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Aluminum block

G Guest
Next year I'll be rebuilding my engine.

Money won't be too much of an issue, so I can afford to dream a little here.

I already have my engine, which upon confirmation of the parts being good, I could transfer to an aluminum block, and make a dream engine.

I have C3L heads, EFI with Hillborn style velocity stacks (I don't know the brand). The heads I'll send out and have redone so they're like new.

Is this a reasonable possibility?

Is there anything about the parts I have that won't switch into an aluminum block?

I figure, if I'm going to be rebuilding everything, and it's not too hard of switch to aluminum, I might be able to swing the extra cheddar to go with the aluminum block while I'm going for it.

I briefly looked, and aluminum blocks are around 5-6K.

Would it be as easy as just adding that number to the build?
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R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:
Next year I'll be rebuilding my engine.

Money won't be too much of an issue, so I can afford to dream a little here.

I already have my engine, which upon confirmation of the parts being good, I could transfer to an aluminum block, and make a dream engine.

I have C3L heads, EFI with Hillborn style velocity stacks (I don't know the brand). The heads I'll send out and have redone so they're like new.

Is this a reasonable possibility?

Is there anything about the parts I have that won't switch into an aluminum block?

I figure, if I'm going to be rebuilding everything, and it's not too hard of switch to aluminum, I might be able to swing the extra cheddar to go with the aluminum block while I'm going for it.

I briefly looked, and aluminum blocks are around 5-6K.

Would it be as easy as just adding that number to the build?
First item/s that come to mind are your current pistons.

Your new block will be a standard bore & your current pistons are for an oversized bore.

You want to maintain as MUCH cylinder wall thickness as possible, thus the reasoning behind having to buy standard bore NEW pistons.

Dependent upon how much your old engine block was decked along with possibly the cylinder heads, push rod length might be an issue.

Wear on your lifters & camshaft might require new lifters & camshaft.

Are you looking to decrease or increase your current HP rating?!

Might a less AGGRESSIVE camshaft profile & related HIGH valve spring pressure add to a NEW engine's longevity?!

Are you counting on a 7/11 Instant Scratcher for your upcoming new found wealth?!

Did Pantera Doug promise to leave you in his will?!

Are you marrying a Main Land China women & getting paid for her U.S. citizenship?!

Does she have a sister?!...Mark
MT mike the snake (Guest)
To my knowledge it's a cleveland block, with what I think is the Scat 408 stroker kit.


I'm only assuming, maybe I can get in touch with the builder of this engine somehow. The PO is of no help any more.

I'd be fine with getting new pistons. I expect to have the crank polished or ground, rods rebuilt, new rod bolts probably, new cam (probably go with hydraulic roller) and new lifters, valvetrain i just had rebuilt so it should still be OK unless this engine eats something..

I want to build a new engine with similar HP, but if I have to sacrifice a few HP for longetivity I'll gladly do so.

My present innards are nice I believe, worth rebuilding and reusing, so the block would be the main expense. The C3L heads are "tall" heads, and I'd plan on just refreshing them back to new-ish (whatever it takes). I'd like to keep the dimensions the same as before.

I'll reuse the injection, and use modern ECU and electronics.

I do NOT need to spin to 8000 like this engine was regularly. I want to build a gnarly street engine a little less "on the edge"-ness, maybe something with a more lopey idle (although I hear the injection smooths the idle out).

I'm just dreaming here, the engine will be getting rebuilt, by who I do not know.

It would be nice to send it off and have it built and dynoed and sent back, ready to drop in the car.
The block material is up in the air, if I want to I can get the aluminum one. I just want to make sure I get a solid, reliable street/track motor that will hold up, especially if I don't abuse it.

What do you think I'm looking at cost-wise for the rebuild? That may determine the material of the block lol.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by David_Nunn:
Mike,

Aluminum blocks don't have problems with cylinder wall thickness, like 351C blocks do, because they use iron cylinder sleeves. Just order your new aluminum block with the cylinders bored to fit your pistons. I ordered my Fontana aluminum block with a 4.125" bore but I could have gone up to 4.180".
Mike's engine is stroked to 408 cubic inches & was purposely built to rev to 8,000 rpms.

Stroked engines are famous for cylinder wall thrust wear in conjunction with piston thrust side wear only exacerbated by 8,000 rpm revving.

I would bet 7/2 that Mike's current piston's will show "out of round" wear beyond tolerable/allowable specifications...Mark
panteradougpanteradougMember
You can also sleeve out your existing block. Any way you look at it, that is still cheaper than a $5000 aluminum block.

The main advantage to the aluminum is it is about 100# lighter.

If you were building a competative race car that should be a consideration but on a street car that is just fancy eye candy.

Also, I would prefer to keep the stock stroke and bore configuration. To me it keeps the engine in the "sporty reving" category rather than the "spin the tires anytime" category like a big old Thunderbird that makes a lot of noise and smoke but doesn't go anywhere.

Many of the Ford 427 blocks are being sleeved in all 8 to keep the engine stock bore.

If you want to pay for an all aluminum Shelby block with his logo all over the place that is your perogative but a Pantera is like a Cobra in that sense, you don't need more torque in the car, you can't get it to hook up with stock displacement. Why do you need more?

Are you just going to make videos for the 15 year old on the block that go "wow, look at all that smoke and how the car goes in circles"?
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
You can also sleeve out your existing block. Any way you look at it, that is still cheaper than a $5000 aluminum block.

The main advantage to the aluminum is it is about 100# lighter.

