Saftey Wiring Ring Bolts

You can't be too safe! I speak from experience on this one. I bought #5761 in 1993 - after a couple thousand spirited miles one day I heard a load bang!! Did not know what it was until someone behind me signaled to pull over because I was spraying his windshield with gear oil! I was lucky, one bolt head flew thru the oil pan and 5 more were in the pan. The ring gear was still tight but I was seconds away from total ZF destruction. I installed new factory serrated ring gear bolts with Loctite and left it for 10 years until the major restoration. At that time I asked - "I wonder how the red Loctite is holding up after swimming in gear oil all those years?" Yeah, for peace of mind I changed the bolts, used Loctite and safety wired them. I don't think about the ZF at night anymore! Ed

quote:

when Loctite thread locker will do the same!

While I understand the ease of Loctite in comparison to safety wiring, to say they are the same just ain't so.

IF there was a magic fluid that was "the same" as safety wiring, I imagine we would cease to see racing machines, airplanes, etc using safety wiring.

Until that happens, I vote for safety wire.

But if the thought of a backed out bolt having its head snapped off only to see it become wedged in a spinning gear, causing your ZF case to crack, along with whatever else happens when such catastrophe strikes, doesn't put financial fear into your thought process, then go right ahead.

Larry

I have seen the heads snap off of loose ring gear bolts and it can ruin a good mood. Better safety wire those bolts.

OK fella's,
This is the kind of info I am looking for:

I talked with a well renouned Pantera Shop and he said the red locktite would work, that's 272, it does not back out.

He also said that he basically uses the stock bolts and drill's them if you go that route

These bolt's in case you never knew or don't have measuring tool's are;

M10 x 1.0 x 22mm/.875"L 10ea

The closest I find are in the ARP catalogue but are .050" shorter,


http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

ARP

High Performance series is rated at
180,000 psi, and the premium grade Pro
Series, originally developed for NASCAR
Winston Cup competition, has a 200,000
psi rating.

ROVER

K Series (8 pcs.) .826 M10 x 1.0 206-2803


Larry, your's appear to be drilled stock Items & did you loctite them also?

Ed, do you remember any being loose when you pulled them that were loctited only?

I'm leaning towards the ARP if I replace these.


Mark

quote:

Originally posted by SICK CAT:
OK fella's,
This is the kind of info I am looking for:

I talked with a well renouned Pantera Shop and he said the red locktite would work, that's 272, it does not back out.

He also said that he basically uses the stock bolts and drill's them if you go that route

These bolt's in case you never knew or don't have measuring tool's are;

M10 x 1.0 x 22mm/.388" x .875"L,15mm Hex 10ea

The closest I find are in the ARP catalogue but are .050" shorter,


http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

ARP

High Performance series is rated at
180,000 psi, and the premium grade Pro
Series, originally developed for NASCAR
Winston Cup competition, has a 200,000
psi rating.

ROVER

K Series (8 pcs.) .826 M10 x 1.0 206-2803


Larry, your's appear to be drilled stock Items & did you loctite them also?

Ed, do you remember any being loose when you pulled them that were loctited only?

I'm leaning towards the ARP if I replace these.


Mark

I bought my lock wire kit from Hall Pantera, wasn't very expensive and came with all gaskets as well as bolts and wire.
I still haven't fitted it yet though.

quote:

Larry, your's appear to be drilled stock Items & did you loctite them also?

Yes, I have been told they are stock. Wiring was done by Quella for previous owner. Loctite??

Larry

Safety Wire, Saftey Wire, Safety Wire. Red Loctite and torqued. (Thanx to GT 40 Joe)

I bought my bolts and wire from Precision Proformance.


Dave # 3463

Quella sells a drilled ARP set that is correct length. Stocker on left, ARP on right.

Kelly

When I went to replace my factory bolts, the head snapped off the first bolt. Looking at it you could see there was just a sliver of metal holding the bolt head to the shank. The other 9 bolts were loose.

