The wiring in my only reserve .. I was looking today .. the light bar is cut and gone .. no motors .. I'm going to make a set of fixed head light covers for the head ligths and do the same as you .. romve the front support and cut in to my metal hood and lay down the radiator.. I was a Xmas party tonoght with felow Pantera members and I think I filled the gap .. there was acouple engineers there .. LOL there designing stuff for the war so I think I have nothing to worry about with the electronics.
The fuel cell I want in the front and the battery submerged ..or in the fender well like the cobra .. lets see how motoivated I get ... I got the HALL cage .. and I woudl love to get rid of the consol and mount all the gauges in the dash ..
Ron
Ron
Ron what kind of time frame are you looking at for your restoration. I work slow like a turtle but I never stop. I expect to have metal work and mods done by the fall. Painting fall-next winder and assembly the folloing spring. This would be the earliest. Probably another 1-1/2 to 2 years at my pace.
It will be intersting to follow what we are doing simultainiously.
Gary
It will be intersting to follow what we are doing simultainiously.
Gary
Well I have to say I havent put much thought into time ... my business take priority .. but one of my helpers has expressed much interest in this project and he is helping me for 10.00 per hr.
So I think we are going to try to Media blast it our selves. I can borrow a big compressor and just have to rent the blaster .. got look into if its cost effective this week ..
Oh time ... hey no sooner then a year .. probably as you say spring 2008 is a fair estimate.
It would be cool to follow along with idea's.
Thanks Ron
So I think we are going to try to Media blast it our selves. I can borrow a big compressor and just have to rent the blaster .. got look into if its cost effective this week ..
Oh time ... hey no sooner then a year .. probably as you say spring 2008 is a fair estimate.
It would be cool to follow along with idea's.
Thanks Ron
Ron the sand blaster i am using is from HF:
I watch these guys blast and they have much larger nozzles and move a lot more volume in air and sand. They can blast like thay are hosing something down. I blast like I am trying to clean with a small marker. If some one else han not already knocked off the paint I don't think I could do it with what I have.
I watch these guys blast and they have much larger nozzles and move a lot more volume in air and sand. They can blast like thay are hosing something down. I blast like I am trying to clean with a small marker. If some one else han not already knocked off the paint I don't think I could do it with what I have.
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
My plan is to borrow a trailer rotary compressor and buy an enlcosed bead blaster for small stuff,.
heres where I'm at today
Ron
I look forward to seeing that outfit. I am putting off more blasting till the weather improves. I don't want to blast in the cold then bring it in the warm as the humidity would play havoc. The barn is well insulated, dry with a small dehumid. It is keeping it around 28% at 70 degrees which is not too bad. I will do as much metal and fab work till the weather is better.
Ron how does your car rotate? I calculated and rewelded to the center point and it will rotate freely to any position.
Our Pivot prety close:
All 4 flairs now welded. I have a sun tan on my face now!
More Photos:
Nose was patched over top of steel and bent in more then the photo shows:
Panel shapped on english wheel. Still need a little more welding but shapped better then it looks in photo:
Nose was patched over top of steel and bent in more then the photo shows:
Panel shapped on english wheel. Still need a little more welding but shapped better then it looks in photo:
Valance on order from PrecisionProformance. I am going to replace the hole thing and make the screen removable by welding in nuts and washers to the new screen.
Great work man ..... ok today I spoke to the soda man and he says I should bring the car to his blast shop.. he cant guarrantee the paint and bondo will come off .. he says 150 per hr .. I'm a little sceptical .. so I called the local renta place they have the whole set up for 175 day ... media ?? what do you think about sand .. they say too much dust sillica ??? or maybe I chemical strip and then bring it to soda man.
Ron
Ron
Ron I would love to know how it works out. I would like to know if the unit works better then the small blaster I have been using. Deffinantly worth a rental to see.
If it were me I would start with the underbelly first and not the body. I use plain old sand from the hardware store at $2.50 to $3.50 a bad. One store I use play sand because it's dry. In the other store I get general purpose sand because it's dry. I don't recover the sand because basically I have not been set up to so so. I just shovel it into the rocks and let it sink in. I can use it there anyway.
In the future I would like to catch it with a tarp but I will need to run it through a screen other wise it will clog the tip.
You might do everything except the body and let them soda blast the body (since sand is cheap). I use a paint suit WITH HOOD. I don't have a blasting helmet. You will be shampooing your hair for an hour to get the sand out. I need to try a blasting helmet because I need the layerd screen where you sand a while and pull off a layer. I have been using a clear shield but I found goggles cheaper. ($2.50 at HF) Use for a while then pitch.It odoesn't take long before you cannot see out of them.
don't forget to wear a mask. That stuff is bad for you to breath. The constant iritation in your lungs can cause cancer.
Sure you don't want some one else to do it? Got your tylenol? I ran out of mask. Here I am holding an old aircraft window in fron of my face:
If it were me I would start with the underbelly first and not the body. I use plain old sand from the hardware store at $2.50 to $3.50 a bad. One store I use play sand because it's dry. In the other store I get general purpose sand because it's dry. I don't recover the sand because basically I have not been set up to so so. I just shovel it into the rocks and let it sink in. I can use it there anyway.
