10Qt pan oil volume

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:... so I just thought something is off and the proper way was to put the 9.5 in and mark it....

I am just thinking here...BUT;

wouldn't the critical oil level be determined by setting the level some distance below the "crank circle". I would think this would be with respect to the side of the block where the filler tube is pressed in. (I thought I had a drawing showing that depth for a standard stroked 351C, but haven't been able to locate now)

If your Pantera oil dipstick is the proper length, there was a TSB on that issue, that is all you need to properly fill your oilpan.

It matters not if that oilpan is stock, stock modified, ten quart or made out of fairy dust.

All pans are properly filled when the oil is at the proper mark on the stock dipstick.

The correct oil fill is designed to be at a low enough level where the crankshaft is not acting like a kitchen mixer and whipping air into the oil. Overfill and you enter the whipped-oil zone.

That proper relationship between the crank and the dipstick fill mark does not change when you change the oilpan.

This used to confuse me, too, so don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

But it really is that simple.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:...
Larry

you had a post with more info
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...50045562/m/621109365

from your latter research is this still correct I have found other post that differ

I converted your write up to a drawing

I would like if some one has the measurement from the block where the tube fits to the bearing center line AND the crank circle diameter (or the radius of windage tray)

Joe,

I have a regular and Pantera 351C dipstick. Photos follow.

They do not show the ...exact... same dimensions, but they are quite close to my earlier dimensions and thus your new drawing.

I fully believe, as noted earlier, that if your dipstick is correct (later correct dipsticks had a yellow handle to show the update, and the dealers were supposed to paint the handle yellow when they performed the TSB modification) the full and low dipstick lines are certainly better than pouring in a known amount of oil and remarking the dipstick (as I believe Jan may have done).

Not sure what the dimensions you asked for would illustrate. Perhaps just curiosity as to what the Ford engineers felt was proper level in relation to the crank?

Larry

Pantera

I had never thought about the oil LEVEL in the sump. So the obvious is not to have the level in the rotation.

as for the block dimensions, I wanted to see how much below the level is from the crank. I just look at a 9 quart pan and sort of surprised at the oil is only 4" deep.

I've got a short block on a stand - no oil pan - in one of my sheds. I'll stick a tube and dipstick in it and then we'll know.

I'll take a photo tomorrow.

Stay tuned.

Larry

And for a bit of humor related to this thread and oil levels.......

MANY years ago a sweet little old lady co-worker asked if I could come to her home to look at her car that wouldn't start. She had earlier noted it was leaking oil, and I had just offhandedly remarked that she could easily just add oil as needed and gave her a short tutorial.

So, I get to her home and first want to see her issues. "won't start" is not very descriptive

Will it crank? Yes. Okay, turn the key.........

So there I am, under the open hood and she cranks it. I don't recall why, but I had the oil fill cap removed from the valve cover.

And the oil comes splashing out the valve cover hole!!

She had just routinely added oil, no check of the existing oil level, to the point the poor battery couldn't rotate the crank fast enough, in an oilpan fully filled (and who knows how much higher) with oil, for it to start.

I think I drained 5-6 quarts out of that car, and all was good.

sometimes.........

Larry

My stick is 38" as measured shown in the diagram above. If that is the correct length, I still get way above the full line when I put in 9.5qt. So I figured just mark it there and be done with it for my full line. But now with another oil change coming up, I was thinking maybe some remains in the pan and therefore putting in 9.5 would actually be overfill. I have a Fontana block, so not sure if that may be throwing off some measurements. But if all the oil does exit the pan on an oil & filter change, I will just use my own 9.5qt mark on the stick. I am just not sure if all oil does exit.

Jan,

The Fontana block may change things.

If it positions the dipstick tube entry point to the block higher or lower (where it enters the block relative to the crankshaft centerline) to the tube entry point on the ford Cleveland block, adjustments will need to be made.

If the Fontana entry point is higher, filling to your dipstick's full reading would actually be overfilling. Lower would be underfilled.

Your 38" dipstick is a good thing and will give you the proper oil level, as long as no one has shortened the tube for some obscure reason or you have an aftermarket tube not made to the proper dimensions.

Do you have a photo of the front of the Fontana that shows where the dipstick tube enters the block?

Larry

No, sorry I don't have a photo of the front. But do you think all oil exits an oil pan with baffles on an oil change or does some remain in the pan?

