1970 Boss 351

Dennis, note they said "Boss 351-C " which as you know is quite different from garden-variety Clevelands factory-installed in every U.S. Pantera, and most Euro Panteras, too. 1971 was also right before the Truth In Advertising laws that drastically lowered published horsepower ratings from mfgrs. DeTomaso was one of the mfgrs that routinely inflated horsepower ratings in all their cars by 10-50%.
All factory Pantera-Clevelands got hydraulic lifter cams, non-adjustable valvetrains, a lower compression ratio and a host of detail differences that cost power. If you indeed have a Boss engine in there, someone changed motors. By late '71, Ford owned DeTomaso outright and simply wouldn't pay for extra-cost Boss engines.... and their warranty!
With deference to HRM, all Cleveland rods were indeed 'forged' but of low-carbon 1041 steel that cannot be heat treated. Boss rods were identical to other Cleveland rods, only being selected by brinnell-impact testing for toughness. Enthusiasts of the day spent literally months and thousands of dollars to bring their engines up to 'advertised' horsepower ratings; I was one and I never did quite achieve the ad-exec's typewriter power levels.

Dennis,

No your push-button doesn't have a Boss 351 motor, it has a 1970 M code motor, which was rated at 300 BHP, but DeTomaso claimed the exhaust system upped the horsepower to 330. There is literature (magazine re-prints) that will back-up that story.

I've seen several push-buttons with alloy intake manifolds too, D1ZZ-9424-G, which was Ford's first alloy intake manifold designed for the 351C and sold over the counter as an aftermarket part.

-G

I expect the stock Cleveland exhaust manifolds are super restrictive compared to the stock Pantera headers.

Mike

> DeTomaso claimed the exhaust system upped the horsepower to 330.

DeTomaso claimed it but the dyno says otherwise. The stock mufflers
lost 50 HP and the Pantera tubing log manifolds (they are noy headers)
are no better than the cast iron exhaust manifolds.

> I expect the stock Cleveland exhaust manifolds are super restrictive
> compared to the stock Pantera headers.

Not the case. Both are quite restrictive.

Torker intake with HVH spacer. Runs nearly identical to with the
4 hole 1 inch. 1 3/4" Hooker long tube headers.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4200 318.8 397.5
4300 325.0 397.7
4400 331.6 395.9
4500 339.4 396.1
4600 349.9 399.2
4700 360.6 402.9
4800 368.0 402.8
4900 372.4 399.5
5000 378.0 397.0
5100 388.6 399.7
5200 397.1 401.1
5300 401.3 398.2
5400 404.9 393.8
5500 409.9 390.9
5600 412.1 386.7
5700 407.9 375.8
5800 401.4 363.8
5900 398.9 355.1
6000 401.3 351.2
6100 407.0 350.2

Repeat of the Torker intake manifold test but with the 1 3/4" diameter long
tube headers and Magnaflow mufflers replaced by the OEM 351C-4V cast iron
exhaust manifolds and a short elbow of pipe (no mufflers). At peak, the
engine was down nearly 30 HP and at 4200 RPM, it was down a whopping
59 HP and over 70 ft-lbs of torque! The engine also sounded rather odd
and the increased back pressure upset the idle quality noticeably. Combine
this test with the muffler test and it's easy to see you can throw away a
bunch of HP on a 351C with a poor exhaust.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4200 259.7 324.9
4300 274.3 334.7
4400 284.8 340.1
4500 294.8 344.0
4600 305.4 348.7
4700 315.1 352.2
4800 330.1 360.6
4900 343.2 368.8
5000 345.5 363.1
5100 354.0 364.2
5200 364.8 368.7
5300 368.6 365.4
5400 377.5 367.0
5500 382.5 365.5
5600 383.0 359.2
5700 384.7 354.4
5800 383.8 347.0
5900 376.6 335.6
6000 369.3 323.2
6100 380.5 328.4

Dan Jones

Thanks Dan. But I don’t understand your numbers. Did you compare the stock headers to the stock manifolds?

