Sam I think your right on target. Oftem poeple say "it's what the professionals do". Often the profesionals do so because of time and money which is why I am taking the time to fix things the "professionals" did.
Ron the I have been playing with the fiberglass bondo. You can get it at autozone. I layed up some molds with it. Cool stuff!
When I was stitch welding yesterday, I was going back and forth between the dremel and welder. I didn't even bother putting on my mask. I just pointed the wand and closed my eyes. Today my face is sun tan!
A friend of mine brought me a nice door and asked me if I could tig weld a tiny patch on the front corner.Before I started I decided to remove all the paint to make sure there was no other damage I found none except for a light srape in the centre.Anyhow the previous body shop decided to just fill with bondo rather than hammer and dolly out the scrape.When I removed the bondo the steel was full of rust only where the filler was applied.I believe fillers trap moisture if applied directly to steel and this door proved me right.I agree you have better adhesion on steel but for long term I would rather apply to epoxy Sam
I did bodywork professionally for a few years, and we preferred to apply filler over self etching primer, as it bites into the steel and neutralizes the metal surface. We also tried to apply it over 36 to 80 grit scratches vs smooth metal, it will hold better. Also try not to build more than 1/8 th of an inch is also preferred.
Most, or probably all, filler manufacturers design and recommend them to be used over clean and prepped (sanded with coarse 36-grit), rust-free (sandblasted), dry (free from moisture), bare metal. They will stick to epoxy primers with mechanical adhesion. Body fillers do not chemically bond with epoxies. If you put filler over epoxy primer, it has to be fully cured, with no solvents such as thinner or reducer left in the primer, and still should be sanded with a coarse grit and cleaned. In other words, using epoxy primer under filler is a wasted step that may or may not cause adhesion problems later on.
This is posted by a Bodyman, Manufacturers Rep, Sales Rep.
I agree ..
This is posted by a Bodyman, Manufacturers Rep, Sales Rep.
I agree ..
I'm just an amateur but I have restored several rusted mid 50's American cars. I took a local community college auto body course part time a few years back. A PPG rep gave a seminar and said to apply epoxy primer over a 36 - 80 grit rough bare metal surface and apply the filler over the epoxy primer. All fillers use a chemical reaction to cure which creates heat. The heat creates and traps moisture from the humidity. Of course Houston is an extremely high humidity area. Like thewop I've found rust under bondo that was applied directly to bare metal. Bondo and regular primers are not moisture proof. They are like a sponge and hold water. Epoxy primers are moisture proof. I also use a product called All Metal as a filler instead of bondo. It's moisture proof and sticks like stink on s---. If you get bondo on your hands, it washes off with soap and water. If you get All Metal on your hands its there for a couple days. Even lacquer thinner won't completely remove it. I do all the body work and then apply epoxy primer over the entire car before using a primer filler and wet sanding. If you apply regular primer over bare metal and then wet sand, you've put moisture on the metal surface. All Metal does have a shelf life after it's opened. It's also more expensive and about 5 times and more difficult to use. Professional body men don't like it since they make their money on time and production. I've also had good results with Gorilla Hair for certain repairs. There's a lot of time and skill to doing auto body repair correctly which is why quality auto body restoration is so expensive.
Dan
Dan
That your opinion ... but the manufacturers recommendations all say apply it over bare metal. I'm not sure which filler your using that washes off with soap and water ???
Up here in NY where there is extreme 100 degree days and -5 degree days I would say would be the best test. I have never had Filler Crack unless the metal seem was not welded properly and never had rust form under filler.
I have to say if we are talking about professional body work or home repairs. Body shops are heated and temperature controled to some degree. The metal was preped with metal conditioner and sanded some where between 36 and 120 grit, apply bondo over the most stable base .. is metal ?
If we are talking home repairs ?? there is a variety of things like not preped metal, filler mixed wrong, porrly welded seem, brazed seems,...