In the future I would like to catch it with a tarp but I will need to run it through a screen other wise it will clog the tip.
You might do everything except the body and let them soda blast the body (since sand is cheap). I use a paint suit WITH HOOD. I don't have a blasting helmet. You will be shampooing your hair for an hour to get the sand out. I need to try a blasting helmet because I need the layerd screen where you sand a while and pull off a layer. I have been using a clear shield but I found goggles cheaper. ($2.50 at HF) Use for a while then pitch.It odoesn't take long before you cannot see out of them.
don't forget to wear a mask. That stuff is bad for you to breath. The constant iritation in your lungs can cause cancer.
Sure you don't want some one else to do it? Got your tylenol? I ran out of mask. Here I am holding an old aircraft window in fron of my face:
Well tonight I resorted to using up an old gallon of paint stripper and the doors came down like a dream. I think I'm going to have my 10 perhr helper and I strip it with chemicals the body ... then get into the sand blasting... I think your right ... at the house on the rotissere sand blasting will work best with the big rental compressor and commercial set up then I'm going to buy the glass or soda media and finsh off what the chemical didnt do on the body. I have to say compared to what remember the stripper did a good job. years a go the factory baked emanmel was a bitch to get off ..this took about 3 coats and came down to bare metal.
Yoru right plain old play sand does the trick .. i used to recylce the sand and it cloggs the gun causing more aggrivation then its worth.
R
Yoru right plain old play sand does the trick .. i used to recylce the sand and it cloggs the gun causing more aggrivation then its worth.
R
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
They used sand on mine and if done properly there is no warping. I seem to remember that the sand won't cut through the undercoating under the car very well. It needed to be rough stripped first. Getting the sand out of the nooks and crannies isn't that bad if the car is on a rotisseri.
They used sand on mine and if done properly there is no warping. I seem to remember that the sand won't cut through the undercoating under the car very well. It needed to be rough stripped first. Getting the sand out of the nooks and crannies isn't that bad if the car is on a rotisseri.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeff6559:
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
QUOTE]
I am using a charcole mask. I don't see how that could not be adequate one time use. I think the poeple who do it for a living have to go overboard. OSHA has some real stringent regs n that. If they do it all day long every day they have to have a fresh air supply. Helps geep it out of their eyes as well.
I have used play sand and don't see anything wrong with it.
Ron looks like you know what is available to you and what will work for you.
Gary
I thought sandbox sand was not good to use. Also, all the professional places I visited used a pressurized ventilation breathing system, not a mask. That stuff is dangerous and doesn't come out of your lungs.
QUOTE]
I am using a charcole mask. I don't see how that could not be adequate one time use. I think the poeple who do it for a living have to go overboard. OSHA has some real stringent regs n that. If they do it all day long every day they have to have a fresh air supply. Helps geep it out of their eyes as well.
I have used play sand and don't see anything wrong with it.
Ron looks like you know what is available to you and what will work for you.
Gary
Gary, I've been following your thread and progress on your car. I'm amazed at the time frame and progress that you've been operating within. What amazes me more is the depth of your talent in medal work....outstanding.
I spent 3 months with a heat gun, WD40 and wax/grease remover removing every spec of undercoating from the WHOLE underneath chassis.I do mean every speck. Along the way I was also chemically etching each section with Pickle X 20.Then applied Zero Rust in 3 coats.The same stuff they use in barges and oil rigs.My reasoning was if it could hold up to salt water 24/7 it would suffice in my under carriage.
I too wore a disposiable charcoal mask every step of the way. I changed out the filters very often when I was applying the organic paint of Zero Rust. It worked well for the hobbiest.I agree if its something that you did for a living I would invest in a full suit and hood.
Sand blasting. When it came down to the surface exterior of the body I was a little shocked when the person told me he was going to use a mixture of media and sand.He gave me a small demonstration of his talent.He used pure plastic media on the side of one fender. After a few minutes of off and on usage the media hardly made a dent in the removal of the old enamel.The original paint was like rock. He then mixed up the sand and media.What a diffence.It came off in no time at all. I told him I was really leary of warping the panels with the heat the sand generates.Another demonstration.I'm a doubting Thomas. He took a large sheet of metal blasted half of it with sand for a few minutes. Warped the panel.I was like WTF.He then did the other side in a different technique.Still using all sand. Smooth as can be.Its all about the person holding that gun, how they use it and most of all experience. He said he liked the mixture of media and sand because it removed All rust and the media allowed him a safety net of making sure no panels ever warped.He used fine play ground sand.Gotta say the final results said a lot about him.
Keep up the great work and the pictures coming.
Dan
I spent 3 months with a heat gun, WD40 and wax/grease remover removing every spec of undercoating from the WHOLE underneath chassis.I do mean every speck. Along the way I was also chemically etching each section with Pickle X 20.Then applied Zero Rust in 3 coats.The same stuff they use in barges and oil rigs.My reasoning was if it could hold up to salt water 24/7 it would suffice in my under carriage.
I too wore a disposiable charcoal mask every step of the way. I changed out the filters very often when I was applying the organic paint of Zero Rust. It worked well for the hobbiest.I agree if its something that you did for a living I would invest in a full suit and hood.