Mike

I don't believe DeTomaso's horsepower claims were accurate. Just sales BS. Unless they were referring to DIN measurements as opposed to SAE measurements or some other kind of shenanigans.

If the exhaust back pressure was significantly lower, or if the DeTomaso headers actually scavenged better than the cast iron manifolds, the carburetor would have required re-jetting. This was not the case, Pantera carburetors & Mustang carburetors are interchangeable. Just looking at the DeTomaso headers I can see the primaries and the tailpipes are much too small for a Cleveland. The GTS exhaust system was an honest attempt to build a better exhaust system, but the Ford spec system was all show and no go; I'll bet the exhaust back pressure of the Ford spec Pantera exhaust system was identical to the exhaust back pressure of a Mustang equipped with a 351C 4V. Dan is absolutely right that a good exhaust system can be worth 30 to 50 BHP with a 351C 4V. The 351C 4V is a 520 BHP race motor, those heads were not designed to work well with a restrictive exhaust system.

While we're on the subject of sales BS, the 1970 M code motor was rated at 11.0:1 compression ratio by Ford, but was in reality only 10.0:1

-G

Interesting information! Thanks all!

> Thanks Dan. But I don’t understand your numbers.

The numbers shown are a comparison of headers to exhaust manifolds.

> Did you compare the stock headers to the stock manifolds?

We decided to skip testing the stock Pantera exhaust manifolds.
Given their dimensions and construction we didn't think they
would be much different from the Ford cast iron exhaust manifolds.
Perhaps we should test them for completeness' sake. BTW, they are
not headers as they have no collector. Rather, they are log type
manifolds like the Ford cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Some of the exhaust tests are summarized below.

Dan Jones

351 C Test 12 HVH 1 inch Spacer, CHI 3V heads, Hooker 1 3/4" long
tube headers and Magnaflow mufflers

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3200 222.0 359.8
3300 222.4 354.8
3400 230.3 356.0
3500 240.0 360.3
3600 249.9 364.9
3700 262.0 371.8
3800 277.0 382.4
3900 293.2 394.4
4000 302.8 397.8
4100 315.7 404.3
4200 329.8 412.1
4300 341.1 416.5
4400 349.7 417.9
4500 357.7 417.5
4600 369.2 421.2
4700 377.5 422.1
4800 386.2 422.4
4900 394.5 422.9
5000 401.7 422.1
5100 411.6 423.7
5200 420.5 424.8
5300 428.3 424.6
5400 436.2 423.4
5500 434.2 415.1
5600 431.2 404.6
5700 430.8 396.8
5800 432.4 391.9
5900 433.2 385.7
6000 435.6 381.5
6100 435.1 374.4

We next tried a set of large tube Econo Altered drag headers which have
2 1/8" primaries of around 40 inches length and long 4" diameter collectors.
These were run without mufflers. Our mild street 351C was just not enough
engine to make use of these headers. They lost a whole bunch of torque and
didn't catch up until 6000 RPM. We then tried a set of Pantera 4-into-1
headers (Hedman style with 2V port openings). These have rather short
primaries (between 19" and 24") of 1 3/4" diameter and a tiny collector with
2 1/4" outlet. They lost maybe 15 ft-lbs but closed the gap some as RPM went
up. Overall, I don't think they worked as well on this engine as the Euro
GTS style Pantera headers had on the 408C. Those headers have a 2" primary
with similar short primaries but have a tri-y type collector. It would be
interesting to experiment with a better collector on the Hedman headers to
see what sort of improvement can be made. The stock Pantera ANSA mufflers
were just plain terrible. Just as the Euro GTS mufflers had on the 408C,
the stock Pantera mufflers lost 50 ft-lbs and 50 HP to the 1 3/4" long
tube Hookers with 3" Magnaflows.

