Magnaflows. Anyone got a set of 1 7/8" primary long tubes to lend us? 1 7/8" might be better on this engine. We attempted to try a small 4180 Holley (CFM rating in the 585 range) to see how much HP we would lose with the reduced carb flow but we ran into a delay. The 4180 uses a different style bowl gasket which we didn't have on hand. As we hadn't had anything to eat or drink since breakfast, we decided it was a good time to knock off for the day. Dave noted that, given the number of pulls we made, it looked like the engine had pretty decent fuel economy. I also opined that the torque band should be a good match to the gearing of the Pantera. Dave said he'd pick up the 4180 gaskets and we'll give that a try later. Also, we plan on trying 1.65:1 roller rockers on the exhaust side before moving on to the next set of heads. We may also try the Parker Funnelweb on the CHI 3V heads if the port mismatch is reasonably close. Dave has the specifics of all the pulls recorded on his shop PC, along with the cylinder head and intake manifold flow bench results. When he sends those to me, I'll enter them into a spreadsheet and update this post with the relevant data. Dan Jones |
|||
|
|
George Pence Forums Administrator My 74 Pantera Photos |
Bravo Dan and Dave!
|
|||
|
|
|
Thanks for all your efforts Dan. This makes for very interesting reading. I look forward to the next instalment!
Johnny |
|||
|
|
|
Dan,
All good stuff. I think it won't be long before you're banging on the 500bhp door. I really looking forward to you guys testing my little 4180, a highly underated little carb. I'm sure it will be fine on a bone stock Cleveland offering reasonable perfomance down stairs and great mileage. Do we worry about that in a DT? Phil 79 Longchamp GTS 3061 |
|||
|
> Bravo Dan and Dave!
> > Thanks for all your efforts Dan. This makes for very interesting >reading. I look forward to the next instalment! > > All good stuff. Thanks guys. It's going to be fun. > I think it won't be long before you're banging on the 500bhp door. Dave's dyno is a unit that he built using a Land and Sea absorber, electronics and software. It's on wheels so it can be rolled in and out of the shop. We do the pulls under a car port type awning. The dyno is know to be 4 to 5% conservative when comparing the same engine on his dyno and the dynos used for the Engine Masters Competition, at Competition Cams and at Bill Mitchell's. Also, Dave doesn't use the automatic correction. Instead, Dave enters the atmospheric data manually from a weather station and no inertial correction factor is used. With these variables, dynos can vary by 10% very easily. If we take our best single plane pull from the first day (416 HP), add the 5 HP we lost from pulling back on the timing and then increase it by the known 5% correction factor, we'd end up with 442 HP. However, I'm not too concerned about the absolute numbers. It's more important to see what the relative changes are between different parts. > I really looking forward to you guys testing my little 4180, a highly > underated little carb. I'm sure it will be fine on a bone stock > Cleveland offering reasonable perfomance down stairs and great mileage. I think it would work very well on a stock 351C. I was hoping to test it on the relatively stock 351C in my white Pantera but didn't get a chance to try it before the snow started falling. It will be interesting to see what the dyno says. Given the HP difference between the dyno carb and the 4180, I should be able to predict where the carb will start to be a restriction. > Do we worry about that in a DT? Not too much, though I recently took a 900 mile trip in the Pantera. Fuel economy was right around 20 MPG, IIRC. Luckily, fuel cost had dropped to $1.37 per gallon. The recent drop in prices is very welcome as the dyno is a 200 mile round trip. Dan Jones |
||||
|
|
George Pence Forums Administrator My 74 Pantera Photos |
442 BHP at 6000 rpm from a 351 cubic inch motor is an excellent number.
cowboy from hell |
|||
|
Dan, are stepped tube headers on the "to do list"?
|
||||
|
> Dan, are stepped tube headers on the "to do list"?
Not at the moment but if anyone wants to lend me a set, I'd be happy to test them. Dan Jones |
||||
|
| Powered by Eve Community |
| Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|