Sand blasting. When it came down to the surface exterior of the body I was a little shocked when the person told me he was going to use a mixture of media and sand.He gave me a small demonstration of his talent.He used pure plastic media on the side of one fender. After a few minutes of off and on usage the media hardly made a dent in the removal of the old enamel.The original paint was like rock. He then mixed up the sand and media.What a diffence.It came off in no time at all. I told him I was really leary of warping the panels with the heat the sand generates.Another demonstration.I'm a doubting Thomas. He took a large sheet of metal blasted half of it with sand for a few minutes. Warped the panel.I was like WTF.He then did the other side in a different technique.Still using all sand. Smooth as can be.Its all about the person holding that gun, how they use it and most of all experience. He said he liked the mixture of media and sand because it removed All rust and the media allowed him a safety net of making sure no panels ever warped.He used fine play ground sand.Gotta say the final results said a lot about him.
Keep up the great work and the pictures coming.
Dan
Thanks Dan,
Kudos to you as well. I love the process. I was just talking about how I need to trouble shoot an electrical problem on the Cutlass but how I would rather spend the afternoon cutting and welding on the Pantera. It just makes me feel like have done something. The last 10% of a restoration is the hardest for me.
Kudos to you as well. I love the process. I was just talking about how I need to trouble shoot an electrical problem on the Cutlass but how I would rather spend the afternoon cutting and welding on the Pantera. It just makes me feel like have done something. The last 10% of a restoration is the hardest for me.
Gotta have the highest respect for the man who strives for perfection in his car.The last 10%, yep I'm finally their now. 
Dan
Dan
quote:Originally posted by Danno:
Gotta have the highest respect for the man who strives for perfection in his car.The last 10%, yep I'm finally their now.
Dan
Do you find the last few bugs....hard to work on?
I do, just a lttle burned out on it. As it stands now. The 17,000 stock engine needs seal/gasket kit and engine spray.The bell housing and engine mounts are already powder coated.Install flywheel,clutch, bellhousing and tranny. Drop her in and bolt half shafts and linkage up.Small stuff. Just stepping back for a while.Not sure if I'm going to install the stock motor or not.Would love the sound of a Dart Windsor stroker. This stuff is insane. We are never really done are we? Time for therapy from my therapy!! 
Dan would love to see some more photos in your thread.
Gary
Gary
I'll take some late next week. My camera is on a weeks trip.
Dan
Dan
Ron I worked harder at recovering the sand today. I got a 2 gal bucket and screen wire. I filtered it then put it back in. When done I put some large trash bags in some small trash cans and put the filtered sand back in the trash cans for tomorrow. Worth while thing to do.
This is the 5th full day of sand blasting with por15 at the end of the day. This is a days worth:
This is the 5th full day of sand blasting with por15 at the end of the day. This is a days worth:
Looks great .. but why not etch prime the underside and paint with black enamel. Not familiar with POR15 ??? is it a brush application ??
R
R
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Looks great .. but why not etch prime the underside and paint with black enamel. Not familiar with POR15 ??? is it a brush application ??
R
You can spray or brush it on. They have a website for additional information. www.por-15.com
Ron Por15 is a rust protectant. You can brush it right over rust. It is why the British car guys love it for their retsorations. A lot of poeple rave on it. I was on the fence weather to do the underbelly and chassis with it but finally decided to. It needed a rough surface to adhere to. It gave you some options. It said just knock the rust off and coat. I wanted as much rust as I could get to gone so I wasn't going to just put this over rust. I may spray this in all the channels though.
It said you could use their acid metal prep before hand but then wash it off. I thought this was not the best idea. Where does it go and how do you control the resedue. If you wash it off won't it rust up then? Next it said to either sand or sandblast. I decided to blast.
Supose to be tenatious stuff. It actually cures from moisture so if moisture is present it sucks it out. It actually says best put on dry and cured in a damp environment. What are we the weathermen?
Can be primed, painted and should be topcoated as it will fade in UV. I thought I would use it for non-body parts; especially underbelly and areas hard to get to. That way if I did not get it 100% blasted I still have some protection.
More photos from today:
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6a.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6c.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6d.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6f.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6g.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6h.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6i.jpg
I figure probably 3 more days on the chassis.
Gary
It said you could use their acid metal prep before hand but then wash it off. I thought this was not the best idea. Where does it go and how do you control the resedue. If you wash it off won't it rust up then? Next it said to either sand or sandblast. I decided to blast.
Supose to be tenatious stuff. It actually cures from moisture so if moisture is present it sucks it out. It actually says best put on dry and cured in a damp environment. What are we the weathermen?
Can be primed, painted and should be topcoated as it will fade in UV. I thought I would use it for non-body parts; especially underbelly and areas hard to get to. That way if I did not get it 100% blasted I still have some protection.
More photos from today:
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6a.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6c.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6d.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6f.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6g.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6h.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/day6i.jpg
I figure probably 3 more days on the chassis.
Gary
Great progress ...
Forgot to take pics ... but today I got almost the entire car chemically stripped ... I'm up in the air .. I think I'm gonna rent the compressor and blaster and do it myself. Not sure what media to use .. maybe sand since I will have all the body panels stripped.
Tell you something funny .. the car had BONDO in alot of places for NO REASON ... after removing it I found the panels are straight ...