351 C Test 13 Dragster Headers
Same as earlier with HVH spacer on CHI single plane intake except now running
a set of dragster open headers with no mufflers. Louder but not really better
and worse through the midrange costing around 20 ft-lbs at 4500rpm. 2 1/8"
primary with a 4 inch collector approx 12 inches long. Primary length is 40
inches.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3200 212.8 350.2
3300 216.4 344.4
3400 220.9 341.1
3500 225.3 338.2
3600 231.0 336.9
3700 239.6 340.3
3800 251.7 347.9
3900 267.9 360.4
4000 283.8 372.5
4100 297.7 381.3
4200 311.1 389.1
4300 321.4 392.7
4400 330.6 394.2
4500 339.2 396.0
4600 350.3 400.1
4700 362.4 404.6
4800 372.0 407.3
4900 380.8 408.3
5000 389.2 408.7
5100 399.5 411.5
5200 409.8 414.0
5300 417.9 414.1
5400 427.6 415.5
5500 430.3 411.1
5600 431.7 404.3
5700 425.3 392.6
5800 426.4 385.9
5900 434.5 386.3
6000 436.9 383.1
6100 431.3 371.3


351 C Test 14 Pantera Headers No Mufflers
Repeat with Pantera headers but no mufflers. Far from ideal exhaust
system. Area under the curve is reduced more than the peaks might
indiciate (compared to long tubes).

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3200 219.8 355.6
3300 221.2 355.7
3400 229.5 354.7
3500 237.1 355.7
3600 244.8 357.1
3700 252.8 358.9
3800 260.8 360.4
3900 267.4 360.3
4000 274.5 360.6
4100 283.2 362.9
4200 292.5 365.7
4300 303.8 370.8
4400 316.7 377.9
4500 327.1 381.9
4600 335.9 383.9
4700 348.8 389.8
4800 366.3 400.4
4900 375.8 403.0
5000 383.5 402.8
5100 388.9 403.5
5200 402.4 407.3
5300 402.3 398.8
5400 410.8 399.2
5500 421.6 401.9
5600 422.3 396.1
5700 421.6 388.7
5800 417.7 378.5
5900 417.5 371.7
6000 419.7 367.3
6100 424.2 364.8


351 C Test 15 Pantera Headers and Exhaust System
Running with the Pantera headers and exhaust system and mufflers.
Terrible torque and horsepower down about 50 ft-lbs and 50 HP.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3200 187.1 306.5
3300 190.4 305.9
3400 203.0 313.2
3500 217.1 325.4
3600 238.1 344.3
3700 247.8 351.5
3800 257.9 356.0
3900 264.3 357.2
4000 271.8 357.6
4100 284.6 362.9
4200 292.4 365.4
4300 296.6 364.2
4400 305.8 364.6
4500 316.8 369.3
4600 326.2 372.2
4700 330.9 369.1
4800 331.2 363.4
4900 333.5 357.7
5000 341.1 358.2
5100 350.3 360.8
5200 361.2 365.0
5300 376.0 371.2
5400 380.2 370.3
5500 377.8 361.8
5600 373.5 349.9
5700 375.4 345.2
5800 377.1 341.8
5900 380.7 338.6
6000 383.8 335.9
6100 380.8 327.9

********************************************************************************
Torker with 1 inch 4 hole spacer
Unported iron 4V heads, Torker intake manifold with 4 hole 1 inch spacer. Carburetor would not fit on this intake without spacer so this is the
baseline for this piece. Going to try HVH spacer next.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4000 312.9 409.3
4100 316.6 406.5
4200 324.3 404.7
4300 332.7 407.4
4400 346.3 410.7
4500 349.2 408.1
4600 354.1 404.4
4700 362.8 405.1
4800 371.3 406.4
4900 375.1 402.2
5000 380.3 399.3
5100 387.9 399.1
5200 394.1 398.1
5300 395.3 391.9
5400 398.6 387.7
5500 401.6 383.4
5600 403.3 378.3
5700 400.8 369.4
5800 401.7 363.7
5900 401.1 357.2
6000 403.1 352.5