Don't truly know but would be surprised if more than 4 ounces remained after draining hot oil with the car at the proper tilt.

Don't think I've ever read anything answering that question.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
If your Pantera oil dipstick is the proper length, there was a TSB on that issue, that is all you need to properly fill your oilpan.

It matters not if that oilpan is stock, stock modified, ten quart or made out of fairy dust.

All pans are properly filled when the oil is at the proper mark on the stock dipstick.

The correct oil fill is designed to be at a low enough level where the crankshaft is not acting like a kitchen mixer and whipping air into the oil. Overfill and you enter the whipped-oil zone.

That proper relationship between the crank and the dipstick fill mark does not change when you change the oilpan.

This used to confuse me, too, so don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

But it really is that simple.

Larry

Kimosabe, the Lone Ranger say, ask Tonto! Tonto know!

Tonto say 9 quart in pan. Oil, not firewater!

Yeah I find its always beneficial to gain input from Tonto & other experts. I find that my logic & common sense isn't always correct, but I would think all significant levels of oil should exit a pan once you drain it and upon filling a 10qt pan about 9 - 9.5 should be the right level. Its just so odd to me that I put in 9qt and the level shows so high. I checked my prior notes and I even did a photo below on an oil change back in 2013 after filling and running the car & letting all settle. I just don't think it would be logical for the builder to put in a 10qt pan that for some reason only really needs about 5qt to show full on the stick. That's why I am thinking my mark shown on the photo is really showing the correct level. I just don't want to be like the poor woman above and overfill by 5qt or so by just putting in 9 - 9.5qt. Maybe I will just take the black 5S to Tommy Hodges and say "WTF", because I think he was involved with some building of that car, and becides I need other things done such as AC & trans mounts. Let him deal with that one and I will move onto changing the oil in my other cars.

Ha ha just went to my red 5S that also has a Fontana block and my prior oil change notes show that same exact fill level on the stick with a 9qt oil change. Only thing I can think is that it is something with the Fontana engine build, tube length or whatever is causing 9qt to be at that level on the stick.

ITSWIKDStickAnd9QT by JanDaMan, on Flickr

AVIAID's response to that is the pan rating is "approximate".
I'm pretty sure that if you are very close to the line, either way, you are ok.

There are no pockets in either the stock pan or the AVIAID that will retain oil. I presume that Armondo's is the same as the AVIAID's?

The real effort of changing the oil would be that if you had an additional oil cooler. There you have the likeliness of oil left in the hoses and the cooler itself.

If you need to drain as close to 100% of the oil as possible then you need to install an in line petcock near the cooler and at the lowest point in the system.

Internally the engine componets will continue to drip oil for a while. Maybe as much as 48 hours or so.

Many people will just leave the pan to drain for an extended period, like overnight.

That really isn't necessary though unless you need to remove a know contaminant, then you would need to drain, fill, run the engine for a few minutes, then drain again.

This comes from Tonto, Kemosabe. Tonto know! "Hi-o-silver and away!"

Mine is just a little below your's. Bad light today, sorry. You can make out the W though?

9 qts in the pan. Raises a good question though Jan. I don't know why it is so much above the safe line at all.

I need to go smoke piece pipe with Tonto for clarification?

Great to see someone else at the W on the stick too. Taking a beer break after getting the oil out of the red 5S Fontana car. But to get a rough idea of what is coming out compared to going in, I took a tip from Breaking Bad weighing money and I weighed the oil (9qts in the bottles in a box weighed 20 lb and there was 20 lb that came out into the plastic oil container). So ballpark wise, it seems all the oil is coming out like you said. When filling with oil I recall someone said to just put in 8 at first, then run the car a minute or so and then add the last quart. Could be it was Tonto recommendation, so I always have done that.

Tonto mumble sometimes. Speak strage 'injun speak'. Call Ranger stupid. Has big Bowie knife. Can't ask him many questions. Complains feet hurt because of crappie moccasins. Go figure?

So here's an alternative thought; what's the magic around squeezing in 9 quarts?

Has anyone looked at where the dipstick markings are in relation to the crank with the pan off? Typically the full marking is at a point that keeps the crank/rods from being immersed in an oil bath. The windage tray does a similar job to prevent splash and oil frothing/foaming so I'd approach it from that angle rather than a fixed volume that is way up the dipstick.