Another thing the car had a nose put on it .. what appears to be when it was NEW ... the seems are finished with LEAD and a real nice job. So monday I progress further and by next weekend I plan to rent the BLASTER.
Pic tomorrow.
Forgot to take pics ... but today I got almost the entire car chemically stripped ... I'm up in the air .. I think I'm gonna rent the compressor and blaster and do it myself. Not sure what media to use .. maybe sand since I will have all the body panels stripped.
Tell you something funny .. the car had BONDO in alot of places for NO REASON ... after removing it I found the panels are straight ...
Another thing the car had a nose put on it .. what appears to be when it was NEW ... the seems are finished with LEAD and a real nice job. So monday I progress further and by next weekend I plan to rent the BLASTER.
Pic tomorrow.
Ok forgot one question .. so the POR15 you paint over it ??
Ron
Ron
Ron in nose and everwhere you see red:
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/blast2.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/blast7.jpg
When you get some photos start a dual thread.
Kudos with the chemical stripper! I have been recovering my sand and only used 2 brand new bags the etire day. I have been having difficulty with the moisture. It has been a little more humid today and the sand kept clogging up. I am thinking of getting the HF refrigerated line drier. I ended up removing the 9/32 and the entire hose attatchment on the end and simply pushing in an air attatchment plug into the hose. The hole was bigger and the velocity was down but it didn't clog. I covered more ground to start but ran out of good air pressure quicker with the big hole. I also did not have as much cleaning power with the bigger hole.
Glad today is over. This will give me plenty to work on in the garage for a while.
G
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/blast2.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/cars/panttransam/1905/blast/blast7.jpg
When you get some photos start a dual thread.
Kudos with the chemical stripper! I have been recovering my sand and only used 2 brand new bags the etire day. I have been having difficulty with the moisture. It has been a little more humid today and the sand kept clogging up. I am thinking of getting the HF refrigerated line drier. I ended up removing the 9/32 and the entire hose attatchment on the end and simply pushing in an air attatchment plug into the hose. The hole was bigger and the velocity was down but it didn't clog. I covered more ground to start but ran out of good air pressure quicker with the big hole. I also did not have as much cleaning power with the bigger hole.
Glad today is over. This will give me plenty to work on in the garage for a while.
G
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Ok forgot one question .. so the POR15 you paint over it ??
Ron
Yes but I think it more for underbelly, up around the radiator, in the headlight area, under fenders.
http://nomorerust.com
http://www.coolcarceramic.com/index.htm
Here's a couple of other ones to consider.
http://www.coolcarceramic.com/index.htm
Here's a couple of other ones to consider.
I have to commend both of you for the excellent post....its been fun watching the progress.
One question Comp2.....how did you get the p-car on and off the rotissare?
One question Comp2.....how did you get the p-car on and off the rotissare?
quote:Originally posted by Fahrenheit351:
I have to commend both of you for the excellent post....its been fun watching the progress.
One question Comp2.....how did you get the p-car on and off the rotissare?
I have a chassis dolly I jack up and down. You can see here when I was fabbing up the roto:
Gary
When I get ready to work on the hood I am going to duct all the air out the hood instead of under the car. I am thinking of reversing this beam to see if that gives me enough air flow with a laydown:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by comp2:
When I get ready to work on the hood I am going to duct all the air out the hood instead of under the car. I am thinking of reversing this beam to see if that gives me enough air flow with a laydown:
You do great work and I'm sure if you did it, you would do it well. Are you thinking ala GT40 and prefer that look? I think it depends more upon the look you wish to achieve. FWIW, I don't think it's needed from a cooling standpoint. IMO, the only cooling challenge to a Pantera is at rest, not at speed. This is so provided you have selected a good, properly sized, aluminum radiator, sucker plenum, and fans. This is especially the case with increased HP. There is sufficient room to accomplish this without mod. None of the small hood grilles can flow enough air to make a material difference, thus your remarks about the need for doing something more significant. There may be a minor arguement to be made about control of air flow under the car, but again, I don't think it significant.
Keep up the good work. I enjoy watching your progress and the quality of your work.
Kelly
When I get ready to work on the hood I am going to duct all the air out the hood instead of under the car. I am thinking of reversing this beam to see if that gives me enough air flow with a laydown:
You do great work and I'm sure if you did it, you would do it well. Are you thinking ala GT40 and prefer that look? I think it depends more upon the look you wish to achieve. FWIW, I don't think it's needed from a cooling standpoint. IMO, the only cooling challenge to a Pantera is at rest, not at speed. This is so provided you have selected a good, properly sized, aluminum radiator, sucker plenum, and fans. This is especially the case with increased HP. There is sufficient room to accomplish this without mod. None of the small hood grilles can flow enough air to make a material difference, thus your remarks about the need for doing something more significant. There may be a minor arguement to be made about control of air flow under the car, but again, I don't think it significant.
Keep up the good work. I enjoy watching your progress and the quality of your work.
Kelly
Kelly .. you have a good point .. two things come to mind.