Torker intake with HVH spacer.
Runs nearly identical to with the 4 hole 1 inch.
A little better power but a bit worse torque.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
4200 318.8 397.5
4300 325.0 397.7
4400 331.6 395.9
4500 339.4 396.1
4600 349.9 399.2
4700 360.6 402.9
4800 368.0 402.8
4900 372.4 399.5
5000 378.0 397.0
5100 388.6 399.7
5200 397.1 401.1
5300 401.3 398.2
5400 404.9 393.8
5500 409.9 390.9
5600 412.1 386.7
5700 407.9 375.8
5800 401.4 363.8
5900 398.9 355.1
6000 401.3 351.2
6100 407.0 350.2

Baseline with Pantera Headers
Baseline for tonight's testing using Pantera exhaust system. Running with the
4V heads, Torker intake , HVH carb spacer, 950HP carb, 38 degrees total timing,
Euro GTS "tri-y" headers (actually 4-into-1 with a tri-y collector, 2" OD
primaries, 2.25" collector) and Euro-GTS mufflers (small lunchbox size muffler
with dual resonators (per side). Reasonable numbers to about 5500 rpm where
power falls off. Down 38 HP to long tubes and Magnaflows.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3500 208.6 313.2
3600 212.7 310.7
3700 219.9 312.3
3800 230.4 318.0
3900 239.0 322.2
4000 251.5 330.1
4100 267.2 341.8
4200 282.9 353.7
4300 286.5 350.2
4400 296.2 353.2
4500 306.7 358.1
4600 319.3 364.5
4700 325.4 363.8
4800 334.1 365.3
4900 343.4 367.8
5000 345.7 363.5
5100 348.3 358.6
5200 354.0 357.5
5300 360.2 356.9
5400 365.7 355.6
5500 370.7 354.2
5600 371.6 348.4
5700 369.5 340.6
5800 364.8 330.4
5900 360.9 321.2
6000 356.6 312.2
6100 353.1 304.4

Pantera Headers Test 2
Modified mufflers on the GTS headers.
Same as Test 1 with Mike Drew's modified GTS mufflers. The GTS muffler
baffles were removed and replaced by a Y-pipe. The pipe was perforated
and muffler body packed with steel wool. Mufflers sounded better
(slightly more whistle to the tone) and peak power was up 13 HP with
torque was up around 10 ft-lbs over a fairly wide RPM range so this was
a meaningful modification but still leaves a lot of power on the table. Interestingly, the Euro GTS headers plus modified mufflers makes around
the same power as our previous test with OEM cast iron 4V manifolds
without mufflers.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3500 215.5 321.1
3600 219.8 322.9
3700 226.0 320.6
3800 231.9 320.7
3900 241.4 325.3
4000 254.1 333.6
4100 268.9 344.2
4200 283.6 354.3
4300 295.3 360.5
4400 305.1 364.1
4500 314.8 367.3
4600 322.7 368.6
4700 334.8 374.2
4800 344.5 376.7
4900 350.8 376.3
5000 353.2 371.1
5100 357.3 367.7
5200 364.4 368.7
5300 364.2 361.1
5400 370.9 360.5
5500 381.7 364.0
5600 384.5 360.5
5700 380.6 350.9
5800 374.9 339.7
5900 369.8 329.2
6000 366.7 320.8
6100 369.5 317.6

Pantera Header Test 3
Running with the Pantera header and the Magna Flows clamped
to the header via a 3 inch by 12 pipe. Same as Test 1 but
with 3" inlet/outlet Magnaflow mufflers clamped to the Pantera
Euro GTS headers via a 3" diameter by 12" long pipe. Good solid
power gain over baseline and modified exhaust system.

RPM HP Torque (ft-lb)
3500 223.1 333.8
3600 226.5 330.8
3700 230.9 328.0
3800 240.6 332.5
3900 252.0 339.4
4000 264.7 347.6
4100 278.9 357.3
4200 295.1 368.8
4300 314.0 382.5
4400 324.8 387.9
4500 330.1 385.8
4600 339.4 387.3
4700 352.4 393.2
4800 363.9 398.3
4900 369.2 395.9
5000 374.3 393.3
5100 378.8 390.2
5200 383.8 387.8
5300 391.1 387.6
5400 400.1 389.0
5500 407.0 388.0
5600 405.0 380.4
5700 402.2 370.4
5800 400.2 362.4
5900 400.4 356.2
6000 399.1 349.7
6100 399.2 344.8

quote:

351 C Test 12 HVH 1 inch Spacer, CHI 3V heads, Hooker 1 3/4" long
tube headers and Magnaflow mufflers

Hey Dan, what size collectors with this set-up?
WIll

Thanks for the clarification Dan. I know from my work on cutting out the end cap and baffles in my stock non-GTS ANSA mufflers that they are very restrictive. I have Hall headers and the modified ANSA mufflers, and from the seat of the pants feel, cutting out the mufflers made a difference.