And I dont use epoxy or etching primer. I use red oxide primer over bare metal, then fill and sand primer then paint.
we can go one for days ... to each is own.
Ron
Up here in NY where there is extreme 100 degree days and -5 degree days I would say would be the best test. I have never had Filler Crack unless the metal seem was not welded properly and never had rust form under filler.
I have to say if we are talking about professional body work or home repairs. Body shops are heated and temperature controled to some degree. The metal was preped with metal conditioner and sanded some where between 36 and 120 grit, apply bondo over the most stable base .. is metal ?
If we are talking home repairs ?? there is a variety of things like not preped metal, filler mixed wrong, porrly welded seem, brazed seems,...
And I dont use epoxy or etching primer. I use red oxide primer over bare metal, then fill and sand primer then paint.
we can go one for days ... to each is own.
Ron
Here are some more photos. If you look the front patch was not only on top of the metal but the front flair was on top of it. It is hard to see the impact from these photos but before this thing would have needed close to a 1/4" of filler just to smooth the transition. After the patche and flair was relieved into the fender it will need very little filler at all to smooth.
Nice work Are you able to remove the metal underneith the patch so that you could get a true butt joint?
Well it is a true butt joint but I don't think I will remove the extra metal for two reasons. I thought about it for a while. I think the extra metal may give additional suport in the corner and it is well attatched. Second my fear is if I try grinding it off may warp the metal and I will then go from an extra metal situation to being on the thin side. I think I will leave it.
those flairs actually look well made.What do you think?Also who do you think made them?
Flairs are solid. I think this was done in the 80's so it was probably a Hall kit. The structure and shape is good but it looks kind of thrown together. I have a lot of clean up body work to do just as I have done these with these fenders. This is exactly why I like doing this type of stuff myself. At least with everything already welded I don't have to align anything.
I agree the flairs could have been installed much better .Atleast now they will be repaired properly.If you need any reference or tips I like to go to metalmeet.com.They also have a forum board and cover anything metal related from welding techniques to metal finishing.
Thanks, I will keep that in mind. I pretty much know what I am going to do, it's just going to take work. Frankly, I enjoy this part of the build the most.
You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
You do ...can I ship 6476 to you ???? LOL
Today I stripped my car completely of all its bolt on parts .. the car in on the rotissere and now the metal work starts ... only minor problem I have is aligning the flairs ... I have to mock up the suspension and need the wheels I'm going to use to get them right ??
Ok gotta get wheels ASAP.
Ron
I think the flairs will kind of align themselves but I think it prudent to check them as well. I bet they all fall into place. Lot of work ahead!
Got the rear left fender done today.
I had a thought ... maybe I can make up a set of spacers to simulate the new rims and tires by using my old ones ... then mock up the suspension and get started .. I will ask around one of my friends have to have a set of tire and rims around.
I tell you the only think I'm a little gun shy about ..is the electrical wiring .. we very carfully removed the harness .. and its in great shape .. but putting it back ... its not my thing ... LOL
Ron
I tell you the only think I'm a little gun shy about ..is the electrical wiring .. we very carfully removed the harness .. and its in great shape .. but putting it back ... its not my thing ... LOL
Ron
LOL, I yanked mine out with NO RESERVE!:
I am actually thinking of designing one from scratch with the fuse box and rellays in the front trunk. I plan (at this time) to recess my battery in the front trunk. I am making plenty of other changes as well. I cut the light bar as I wanted it removed. I will probably rob sopmehting from the junk yard (or ebay) for individual lights motors. I will probably cut the front main squar structural bar and rotate it 180 dgrees to make more room for a drop shoot hood which I am going to try to make out of scratch; aluminum. I want to duct all the air out of the top like the Gt-40. And I want to....and on and on...