The stock hood vents ? Well from the looks of them on 9138 .. between the grilles and screens the measure maybe 12" x 4 " = 48 square inches x 2 grilles 96 sq inches ..then subtract the grilles every 1/2" which easily cuts the free area in half 48 sq inches then the screen .. every 1/8 inch .. cuts the free area in half again .. 24 sq inches then the mounting frame .. around the edge ... THESE STOCK GRILLES are eye candy .. they do practically nothing ... so with that said any other type of hood grille would benefit over the stock .... my opinion.
Ron
The stock hood vents ? Well from the looks of them on 9138 .. between the grilles and screens the measure maybe 12" x 4 " = 48 square inches x 2 grilles 96 sq inches ..then subtract the grilles every 1/2" which easily cuts the free area in half 48 sq inches then the screen .. every 1/8 inch .. cuts the free area in half again .. 24 sq inches then the mounting frame .. around the edge ... THESE STOCK GRILLES are eye candy .. they do practically nothing ... so with that said any other type of hood grille would benefit over the stock .... my opinion.
Ron
Thanks Kelly, the purpose doesn't have to do with cooling. These cars duct all the air under the car which is not good. This is like a hover craft at speed and I think can be a lot better. I want to evacuate all the air from under the car and close off the underbelly. I don't think it will look better either it's just functionally what I want to do.
Ya-know my view is and always has been: modify to your own tastes. I’ve never been a trailer queen guy or a collector that values originality in minute detail over functionality and performance. Just look at my car, a 74 US GTS. I'm routinely given grief about modifying such a "rare" car. To me, it was just a nice Pantera with pop riveted flares, GTS badges, and a clock in the dash. No offense to original US GTS owners, that’s just me. These choices are what make the car hobby fun and interesting. Drive’m hard boys.
So with all that said, if it’s what you want to do, all the power to you. I understand and even like it and you'll do it well. But at the high risk of hijacking your thread (apologies in advance, I realize it's your photos post, so delete my remarks at will), seems like the two issues discussed in the later remarks are aerodynamic flow and cooling.
I just don’t think I can agree the mod you describe will provide some measurable functional improvement in a street car and would even question it for anything except extreme competition. So, the first thing I’d have to ask is what’s the purpose of the car? (I know; fun! But..) Is it an open road race car or a street car? The air dam design and its ground clearance will drastically affect under car flow compared to the comparatively modest amount of air you’ll get through the radiator, fan, etc., and unless we’re talking very high speeds and competition where the minutia matters. I just don’t think this volume of air and belly pans are material compared to other factors. But IMO, they do look great.
After an effective air dam, the other factors that cause nose lift at speed such as the shape of the Pantera in general, the configuration of the nose, and especially the and rake of the car, are orders of magnitude larger factors than the contribution from the volume of air you can deliver under the car through the cooling system. If you have a different view, happy to hear it.
I also see a lot of people performing hood mods for the purpose of addressing cooling issues and simply put, it takes radical mods to make any measurable improvement in this regard and rarely if ever (never in the case of the small grilles) do they address low speed cooling issues. OK fellas, have at me.
Kelly
So with all that said, if it’s what you want to do, all the power to you. I understand and even like it and you'll do it well. But at the high risk of hijacking your thread (apologies in advance, I realize it's your photos post, so delete my remarks at will), seems like the two issues discussed in the later remarks are aerodynamic flow and cooling.
I just don’t think I can agree the mod you describe will provide some measurable functional improvement in a street car and would even question it for anything except extreme competition. So, the first thing I’d have to ask is what’s the purpose of the car? (I know; fun! But..) Is it an open road race car or a street car? The air dam design and its ground clearance will drastically affect under car flow compared to the comparatively modest amount of air you’ll get through the radiator, fan, etc., and unless we’re talking very high speeds and competition where the minutia matters. I just don’t think this volume of air and belly pans are material compared to other factors. But IMO, they do look great.
After an effective air dam, the other factors that cause nose lift at speed such as the shape of the Pantera in general, the configuration of the nose, and especially the and rake of the car, are orders of magnitude larger factors than the contribution from the volume of air you can deliver under the car through the cooling system. If you have a different view, happy to hear it.
I also see a lot of people performing hood mods for the purpose of addressing cooling issues and simply put, it takes radical mods to make any measurable improvement in this regard and rarely if ever (never in the case of the small grilles) do they address low speed cooling issues. OK fellas, have at me.
Kelly
A road race is not out of the question. It depends on how I feel about the car after putting this much time in it.
Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car. That I think a major design flaw and with this much work it simply bothers me to leave it that way. We hear what everone guesses about this and that on the internet. I have listened to people tell me what a bastard engine the 400 is. I like to go beyond the "Ideal internet answer". I feel stongly that the air flow is a major design flaw of the car and I am going to make the changes to my car. Only then can we see that "A" it was a waste of time or "B" HOlly cow, I never knew it could hold the road like this! I EXPECT improvements even at highway speeds and I don't see any negatives (other then a big hole in my hood).
This car was highly modified to start so I have no quams about more modification. It is a very solid platform to start. I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Gary
Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car. That I think a major design flaw and with this much work it simply bothers me to leave it that way. We hear what everone guesses about this and that on the internet. I have listened to people tell me what a bastard engine the 400 is. I like to go beyond the "Ideal internet answer". I feel stongly that the air flow is a major design flaw of the car and I am going to make the changes to my car. Only then can we see that "A" it was a waste of time or "B" HOlly cow, I never knew it could hold the road like this! I EXPECT improvements even at highway speeds and I don't see any negatives (other then a big hole in my hood).