Julian

quote:

Has anyone looked at where the dipstick markings are in relation to the crank with the pan off?

You mean like this?

Dumb end of the tape is roughly at crank centerline. Full level of oil is a little over 5 1/2 inches below the crank centerline.

I agree with the idea that the oil level is supposed to be kept low enough to keep the engine from spinning in the oil. Correct.

In re-examing my oil level, mine is at the top line of the safe marking.

Exactly what is in my pan is difficult to ascertain.

I have a remote oil cooler, about 10 feet of -10 hose and a dual remote oil filter. I "think" of it as a 12 quart system.

Deduct that and whatever is left over is in the pan.

WHATEVER the actual number is, the dip stick level should be the determining factor BUT, read this.

The procedure for determining the capacity of the pan at this point on a running engine, 1)leave the filter in place since it is already filled with oil 2)fill the pan with oil until it is somewhere in the "safe" zone. Whatever that quantity is, that's what the pan holds.

If I'm not mistaken, I think that pan was also referred to as an 8 quart pan also? I did talk to AVIAID and they were a little vague on being pinned down to exactly what the pan would hold.

http://www.fordification.com/tech/dipstick.htm



What Ford did with the 428CJ oiling issues was to increase the amount of oil originally specified for the 428 by two quarts and to make a new dipstick to indicate that the extra two quarts, 6 quarts total, was correct for that engine.

Now the sidebar on this subject is an interesting one. That being that there is only ONE oil pan that Ford made for the 1958 352 through the 1973 390 in cars. Trucks is another subject.

That INCLUDES all of the versions of the 427, the 406, the 410, etc.

They never noticed warranty claims for oil starvation UNTIL they built the 68 Cobra Jet 428's!

However, the solution of adding two extra quarts to the one and only FE oil pan guaranteed that the crankshaft was now partially submerged in crankcase oil.

What did they do to fix this? They added a single simple "wind age tray" (IF you could call it that) to the oil pan assembly simply by sandwiching it between the bottom of the block and the pan, double gasketing it and using longer bolts for the pan. CHEAPO!

So really the implication here is that partially submerging the crankshaft does not hurt the durability or the operation of the internal reciprocating assembly.

MAYBE it is as Shakespeare said, "Much to do about nothing"?

Yada, yada, yada...what did he know about engines. Sure.

Tonto too.

Now Yancy Derringer's body guard, Pahoo-ka-ta-wah maybe? He looks smart. Great with a scatter gun too.

I wouldn't know for sure? I think he was Chockta or Pawnee. I can't tell the difference. They told me I'm Apache. What do I know? I'm no Sherlock Clouseau after all.

Thanks for all the tips, but that's what I get buying cars already modified. Who knows where the level should be or how much to really put in the pan other than as suggested by Julian and take the pan off & take a look see. On my red 5S with Fontana engine I have good records on that and 9qt was put in each time on all prior oil changes with the prior owner. Even then, who knows, but at least its something historically.

This time I put in 8.5 and measured then took it to the usual historical 9. Even then as shown in the photos below, one side of the stick shows a patch in the middle (but I assume that empty mark on the middle of the stick is where it is rubbing on the inside of the tube when I am drawing it out). WTF I need a drink.


9Qt by JanDaMan, on Flickr
9Qt by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Refreshments by JanDaMan, on Flickr

I read that pan as overfull. I don't think you need to look inside at all. I'm not familiar with the Fontana block.
Perhaps it has a different skirt length than a Ford block does?

I'm sure there is someone here that knows them and can comment on that.

Just get a clean oil catch pan, drain it all out and put it back in a quart at a time until you get to the safe zone.

I think you are a quart over BUT one of the things we would tell people who were doing their first high speed event on a race track was to put an extra quart in the pan.

It couldn't hurt but it could save your engine.

You want to worry about oil in the pan? I had severe paranoia the first time I was on a banked track. What do you do to keep the oil near the sump when you are at about 30 degrees from flat? Maybe more?

I forget. The blood in my head was going sideways.

Then Bob Bonduraunt passed me running WAY THE F up on the banks against the rail flat out in a 289 Cobra and I felt like a wussy!

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil. Talk about a freaky disorienting occurrence?

Trust me on this...you will never forget that!

Good thing they make adult Depends is all I can say. I won't drive anywhere without 'em! Don't want to stain the leather on the seats!