I am actually thinking of designing one from scratch with the fuse box and rellays in the front trunk. I plan (at this time) to recess my battery in the front trunk. I am making plenty of other changes as well. I cut the light bar as I wanted it removed. I will probably rob sopmehting from the junk yard (or ebay) for individual lights motors. I will probably cut the front main squar structural bar and rotate it 180 dgrees to make more room for a drop shoot hood which I am going to try to make out of scratch; aluminum. I want to duct all the air out of the top like the Gt-40. And I want to....and on and on...
The wiring in my only reserve .. I was looking today .. the light bar is cut and gone .. no motors .. I'm going to make a set of fixed head light covers for the head ligths and do the same as you .. romve the front support and cut in to my metal hood and lay down the radiator.. I was a Xmas party tonoght with felow Pantera members and I think I filled the gap .. there was acouple engineers there .. LOL there designing stuff for the war so I think I have nothing to worry about with the electronics.
The fuel cell I want in the front and the battery submerged ..or in the fender well like the cobra .. lets see how motoivated I get ... I got the HALL cage .. and I woudl love to get rid of the consol and mount all the gauges in the dash ..
Ron
Ron
The fuel cell I want in the front and the battery submerged ..or in the fender well like the cobra .. lets see how motoivated I get ... I got the HALL cage .. and I woudl love to get rid of the consol and mount all the gauges in the dash ..
Ron
Ron
Ron what kind of time frame are you looking at for your restoration. I work slow like a turtle but I never stop. I expect to have metal work and mods done by the fall. Painting fall-next winder and assembly the folloing spring. This would be the earliest. Probably another 1-1/2 to 2 years at my pace.
It will be intersting to follow what we are doing simultainiously.
Gary
It will be intersting to follow what we are doing simultainiously.
Gary
Well I have to say I havent put much thought into time ... my business take priority .. but one of my helpers has expressed much interest in this project and he is helping me for 10.00 per hr.
So I think we are going to try to Media blast it our selves. I can borrow a big compressor and just have to rent the blaster .. got look into if its cost effective this week ..
Oh time ... hey no sooner then a year .. probably as you say spring 2008 is a fair estimate.
It would be cool to follow along with idea's.
Thanks Ron
So I think we are going to try to Media blast it our selves. I can borrow a big compressor and just have to rent the blaster .. got look into if its cost effective this week ..
Oh time ... hey no sooner then a year .. probably as you say spring 2008 is a fair estimate.
It would be cool to follow along with idea's.
Thanks Ron
Ron the sand blaster i am using is from HF:
I watch these guys blast and they have much larger nozzles and move a lot more volume in air and sand. They can blast like thay are hosing something down. I blast like I am trying to clean with a small marker. If some one else han not already knocked off the paint I don't think I could do it with what I have.
I watch these guys blast and they have much larger nozzles and move a lot more volume in air and sand. They can blast like thay are hosing something down. I blast like I am trying to clean with a small marker. If some one else han not already knocked off the paint I don't think I could do it with what I have.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
My plan is to borrow a trailer rotary compressor and buy an enlcosed bead blaster for small stuff,.
heres where I'm at today
Ron
I look forward to seeing that outfit. I am putting off more blasting till the weather improves. I don't want to blast in the cold then bring it in the warm as the humidity would play havoc. The barn is well insulated, dry with a small dehumid. It is keeping it around 28% at 70 degrees which is not too bad. I will do as much metal and fab work till the weather is better.
Ron how does your car rotate? I calculated and rewelded to the center point and it will rotate freely to any position.
Our Pivot prety close:
All 4 flairs now welded. I have a sun tan on my face now!
More Photos:
Nose was patched over top of steel and bent in more then the photo shows:
Panel shapped on english wheel. Still need a little more welding but shapped better then it looks in photo:
Nose was patched over top of steel and bent in more then the photo shows:
Panel shapped on english wheel. Still need a little more welding but shapped better then it looks in photo:
Valance on order from PrecisionProformance. I am going to replace the hole thing and make the screen removable by welding in nuts and washers to the new screen.