Mike

They are Hooker Competition headers, 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries,
3" diameter by 8" long collector (probably part number HOK-6920HKR), though
Dave's notes has the primaries slightly longer. I'll have to double check
the length. I suspect, we can get by with a smaller collector but have not
tested this theory. Peak power may go down a bit but it's the area under
the curve between shift points that matters. I'll run a parametric in
Dynomation and see what that predicts.

Dan Jones

Being of grey hair etc. and being an engineer ...

I remember those "Muscle Car" days with the engine ratings quite well.

Before 1972, most American engines were rated using Society of American Engineers (SAE) standards J245 and J1995, which calculated the output of a 'bare' engine on a test stand with no accessories, optimal ignition timing, free-flowing exhaust headers (no mufflers), with a correction factor for standard atmospheric conditions. That is to say SAE "Gross".

Starting in 1971, manufacturers adopted the SAE net rating methodology, described by SAE standard J1349. "Net" horsepower ratings are still made with the engine on a test stand, but with stock ignition timing, carburetion, exhaust, and accessories -- in short, a closer approximation of how much power an engine produces as actually installed in the car.

The result of the new rating system was a dramatic drop in advertised power for the same engine type.

So, those 1971, and early 1972 stock engines NEVER really made the practical power claimed. Also, it is inaccurate to compare them to the 1973 an 1974 engines based on advertised HP.

As stated earlier in this post, DeTomaso, as well as Ferrari, Maserati et al. were notorious for inflating the power their cars made in the day (70's).

I strongly doubt any of the stock 351C engines made over 300hp SAE NET in our DeTomasos ... even with an Edelbrock dual plane intake manifold, Holley carb, and headers.

The bottom line is ... Enjoy the the car! It handles and accelerates fantastically. And remember, all things being equal, HP is for top speed ... How many of us have driven our cars at over 120 mph or ever will ? So, go ahead and claim what ever HP number makes you feel good. ... Hell, my 1974 modified 351C (quench head, suck and blow mods) made 350hp !!! It doesn't matter if its true ... Its a number that makes me feel good.

B.G.

P.S. Today's engines generate the horsepower advertised. You can count on it. Otherwise, the manufacturers get slapped with a lawsuit ... Ford knows this all too well. When 1999 Mustang Cobra (4.6 DOHC) owners found out that their engines did not make the 320 hp advertised, but, in fact, made less that the 1998 Cobra (4.6 DOHC - Teksid 310hp) engines. The result of the lawsuit was no 2000 4.6 DOHC Cobra and additional modifications to obtain the HP claimed.

> So, those 1971, and early 1972 stock engines NEVER really made the practical power
> claimed.

While most did not, a few of the engines actually did make the power advertised.
Two examples being the 428CJ and Boss 351. For insurance and drag racing reasons,
those two engines were deliberately under-rated. Ford had three dyno set-ups.
The 'Engineering A-curve' power was the maximum output you could get of an engine
with looser clearances and dynamometer headers. Then there was the B-Curve, which
was the engine with no accessories. The C-curve included backpressure and everything
else as installed in the car. Starting with the 428 Cobra Jet, Ford advertising
the B-Curve power rather than the Engineering A-Curve. The 428CJ was capable of
approximately 400 HP (A-Curve), 325-335 HP (B-Curve), and 310-320 HP (C-Curve).
The NHRA and others immediately factored the engine for match racing. NHRA
re-factored the 428CJ to 400 HP. They also re-factored the Boss 351 though I'm
not sure what the number was back in the day (it's factored to 355 HP now but those
numbers change over time to keep things competitive).