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:...Full level of oil is a little over 5 1/2 inches below the crank centerline.

this is interesting!

did you also measure how far below center line the counter weights (or windage tray) would be?

for the adaiavin 9 qt pan shown, that would only have 2 1/2 inches of oil! that would show full with only 5 1/2 qts.

one really needs to know how close to the crank the oil level can be. I would THINK that desired level would also depend on how the engine is used since the "level" will squew based upon accelerations .

JFB's post brings to mind another point; are you guys checking oil with the engine running or off?

In running engine there's a lot of oil distributed throughout the engine, how much depends on a number of factors like drain back rate, hydraulic lifters etc.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:
JFB's post brings to mind another point; are you guys checking oil with the engine running or off?

Julian

Off. Running it would drop two inches on the dipstick.

quote:

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil.

Does spinning in their own coolant count? I have done that! Also cost me $200 in kitty litter to cleanup the coolant left on the track. They don't like it when you leave a trail back to the pits. They just follow the line to see who has to pay!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:

quote:

I will say in my own defense though that I am one of the few that I know of that HAS, as in previously, ancient history, spun in their own oil.

Does spinning in their own coolant count? I have done that! Also cost me $200 in kitty litter to cleanup the coolant left on the track. They don't like it when you leave a trail back to the pits. They just follow the line to see who has to pay!!!

[/QUOTE]
for the adaiavin 9 qt pan shown, that would only have 2 1/2 inches of oil! that would show full with only 5 1/2 qts.
QUOTE]

Yes about 5.5 qt would most likely put me right at the full level mark on the stick. But that sure seems like a small amount in such a huge pan just visually looking at it compared to a stock pan. Never knew an oil change could be so complex.

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:...Never knew an oil change could be so complex.

ME NEITHER! I have googled and cannot find anywhere the level of oil in the sump is given as a distance from the crank.

1. If it is above the windage tray is bad (foaming)
2. if it is JUST below the tray, that is ok for level road, but accel or braking and one end of the pan will have oil above (bad)
3. just don't know the "Goldie Loks" level! to me it appears it would vary with the engine use.

the dipstick marked 5 1/2" and thus only needs 5.5 quarts to indicate full with a 9 qt pan...just think it would only be 3qts (or less) with a stock pan.

I for one am still unsure where the oil level should be. I guess this is one of those super secret bits of info.

Even dry sump systems have their limitations. In most cases though in order to make them run dry from G-forces likely the driver would die from excessive force, or at least black out momentarily so they would be unconscious when the car crashed.

The point of the wet sump performance pans like the AVIAID is to keep enough oil near the pickup to not run dry.

That is done by oil control devices and increasing the reservoir available.

That is a full competition pan with a history of being the best wet sump available going back 40 years. You do not need to over fill it.

Worry about other issues.

If you drive on public streets in a manor in which you have overcome these design considerations then I would say that in my perspective for public safety your driving privileges should be restricted?

YOU ANIMAL!

Hi

Reading this thread is of interest to me as my stock cleveland block with 10 qrt oil pan over reads. I have filled it with approx 8 ltrs (8 qrts) yet it still over reads.

Following the info in this thread I went out and measured my dipstick, its 38 5/8", where there different length dipsticks supplied, if so why?

If I modify my dipstick to 38" by shortening at the top end as suggested this should give me the correct level reading but is this the right thing to do.

cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Horace Cope:
Hi

Reading this thread is of interest to me as my stock cleveland block with 10 qrt oil pan over reads. I have filled it with approx 8 ltrs (8 qrts) yet it still over reads.

Following the info in this thread I went out and measured my dipstick, its 38 5/8", where there different length dipsticks supplied, if so why?

If I modify my dipstick to 38" by shortening at the top end as suggested this should give me the correct level reading but is this the right thing to do.

cheers

It would put 5/8" more in the pan. What that measures out to in specific quantity is unknown to me.

PROBABLY the people to ask about the importance of this is AVIAID themselves? Let them tell you how important that is. Our discussion here is just speculation on supposition.

However if you think about it, they used the dipstick level as the determination, i.e., they left that up to Ford.

In theory, they are the ones with best data available.