This car was highly modified to start so I have no quams about more modification. It is a very solid platform to start. I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Gary
OH PS, If iw was just to drive down the street I would get a Honda 4 door! 
quote:Having said that in any form ALL the air scooped up by the air duct is pushed under the car.
Ok Gary, I'll have one more go with you and then drop it. I would contend the primary purpose of the dam isn't nor does it incidently "scoop up" ALL the air and deliver it under the car car via the cooling system. I guess I'm talking air dam and you're talking the stock radiator opening. -Peace. But a decent air dam will displace the air properly and though I certainly would not debate the point as to whether the tyypical widebody Pantera dam design was optimal in that regard, I also don't think it was such a flop that the majority of the air displaced by the dam finds it's way under the car due to the limited frontal area of the radiator, pressure drop through such, and the nature of the rest of the dam. I stand by my earlier remarks in regard to lift and I guess my primary point was put an effective air dam that puppy.
quote:I have an early pushbutton which is next which will remain pretty much stock when I get to it.
Man, you're killing me. All I can do now is sign off, walk out in the garage, and mumble to myself as work on my EFI
. -You have all the fun.Have a good holiday.
Kelly
True I am talking about how the air is displaced after the air dam scoops it and the air dam does work well but the ducting afterwards defeats it. You have to admidt the air dam does scoop a lot of air and to throw it back under the car is the oposide of what it was trying to do in the first place.
Happy holidays, I am getting ready to go flying.
Gary
Happy holidays, I am getting ready to go flying.
Gary
Little slow with the holidays.
Got the chin removed last night and the new chin from precisionproformance. I need to cut out more metal, blast and rebuild the channel on the inside. This is by far the worst spot on the car. It may be put on hold for a warm dry day to do more sand blasting in this area. I am going to make the screen removable.
New panel for this nose, other nose leaded and ready for final body work:
Got the chin removed last night and the new chin from precisionproformance. I need to cut out more metal, blast and rebuild the channel on the inside. This is by far the worst spot on the car. It may be put on hold for a warm dry day to do more sand blasting in this area. I am going to make the screen removable.
New panel for this nose, other nose leaded and ready for final body work:
I have to make that exact patch in the front of my car .. get rid of the marker light, patch the hole for the bumper and patch the other 2 holes for the bumperettes .. I may put the bumperettes back on.
nice work gary ...
Ron
nice work gary ...
Ron
I am a little early on picking color but it has been in the front of my mind. What do you guys think. This was the original:
I am thinking of a warm silver or a darker silver. This is not a great rendering but you get the idea:
I am thinking of a warm silver or a darker silver. This is not a great rendering but you get the idea:
Hi The pictures stopped coming in.Is there a hold on the project? Even little things are worth showing.Thanks for all the info so far
Sam
Sam
quote:Originally posted by thewop:
Hi The pictures stopped coming in.Is there a hold on the project? Even little things are worth showing.Thanks for all the info so far
Sam
Hey sam, I submited some stuf to George for PI so I have not been posting as much.
I work like a turtle. I have had some stuff going on but I still get a few things done here and there. Front Valance is done, I got all the metal work done on the belly. Replaced several channel pieces including the pads for jacking the cars with 11 gauge steel and inner suports. Drain holes welded up. Working back to the engine bay. Got all the holes and eveything welded up on one side and now begining on the other side. There was a crappy repair job done on one of the suport members. Not only was it crappy but it was not properly boxed in. I am replacing it right now:
I have also located the 15" wheels I have been looking for and found tires for them. I only have one right now but this will allow me to work out the steering geometry with new a-arms and uprights and power steering. Lot of planning going on.
Gary
Gary
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
quote:Originally posted by thewop:
Gary
Looks like a excellent fix compared to what was there.Don't you just hate having to redo someone else's work?Sometimes you wish things were better left alone until done properly.Can you show where you welded in the jack plates?
Thanks Sam
Sam that will be covered in the articles I submited to george.
That repair done. On to the next:
quote:That repair done. On to the next:
Very nice. Don't forget to drill the drain holes at the bottom.
Drain holes and spraying the inside of channels will be a project all on it's own.
My goodness me.
What an incredable posting/thread you guys. Well done, very informative... Thanks for all your trouble Gary/Ron,- you really should put it all together and publish it book form...no kidding. Gr8 job.
You ask why no one has made repro. body panels yet, well in a small way we are here in S.A. - Its taken us a looong time to get it right, but we now have 'good' molds for 'proper' carbon fiber GRP4 flared fenders, door skins, big 'bunny-ears' side scoops, door skins, frt. & back deck lids, both with standard look and also ones with much bigger vents also frt & rear. All this fitted to my 76 'skinny body'. Theres a short video/audio clip of my car, (without the carbon body work,)- but with 180's and 48IDA's being yanked-on during tuneing session...pics of the carbon bits coming up on website soon. Read about all this on my new website just gone 'live'....article on the "Ultimate Pantera" we are building using these carbon panels attached to composite Nomex sandwhich chassis. No welding only glueing. Stronger, lighter. My chassis guy says the car will come in under 1900lbs. The composite chassis is 200lbs lighter than the metal space-frame chassis for the 32x GT40 replicas he has built over the years.. See pics on the site...video to come.