Dan Jones

The Hot Rod Magazine dyno showed 383hp@6100 and 391lb-ft@4000 on their recreation motor.

Good points Daniel_Jones,

There were some engines that were "de-rated" for a number of reasons.

I was primarily addressing the 351C that was installed our DeTomasos.

The 351C Boss was a great race engine.

Custom built engines can produce more horsepower and torque that the stock factory builds. There is a price to pay though ... It is usually reliability.

Most DeTomaso Pantera owners will change the cast iron intake manifold and carburator as well as the exhaust headers as minimum mods. I personally doubt that my engine, even with those changes as well as a quench head change and made over 300hp SAE NET.

quote:

Originally posted by andriyko:
Most DeTomaso Pantera owners will change the cast iron intake manifold and carburator as well as the exhaust headers as minimum mods. I personally doubt that my engine, even with those changes as well as a quench head change and made over 300hp SAE NET.

Ford's own contractor, AK Miller, took a 1970 M code 351C right out of the crate, broke it in, and ran it on the dyno. The results were reported in Hot Rod Magazine in 1970.

I would assume the only accessory running off the crank was the water pump, and the article didn't specify what exhaust system was used. Judging from the numbers reported I would guess the motor was most likely exhausting into cast iron manifolds.

The results: a possibly honest 288 horsepower at 5200 rpm. I say possibly honest because the motor was rated at 300 horsepower. The torque peaked at 338 ft/lbs at 3400 rpm and valve float set in at 5600 rpm.
___________________________________

An engine similar to the Boss 351 was installed in Australia's most famous muscle car, the XY Falcon GT-HO Phase 3, it differed from the US M code version by use of the 1970 Boss 302 Holley carb #D0ZF-9510-Z bolted to the 4 hole iron intake manifold with a 4 hole spacer, and a set of long tube tri-Y headers manufactured by an Australian contractor with the initials H&M. That motor made 370 to 380 gross horsepower.
_____________________________________

I built a bunch of 351C motors in the late 1970s and 1980s to a formula inspired by Ford. The motors had quench heads (D0AE or D1AE castings), flat top pistons, set for 10:1 static compression. D1ZZ-6250-BX hydraulic flat tappet camshafts (290/290 duration, 0.505/0.505 lift). Some equipped with 4300D carbs modified by a carb shop I frequented in Long Beach, some equipped with over the counter 780 Holleys from Ford. The motors had to be capable of passing an emissions inspection and a tail pipe emissions test. The smog stations could be picky about using factory carburetors, but headers didn't raise an eyebrow, so the motors were equipped with headers, 2 1/2" tail pipes and my favorite Cadillac mufflers. I also upgraded them to various breakerless ignitions (Duraspark I ignitions in the 1980s). Those motors repeatedly made 280/305 horsepower on the chassis dyno (350/380 horsepower at the crank) depending upon the carb & manifold I used. With head porting they would return another 20 bhp. Those were good numbers in that era considering I was using almost 100% Ford parts, hydraulic valve train and the motors were capable of passing a tail pipe emissions test. They were also 100% reliable, maintenance free BD.

-G

I've seen a lot of discussion on headers and mufflers and their various flaws. Here's a straightforward question:

For a 351C street Pantera with HP between 350 and 500 with reasonable noise reduction, who makes the best header, and what is the best muffler.

Thanks, Mooso.

Gary Hall made a decision when he drew up his Big bore headers, he made the header flange capable of bolting up to the OEM 2" tail pipes. Bad decision. Its kind of wonky to name a header "Big Bore" when it's outlet is squeezed down to only 2 inches in diameter. That's why the Big Bore headers are NOT recommended. In fact, of the headers I am familiar with, the only ones I don't recommend are the Ford spec exhaust headers found in US Panteras and the Big Bores, because both are desinged for 2 inch tail pipes.