Horace, there have been several problems with the 'simple' steel Pantera dipstick & pan over the years. The stock 351-C dipstick was originally quite short- having been meant for a front-engine Fairlane or Galaxie. So as-installed in a Pantera, one had to open the rear trunk, remove the engine screen, grope around down in front of the (hot?) engine for the invisible stick, or with an assistant, remove the bulkhead upholstery & engine access cover and finally pull the stick out for a reading. Returning the stick to the invisible guide tube in the block was even more fun, even with help.

So Ford found owners were not checking oil and engine returns for running with no or low oil were climbing by early '72, Ford modified the OEM stick for Panteras by cutting it in two and brazing a section of spring wire in the length. Then they made a new top section guide tube that bolted on to one of the rocker cover bolts. A TSB (Bulletin 1 Article 4, May 1972) was issued to dealers describing the mod.

The modded-stock Pantera dipstick was done in bulk by an unknown contractor (cheaply & in a hurry), and some were done to the wrong length, then put in Ford boxes for sale. Enough were done wrong to warrant a second TSB (Bulletin 5 Article 34, March 1973) warning Pantera dealers of the problems and giving an illustration of an exact length and how & where to measure it (38" stop-thimble-to-tip, NOT the overall length from outside the looped handle to tip).

In addition, some possibly poorly-done braze-joints cracked over the years and owners who noticed it repaired them to the wrong length- usually too short. I heard of one stick in the S.F Bay Area that was so short, it overfilled the crankcase in a rebuilt motor by 6 qts in a STOCK pan! Oil came out of every seal & gasket in the poor motor while running.... Welding the stick also didn't work because the hard spring steel cracks from weld-heat stress.

Finally, a few owners on both sides of the Atlantic, thinking "this is an Italian-made car, the oil volume must be in liters", used the correct dipstick to add 5 LITERS of oil. This only overfilled the crankcases by 1/4 qt or so (1 liter = 1.056 qt)- not enough to cause damage.

Mike Cook, a Bonneville racer that once worked for Gary Hall, found by using plexiglas rocker covers that at high rpms, 3 of the 5 available quarts of oil in a stock pan were being pumped up into the rocker covers and because the oil drainback passages in stock heads were small & tended to plug up, that left only 2 qts to fill the block oil passages & filter, at a time when the engine was under max load stress. Again, bearing starvation and damaged engines resulted. So running at least 8 qts of oil in a fully baffled pan (for cornering control) is simply good insurance.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:....So running at least 8 qts of oil in a fully baffled pan (for cornering control) is simply good insurance.

Is that a "stock (5 qt)" pan?

would you have the diminsions of the pan?

sort of a Catch 22...over fill the pan so the pickup will stay covered during cornoring, braking and accelerating, but then the oil level will slosh into the crank, giving frothy oil and loss of pressure

I've been an owner for a while ; so, I'll add my dime. I've tested the Aviad pan that I own many times. Out of the engine and sitting on a flat surface, I could put 10 quarts in my pan before it broached the windage tray which measures 4.25" above the pan floor. There are 4" between the windage tray and the bolt flange. My notes also show 6 qts to the baffle. (I hypothesize that was to the top of the baffles). I run 12 quarts due to having an oil filter, oil cooler and an Accusump. Even so, I profess that anyone with an Aviad pan can safely run 10 quarts. With the engine operating, there are probably two quarts circulating - at least.

After draining the oil, I add ten quarts and mark my dip stick with the edge of a file at that level.

Not even sure what 10 qt pan I have, but the thing looks huge. I think I recall someone saying it was a special Hall job, car built by Fat Jack. I will have to dig out my records and see if there is info, but I know in prior oil changes 9 qt has always been used. I suppose I will stay with my 9 qt even though it shows so high on the stick. The car has run excellent for years with that level & starts freely with no lag like it is drowning in oil. If I ever have to take the pan off, I suppose I will know more.

Red 5S Oil Pan by JanDaMan, on Flickr
Red 5S Oil Pan by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Well looking at her, those look more like a pair of 12 quarts to me. They gotta' slosh around plenty in the turns?

Lots of dimples in the bottom I noticed.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Well looking at her, those look more like a pair of 12 quarts to me. They gotta' slosh around plenty in the turns?

Lots of dimples in the bottom I noticed.

Yeah dimply pimply teenager pan. Its the same pan in my black 5S with Fontana engine and records on that build shows 10Qt. But it does appear pretty big maybe 12, and even so I still get that big over fill shown on the stick with 9 qt WTF. Maybe an extra quart of martini in me will fix it.