Great work man ..... ok today I spoke to the soda man and he says I should bring the car to his blast shop.. he cant guarrantee the paint and bondo will come off .. he says 150 per hr .. I'm a little sceptical .. so I called the local renta place they have the whole set up for 175 day ... media ?? what do you think about sand .. they say too much dust sillica ??? or maybe I chemical strip and then bring it to soda man.
Ron
Ron
Ron I would love to know how it works out. I would like to know if the unit works better then the small blaster I have been using. Deffinantly worth a rental to see.
If it were me I would start with the underbelly first and not the body. I use plain old sand from the hardware store at $2.50 to $3.50 a bad. One store I use play sand because it's dry. In the other store I get general purpose sand because it's dry. I don't recover the sand because basically I have not been set up to so so. I just shovel it into the rocks and let it sink in. I can use it there anyway.
In the future I would like to catch it with a tarp but I will need to run it through a screen other wise it will clog the tip.
You might do everything except the body and let them soda blast the body (since sand is cheap). I use a paint suit WITH HOOD. I don't have a blasting helmet. You will be shampooing your hair for an hour to get the sand out. I need to try a blasting helmet because I need the layerd screen where you sand a while and pull off a layer. I have been using a clear shield but I found goggles cheaper. ($2.50 at HF) Use for a while then pitch.It odoesn't take long before you cannot see out of them.
don't forget to wear a mask. That stuff is bad for you to breath. The constant iritation in your lungs can cause cancer.
Sure you don't want some one else to do it? Got your tylenol? I ran out of mask. Here I am holding an old aircraft window in fron of my face:
If it were me I would start with the underbelly first and not the body. I use plain old sand from the hardware store at $2.50 to $3.50 a bad. One store I use play sand because it's dry. In the other store I get general purpose sand because it's dry. I don't recover the sand because basically I have not been set up to so so. I just shovel it into the rocks and let it sink in. I can use it there anyway.
In the future I would like to catch it with a tarp but I will need to run it through a screen other wise it will clog the tip.
You might do everything except the body and let them soda blast the body (since sand is cheap). I use a paint suit WITH HOOD. I don't have a blasting helmet. You will be shampooing your hair for an hour to get the sand out. I need to try a blasting helmet because I need the layerd screen where you sand a while and pull off a layer. I have been using a clear shield but I found goggles cheaper. ($2.50 at HF) Use for a while then pitch.It odoesn't take long before you cannot see out of them.
don't forget to wear a mask. That stuff is bad for you to breath. The constant iritation in your lungs can cause cancer.
Sure you don't want some one else to do it? Got your tylenol? I ran out of mask. Here I am holding an old aircraft window in fron of my face:
Well tonight I resorted to using up an old gallon of paint stripper and the doors came down like a dream. I think I'm going to have my 10 perhr helper and I strip it with chemicals the body ... then get into the sand blasting... I think your right ... at the house on the rotissere sand blasting will work best with the big rental compressor and commercial set up then I'm going to buy the glass or soda media and finsh off what the chemical didnt do on the body. I have to say compared to what remember the stripper did a good job. years a go the factory baked emanmel was a bitch to get off ..this took about 3 coats and came down to bare metal.
Yoru right plain old play sand does the trick .. i used to recylce the sand and it cloggs the gun causing more aggrivation then its worth.
R
Yoru right plain old play sand does the trick .. i used to recylce the sand and it cloggs the gun causing more aggrivation then its worth.
R
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
They used sand on mine and if done properly there is no warping. I seem to remember that the sand won't cut through the undercoating under the car very well. It needed to be rough stripped first. Getting the sand out of the nooks and crannies isn't that bad if the car is on a rotisseri.
They used sand on mine and if done properly there is no warping. I seem to remember that the sand won't cut through the undercoating under the car very well. It needed to be rough stripped first. Getting the sand out of the nooks and crannies isn't that bad if the car is on a rotisseri.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeff6559:
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
QUOTE]
I am using a charcole mask. I don't see how that could not be adequate one time use. I think the poeple who do it for a living have to go overboard. OSHA has some real stringent regs n that. If they do it all day long every day they have to have a fresh air supply. Helps geep it out of their eyes as well.