I am going the full 'Mad Swede' Goran's weight loss diet; glass out, center consol out, useless popup lights out. ( we have saved 45lbs each side losing all the associated 'stuff' related to the popups) ..have gone projector lamps and perspex covers, like Goran.. Thought i'd pass this on.....Keep up the good work...
What an incredable posting/thread you guys. Well done, very informative... Thanks for all your trouble Gary/Ron,- you really should put it all together and publish it book form...no kidding. Gr8 job.
You ask why no one has made repro. body panels yet, well in a small way we are here in S.A. - Its taken us a looong time to get it right, but we now have 'good' molds for 'proper' carbon fiber GRP4 flared fenders, door skins, big 'bunny-ears' side scoops, door skins, frt. & back deck lids, both with standard look and also ones with much bigger vents also frt & rear. All this fitted to my 76 'skinny body'. Theres a short video/audio clip of my car, (without the carbon body work,)- but with 180's and 48IDA's being yanked-on during tuneing session...pics of the carbon bits coming up on website soon. Read about all this on my new website just gone 'live'....article on the "Ultimate Pantera" we are building using these carbon panels attached to composite Nomex sandwhich chassis. No welding only glueing. Stronger, lighter. My chassis guy says the car will come in under 1900lbs. The composite chassis is 200lbs lighter than the metal space-frame chassis for the 32x GT40 replicas he has built over the years.. See pics on the site...video to come.
I am going the full 'Mad Swede' Goran's weight loss diet; glass out, center consol out, useless popup lights out. ( we have saved 45lbs each side losing all the associated 'stuff' related to the popups) ..have gone projector lamps and perspex covers, like Goran.. Thought i'd pass this on.....Keep up the good work...
Thanks Tai,
Been side tracked building a trade show display:
Gary
Been side tracked building a trade show display:
Gary
Building the trade show display made a mess of the barn. I spent a good portion of the spring cleaning the barn and re-organizing. I am hopefully back on track. I finished the final sandblasting and por15 of everything but body panels last weekend. I have already welded up the inner wheel well here:
Much general welding on the chassis is done but still a little to do. Soon start fabricating. The best part!
Gary
Much general welding on the chassis is done but still a little to do. Soon start fabricating. The best part!
Gary
Still alive, not that anyone cares. Finished blasting the outside off the car. Every square inch has been taken to virgin metal and either POR15 (non-body pannels) or etch primed (body pannels). A lot of metal work done but a lot to go.
Gary
Gary
GARY!!! I was wondering how you were doing. Just last wekk Art Stevens was asking about stroker motors and I told him to talk to you about it. I love what you are doing to your car. I wish you had done it on speed channel though, so we could have all watched you every week.
Thanks guys, some weeks it seems like I can move mountains, other weeks I am lucky if I can move a rock!
Lookin Good Gary .... what blasting equipment are you using ...it looks like its work real well.
Ron
Ron
Ron it's just a generic blaster from Harbor Freight. It is about like cleaning metal with a magic marker. What you see cleaned is 9 hours of blasting with some of it done ahead of time. Keep in mind the paint had already been removed by soda blasting. Between sitting, the metal work done and the soda blasting it still needed to be lightly blasted. The soda blasting removed the paint but not much of the rust and it did not rough up the metal.
I just did a resto job just like this on my '67 Firebird convertible. I used a painless wire kit and it went smooth and easy, has anyone treid to adapt a painless kit for a cat??... I mean for 335 bucks you can just pick a spot for the fuse block and run the wires?.. Say if you got a harness for a large car with all options, the wires would be plenty long, there would provisions for all option??.. Mine even door servo, elec fan..etc??... Has this been done???...
quote:Originally posted by PLT-1:
I just did a resto job just like this on my '67 Firebird convertible. I used a painless wire kit and it went smooth and easy, has anyone treid to adapt a painless kit for a cat??... I mean for 335 bucks you can just pick a spot for the fuse block and run the wires?.. Say if you got a harness for a large car with all options, the wires would be plenty long, there would provisions for all option??.. Mine even door servo, elec fan..etc??... Has this been done???...
I was not only thinking of a painless wiring kit but I was also thinking about mounting it in the front trunk instead of under the dash.
Let's see photos of the Firebird:
Gary
I love photos! That car was pretty light those years weren't they?
I don't know what this thing weighs??... A drag racer would know... I would be surprised if a coupe was heavier then this car. This thing has a bunch more stuff on it...
When I was 17 I had a $500 car (1972 4-door Chevy). I was looking for a descent car. Dad felt after a year of driving I could get something better. I saw a 1973 TA just like the one I have for $2k. It was a gorgeous car! I came home and told Dad about it. He asked what it had in it. I told him it had a 455. He said "Son, ain't no way in hell your getting a car with a 455 in it!" That car was ingrained in my head. It's like a duck that forms on the first thing it sees when it is born. It may as well been my first girlfriend who got away and I wanted one every since.