Dennis Quella recommends lock wire and red high temp LocTite. His ARP bolts are special made. You won't find them in ARP's catalog.

Was able to buy the bolts direct today for about $50.00 @ ARP, gave me the kit plus 2 loose,the application is for a flywheel, the flywheel and differential are both sheer loads.
I will drill the bolts myself & get some safety wire from the parts store or McMaster Carr

Here's what I found;
Pantera Parts Connection, ARP drilled for safety wire $285.00

Precision Performance, $110.00

Wilkerson, drilled stock bolts approx $85.00

Pantera International: Go to RBT

RBT: Did not return call

Hall Pantera, They have there's made? $65.00 with gasket & wire, Probably best price but make and strength unknown.

Drill my own, Free!

ARP: 200,000 psi rating, I drill & safety wire, $50.00 to $60.00 shipped.

I'll write this post when they show up to let all know how it went.


Mark

Bolts showed up today! $51.44 tax & shipping!
ARP next to stock bolt, better fit!

Back side

Side by side, Better fit I think

I'll drill them tomorrow, again the part #'s are 8ea 206-2803 for ROVER "K" SERIES FLYHEELS,
2ea M12AM.826-1F / M10 X 1.0 12PT FLYWHEEL BOLTS, ALSO PICKED UP SOME STAINLESS STEEL SAFETY WIRE FROM McMASTER CARR .041" FOR AROUND $7.00

In case you need to know there is a little to safety wiring, I'll use a 1/16" bit and chamfer the edges of the holes with a 60* tool bit, this keeps the wire from being cut on the sharp edges

Hey Mark,

Let us know how the drilling of those ARP bolts goes. They're tough stuff.

Kelly

This link may be of some use to "first timers",
like me.
www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

John

Drilled holes easy on a Mill,all went well till the last one, were I broke the drill in the hole breaking threw to the other side. It gave me fits for about an hour, got it out and all is well. Had installed and marked each bolt prior to drilling to get the best location of wire hole as possible, all but one were where I wanted them. Don't think I would attempt this without a mill.
Assembled Ring carrier and axle shafts,

272 Locktite, torqued to 75ftlbs & safety wired.

Back side.

Nice job! Whats happening with the new motor?

Hello Mark,

Its in the machine shop waiting it's turn,
Still building the 377 cid, decided to wait a season due to polishing of parts, machining of manifold, etc. My favorite show is coming up soon in May 2,3 & 4. http://www.showandgo.us/ in Riverside so I am racing the clock to get the Pantera back together.


Mark

Welp, it's back in the car and working flawless!
Had one set back were the larger shims under the back cover slip'd down during assembly, would not shift right and was the reason the pinion was hard to turn. 1ea .040" and 2ea .006"
these were damaged so I machined 1ea .052" to fit snug in the cap and reassembled. Pantera is wiped down & ready for Riverside (';') May 2,3 & 4. .
http://www.showandgo.us/
Still do not think the safety wire is nessasary, a broken head bolt slinging around on the end of a piece of wire does not sound like a fix, the loctite & safety wire is only for back out prevention, kind of redundent.
Don't hurt much so oh well!

Be advised that RBT will only tourqe a ring gear bolt one time. Meaning that they are not to be reused.

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Catalog/Catalog.html

This is the web site to ARP.
If you wondered which mystery bolt that the vendors use from ARP I'll bet it is the one application for the fly wheel on a Ford 4.6/5.4
It's oversized on the head and a little more than an 1/8" longer than the one's I used, the mystery to the "special bolts" is they had a machine shop drill them.
ARP#254-2801, 1" long instead of the one's I used @ .875" long


Best I can do for you guy's.