I have used play sand and don't see anything wrong with it.
Ron looks like you know what is available to you and what will work for you.
Gary
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
QUOTE]
I am using a charcole mask. I don't see how that could not be adequate one time use. I think the poeple who do it for a living have to go overboard. OSHA has some real stringent regs n that. If they do it all day long every day they have to have a fresh air supply. Helps geep it out of their eyes as well.
I have used play sand and don't see anything wrong with it.
Ron looks like you know what is available to you and what will work for you.
Gary
Gary, I've been following your thread and progress on your car. I'm amazed at the time frame and progress that you've been operating within. What amazes me more is the depth of your talent in medal work....outstanding.
I spent 3 months with a heat gun, WD40 and wax/grease remover removing every spec of undercoating from the WHOLE underneath chassis.I do mean every speck. Along the way I was also chemically etching each section with Pickle X 20.Then applied Zero Rust in 3 coats.The same stuff they use in barges and oil rigs.My reasoning was if it could hold up to salt water 24/7 it would suffice in my under carriage.
I too wore a disposiable charcoal mask every step of the way. I changed out the filters very often when I was applying the organic paint of Zero Rust. It worked well for the hobbiest.I agree if its something that you did for a living I would invest in a full suit and hood.
Sand blasting. When it came down to the surface exterior of the body I was a little shocked when the person told me he was going to use a mixture of media and sand.He gave me a small demonstration of his talent.He used pure plastic media on the side of one fender. After a few minutes of off and on usage the media hardly made a dent in the removal of the old enamel.The original paint was like rock. He then mixed up the sand and media.What a diffence.It came off in no time at all. I told him I was really leary of warping the panels with the heat the sand generates.Another demonstration.I'm a doubting Thomas. He took a large sheet of metal blasted half of it with sand for a few minutes. Warped the panel.I was like WTF.He then did the other side in a different technique.Still using all sand. Smooth as can be.Its all about the person holding that gun, how they use it and most of all experience. He said he liked the mixture of media and sand because it removed All rust and the media allowed him a safety net of making sure no panels ever warped.He used fine play ground sand.Gotta say the final results said a lot about him.
Keep up the great work and the pictures coming.
Dan
I spent 3 months with a heat gun, WD40 and wax/grease remover removing every spec of undercoating from the WHOLE underneath chassis.I do mean every speck. Along the way I was also chemically etching each section with Pickle X 20.Then applied Zero Rust in 3 coats.The same stuff they use in barges and oil rigs.My reasoning was if it could hold up to salt water 24/7 it would suffice in my under carriage.
I too wore a disposiable charcoal mask every step of the way. I changed out the filters very often when I was applying the organic paint of Zero Rust. It worked well for the hobbiest.I agree if its something that you did for a living I would invest in a full suit and hood.
Sand blasting. When it came down to the surface exterior of the body I was a little shocked when the person told me he was going to use a mixture of media and sand.He gave me a small demonstration of his talent.He used pure plastic media on the side of one fender. After a few minutes of off and on usage the media hardly made a dent in the removal of the old enamel.The original paint was like rock. He then mixed up the sand and media.What a diffence.It came off in no time at all. I told him I was really leary of warping the panels with the heat the sand generates.Another demonstration.I'm a doubting Thomas. He took a large sheet of metal blasted half of it with sand for a few minutes. Warped the panel.I was like WTF.He then did the other side in a different technique.Still using all sand. Smooth as can be.Its all about the person holding that gun, how they use it and most of all experience. He said he liked the mixture of media and sand because it removed All rust and the media allowed him a safety net of making sure no panels ever warped.He used fine play ground sand.Gotta say the final results said a lot about him.
Keep up the great work and the pictures coming.
Dan