I got this car a couple years ago for 10X what I could have back then but I finally got it. Funny thing was the guy I bought it from kept taking about how fast it was. It has a bigger cam, bigger heads, etc. When I got it home and got a chance to drive it around, I told him if he though it was fast, he should hop in my Pantera, it would re-define what he thought fast was. I think he took offense to that! LOL
The TA is not that fast but it's a lot of fun. It is our family drive in car and pizza car. Ironically out of 7 cars (one is a truck) the TA is one of 2 automatics. The other automatic is the 76 OLDs (455). The auto is actually a nice break form the other cars; especially my Ford F-350 which is probably got a master Cyl on the way out.
I got this car a couple years ago for 10X what I could have back then but I finally got it. Funny thing was the guy I bought it from kept taking about how fast it was. It has a bigger cam, bigger heads, etc. When I got it home and got a chance to drive it around, I told him if he though it was fast, he should hop in my Pantera, it would re-define what he thought fast was. I think he took offense to that! LOL
The TA is not that fast but it's a lot of fun. It is our family drive in car and pizza car. Ironically out of 7 cars (one is a truck) the TA is one of 2 automatics. The other automatic is the 76 OLDs (455). The auto is actually a nice break form the other cars; especially my Ford F-350 which is probably got a master Cyl on the way out.
This was my wife's six cylinder car right out of high school. We have had it ever since. We have been working on about three years, I'll be glad when it's done so I can throw away the catalogs, receipt files, shipping docs...lol... I'll be glad when I can drive it, wash it, change the oil...repeat...
My first car was a 68 Firebird 400. It weighed 3200 lbs on truck scales. I had a 75 Trans Am that I bought new. A four speed really perks up that car. It weighed more like 3500 pounds I think.
This bird has a warmed over 427 four bolt w/muncie and fab 9... it should be fun,...
This is a awesome thread! Since old cars to heart has been interjected heres one I still dream about. She sat in a families back yard for a long time. Stopped in one day when Iwas 18 and asked if she was for sale. The lady told me she wasnt sure because her husband was stationed in Korea for the Air Force and she would ask the next time they talked, when she called me a month or so later and said come see me she told me I could have the car for $2000. I said I didnt have $2000 well she goes just pay me something evry month until you pay it off. I said OK and started my installments. Thats when my parents started in on me about some fast car and I went my fathers way and dropped it. But it had a 429 CJ, auto, hideaways, power windows, A/C, deep sump Cobra oil pan (never have seen another one since),shaker, even a rollbar. Just think what that baby is worth now!
At that age, letting a car like that get away will forever haunt you. You will always dream of that car because you dreamed of it at 16.
Do you remember 16? I flew a trip to Cincinnati Saturday. I landed the airplane at lunkin and saw my passengers into their transportation to the evening baseball game. There was a yellow 2 place open cockpit Pitts Biplane. I commented to the line guy that it would be a fun ride. As I came back to the airplane (with nothing to do till the game was over) the guys said "I'll take you up if you want to pay for gas!". HELL YEA I DO! One thing, you can't make me sick. I got to fly these people back tonight!
I had a good time. I did 10 slow rolls in a row trying to get my rudder coordinated. Tons of 1/2 Cubin 8's, 4-point rolls, stall turns, tail slides, and on and on. It was tough though. I had not done that in a long time. I had to keep him toned down a little. We were pulling 4.5-5 G's in every entry of a maneuver. It's been a while since I have done that.
As I come home I think of how much fun it was but that it was not the same as it was when I was 16. At 16 one day I was driving a 1971 4-door Chevy 100+mph down an abandon highway with balled tires and 2 good shocks. I remember the wind and the adrenalin (and the car floating up and down and lane to lane). I remember saying to myself, "what ever this feeling is DON'T EVER LOOSE IT"
I had a ball in the Pitts and would do it again in a heartbeat, but it was not the same feeling I had when I was 16. Maybe it's family, common sense, self preservation, Anyone else ever feel that?
Do you remember 16? I flew a trip to Cincinnati Saturday. I landed the airplane at lunkin and saw my passengers into their transportation to the evening baseball game. There was a yellow 2 place open cockpit Pitts Biplane. I commented to the line guy that it would be a fun ride. As I came back to the airplane (with nothing to do till the game was over) the guys said "I'll take you up if you want to pay for gas!". HELL YEA I DO! One thing, you can't make me sick. I got to fly these people back tonight!
I had a good time. I did 10 slow rolls in a row trying to get my rudder coordinated. Tons of 1/2 Cubin 8's, 4-point rolls, stall turns, tail slides, and on and on. It was tough though. I had not done that in a long time. I had to keep him toned down a little. We were pulling 4.5-5 G's in every entry of a maneuver. It's been a while since I have done that.
As I come home I think of how much fun it was but that it was not the same as it was when I was 16. At 16 one day I was driving a 1971 4-door Chevy 100+mph down an abandon highway with balled tires and 2 good shocks. I remember the wind and the adrenalin (and the car floating up and down and lane to lane). I remember saying to myself, "what ever this feeling is DON'T EVER LOOSE IT"
I had a ball in the Pitts and would do it again in a heartbeat, but it was not the same feeling I had when I was 16. Maybe it's family, common sense, self preservation, Anyone else ever feel that?