Mark

Look at this bolt head with all sides drilled? from Paramount. That would have to weaken the head? It Is .878 or so... What about the washers that came with the kit? I did not see them on your ring? If I use them they will efectifly shorten my ... your bolts came through just right to the end of the threads.... Thanks Mark! Bill 1362

Hi Bill,
Nice looking bolt, the washer is heavy and I would guess would be to use it so as not to marr the face of a part with a machined spot face. you would have to look at the stack up height of the bolthead and washer because I had to squeeze the ring gear out with the carrier, that extra bit may result in the carrier not being able to go back.
The length could be a problem were as the ARP bolts are flanged on the bolt adding to the strength,measure your bolts from the end to the washer and it should be 7/8" to 1 " otherwise it's to short or long.
Do they have a tensile strength rating and is it comparable, this is most important.
Also to a point the extra cross drilling could weaken the bolt, thats a lot of meat in the center were the holes intersect removed.

Mark

Is there enough room to use a thicker head/washer assembly? It's pretty tight there. What clearances need to be provided for flexing?
I'm not so sure that I want the wire in there? If it moves around IT will cause a disaster?

I think I like the loctite idea alot better.

Excellent job on the safety wiring. Its nice to see it done right.

Blaine

I believe the safety wire is to prevent the bolt from starting to move.
this way the bolt's clamp effoect is not lost.
The wire itself has no major strength, it is not it's job to hold the bolt. bit like a lock washer.
Oh the holes in the head of the bolt will still have sufficient head strength.

quote:

I believe the safety wire is to prevent the bolt from starting to move.
this way the bolt's clamp effoect is not lost.
The wire itself has no major strength, it is not it's job to hold the bolt. bit like a lock washer.

Actually the job of the wire is to stop the bolt from completely loosening. It is almost impossible to get the wire tight enough to keep the bolt from starting to back out.
I was trained to lockwire (Navy Term) If I remember correctly it is MIL SPEC STD-793. Did everything from .020"- .125" wire sizes. Metals were NiCu, NiCuFe, and rarely some stainless steel, the Navy doesnt consider stainless steel as corrosion resistant.
Mark you did do a textbook application of your wiring job. Very nice work. Seeing a right and left hand twist brings back alot of memories!!
Jeff

Thanks Fellas for the kind word's,
Pantera Doug, I think any extra stackup height on the bolthead & washer from the stock bolts would prevent you from reassembling/installing the carrier/ring gear as it is a very tight fit, infact you must be very careful as not to damage another part, unless you have the input shaft removed.

Thanks Blaine.

JeffS,
I to am a Vetran of a little tye wiring, I spent 27yrs as a Heavy Industry Machinist in the Electric Utility's, One of the thing's we repaired was jet engines straped to electric Generator's for peak Electric load demand.
Endless days of wiring. We used what you used and Inconel, Monel & various stainless steels.
Your right as stainless is not what most folks think, certain enviorments like to eat it,salt,corrosives, clorine.
It is very tough outside of this and in this application I think a step better than steels, cost was ok too.
I dig the fact that there are so many enthusiast, from so many walks of life that can have postive, constructive input to help each other make a great vehical better,

Thanks again, Mark

Normally a surgeon will not discuss how tight or loose a catgut stitch on an artery bypass should be.

Since I am the patient here and am doing my own surgery I only get one shot at it.

Nowhere else in this Universe could I possibly find this kind of information shared.

I personally thank everyone here for that opportunity. Incidentally, don't let me operate on you, ok?

quote:

We used what you used and Inconel, Monel & various stainless steels.

NiCuFe= Inconel, NiCu= Nickel Copper, some folks I have seen call it Monels. I love Inconels wish I could afford some thin wall tubing made of it. Would make some great headers and exhaust!!

quote:

Endless days of wiring

Amen to that. I still have nightmares from some of the fastners I have had to wire up.
Jeff

Is is possible to change and wire the ring gear while the zf is in the car?

quote:

Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
Is is possible to change and wire the ring gear while the zf is in the car?

No you can't even get the bottom cover off the ZF. The frame rails prevent the long cross bolts from coming out.