Hall Pantera also sells the GTS headers, they are a good design for 4V heads. They have the large 2" primaries Ford recommended for the Cleveland, which leads me to believe that Ford engineers probably desinged them for DeTomaso. They are a truncated tri-Y design, which also reflects Ford thinking for that era. (The Austrailian XY Falcon GT-HO Phase 3 also had factory equipped tri-Y headers). They have no collector, but they mate up with 2 3/8" tail pipes and work reasonably well for a street car. Of course, as Dan Jones will point out, the mufflers leave quite a bit of horsepower on the table, but for a relatively inexpensive system that can be bolted on in an afternoon, and is reasonably quiet, they are a good value. If an owner decides he wants more horsepower later on its only a pair of mufflers away.

The PI Motorsport Big Throat headers are the decendants of the Mind Train headers. The Mind Train exhaust system was held in very high regard during the earlier years of the Pantera hobby, and even today when a set goes up for sale guys scramble to buy them. The Big Throats are a good design too. However, PI Motorsports doesn't sell a tail pipe to compliment their headers, you gotta roll your own.

I know the Byars sell GTS headers, most likely sourced from Hall Pantera. I'm not familiar enough with Larry Stock's headers to comment, but I know he has his own line of headers. Knowing Larry I'm sure they work well. I'm not even sure what Dennis Quella, Marino Perna or Steve Wilkinson sell. Other guys can comment and fill in my ignorance on the subject.

That leaves us with Pat Mical's headers. If you can afford them, they are the best; both in design, materials and craftsmanship. The problem with the Pantera exhaust system is that there just isn't much room for one! Most header designs try to fit every inch of primary tube possible in the engine bay leaving no room for a collector. That is a bad decision, according to Mr Jones a collector of proper diameter and adequate length is considered more important than a few extra inches of primary tube. This is where Pat Mical's headers differ from the others, Pat's headers have a good collector design.

Word on the street is that MagnaFlow mufflers flow very well, afterall there are no baffles in a MagnaFlow muffler, its just an empty can lined with sound deadening material. They are made with heavy gage stainless steel, welded & polished, and the sound is mellow compared to other choices. The drawback is they don't make a muffler short enough for a Pantera, so you're left with two choices, having a muffler sticking out behind your car or cutting, shortening and rewelding a pair of their mufflers to fit.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:

That leaves us with Pat Mical's headers. If you can afford them, they are the best; both in design, materials and craftsmanship. The problem with the Pantera exhaust system is that there just isn't much room for one! Most header designs try to fit every inch of primary tube possible in the engine bay leaving no room for a collector. That is a bad decision, according to Mr Jones a collector of proper diameter and adequate length is considered more important than a few extra inches of primary tube. This is where Pat Mical's headers differ from the others, Pat's headers have a good collector design.

-G

George originally referenced Pat Mical to me and after some searching landed on www.patsauto.com. Website isn't that informative, but calling his is worth the time. You can use my name if you like.

His headers are fabulous. When he had my car, I sent him some early NOS Pantera mufflers I'd found. He mated the larger tailpipes to them. Wonderful sounds and what we 'estimate' was another 30+hp from my 74.

George, there are short MagnaFlow mufflers that come in 2.5" and 3" center inlet with 2.5" dual outlets....the body of the muffler is 14" long, 5" thick and 8" wide with an oval shape. $85 per, Magnaflow part # 12198, unpolished stainless steel. They also have a polished version.

This is the one I was looking at...$60
PART #:13288
DESCRIPTION:
Inlet/Outlet Size: 3in./2.5in.
Body Shape: 4in.x9in. Oval
Core Size: Single 3in./Dual 2.5in.
Body Length: 14in.

The one above is just wider and flatter than the first one.

I think I have the Hall Big Bores, my collector may have to be modified from a 2.5" crimped down neck near the collector end to a 3" so the there is no bottle neck. I should be able to run 3" from the header collector to the 3" MagnaFlow muffler inlet.

http://www.magnaflow.com/02pro...ffler.asp?shape=oval

There are many other mufflers available from Magnaflow...you just have to go through the site one by one and find what you want.

George, do you know if any Australian made headers fit the Pantera.

I'm not aware of any.

That would be a question best answered by Laslo or Joe Nardo.