If you were building a competitive race car that should be a consideration but on a street car that is just fancy eye candy.


To get the bling AND save a lot of money, just paint your original block with "aluminum" paint. Just be sure to grind off the rough casting flash on the exterior of that Cleveland block first. Perfect for a street car!

And for an engine that never leaks oil, paint the block black. Big Grin
italforditalfordMember
I stuck with the stock crank and rods thereby its still a 351c. The car is light and IMO dosen't need the added torque at low end. It revs really quick and tends not to loose traction all that much. Makes for a really fun, safe and fast ride.

On the other hand my 67 fastback has a 432w that is pretty much unsafe. With its prior engine (347) it was fun and fast and still had traction. Now with the 432w it has no traction. It's lots of fun but I have to be really careful not to loose it at times.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by ZR1 Pantera:
You guys are sounding old...

Bigger is better, always was, always will be!!!

MORE POWER - MORE POWER - NEVER ENOUGH

Sympathy
HEY!!!!...Just because I was at the beach clamming the day that Moses parted the Red Sea, DOESN'T make me old!!!

Spartacus once told me...."The gladiator with the most horses doesn't always go around the Coliseum the fastest".

Truer words have NEVER been spoken!!! Bravo Bravo Bravo
MT mike the snake (Guest)
New pistons are a given. If the block hasn't been bored to death, I'll hopefully be able to "budget" rebuild this engine.

I'm ready to do whatever it takes, new pistons, rebuild the rods and crank, new cam,lifters, valvetrain is new, have the heads redone, newer electronics, this should net me a nice rebuilt engine I can keep, or sell in good conscience.

The components that the engine consists of are top shelf, so it's just a matter of making it all right.

If all this doesn't cost TOOOO much, then I was playing around with the aluminum block idea, just for fun.

I'd love to send the motor out to a builder and just get it back all ready to go, dynoed, ready to install, electronics and all.

What do you think I'm looking at, 20K? I've been told just the electronics and install and tune are around 8.

I realize at this price range there's other options as well, like a crate engine. Decisions, decisions.

Another option is sell for a loss and just get a different car too.

Please excuse me, I'm just thinking out loud online.

I own one BADA$$ Pantera, it IS super nice, it's just got an engine and issues that have me depressed, not being able to drive the car, after dropping my life savings on it.

I'll get over it, I'll fix it up, it'll be the car I originally THOUGHT I was buying eventually.
zr1panterazr1panteraForum Sponsor - SACC Restorations
If you want an everyday driver that you feel comfortable in and can drive across the US tomorrow, a crate engine is hard to beat.

I have gone both directions, a fully sound 351C and 2 crate motors. I love the crate motors but that is just me. Others love the 351C. But for dependability and peace of mind, the crate motor can't be beat, IMO...
ausfordausfordMember
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:
New pistons are a given. If the block hasn't been bored to death, I'll hopefully be able to "budget" rebuild this engine.

I'm ready to do whatever it takes, new pistons, rebuild the rods and crank, new cam,lifters, valvetrain is new, have the heads redone, newer electronics, this should net me a nice rebuilt engine I can keep, or sell in good conscience.

The components that the engine consists of are top shelf, so it's just a matter of making it all right.

If all this doesn't cost TOOOO much, then I was playing around with the aluminum block idea, just for fun.

I'd love to send the motor out to a builder and just get it back all ready to go, dynoed, ready to install, electronics and all.

What do you think I'm looking at, 20K? I've been told just the electronics and install and tune are around 8.

I realize at this price range there's other options as well, like a crate engine. Decisions, decisions.

Another option is sell for a loss and just get a different car too.

Please excuse me, I'm just thinking out loud online.

I own one BADA$$ Pantera, it IS super nice, it's just got an engine and issues that have me depressed, not being able to drive the car, after dropping my life savings on it.

I'll get over it, I'll fix it up, it'll be the car I originally THOUGHT I was buying eventually.


Mike, you need to get your thoughts sorted out.

In one sentence you are talking of budget rebuild and in the next about alloy blocks, next you mention not spending too much and then spending 8 k on electronics which frankly you don't need. Sort out a plan on paper with a budget and stick to it or you are going to spend tons of money in a ongoing merry go round.
Last edited by George P
MT mike the snake (Guest)
It's got a newly found leaking fuel rail, and the throttle is now sticking.

These are small issues, but kind of the straws that are breaking my camel's back. There's a number of other small issues I haven't mentioned too.

Once those smaller issues are dealt with, I still have the bigger issues of tune (even with my present equipment the car will need to go to someone who can 1, tune with my ancient Haltech, and 2, tune my car), and eventual rebuild to address.

When the rebuild time comes, the 8K was what I was quoted to install newer electronics and getting it installed and tuned.

You are correct in that I DO need to get my thoughts in order, and as I said, please excuse me, I was just thinking outloud online.
ausfordausfordMember
Your ancient Haltec is totally modern compared to the fuel injection controller I use which doesn't even have a processor.

If they are telling you they can't tune your Haltec because they need a computer that runs MS DOS they either don't know what they are doing or they are telling you BS.

All computers that run Windows in any form eg: XP, windows 7, windows 8/9 or whatever the latest windows is, run MS DOS underneath the main operating system. It is called command prompt. It can be accessed by clicking RUN and typing cmd.

Leaky fuel rails and sticky throttles are everyday stuff, I had a leaking fuel line the other day. Fix it, get over it.

Work out what it is your car really needs and then the things you just want. They are two different things.

The things you just want are likely to cost you a fortune and not provide you with value for money if your intention is to get the car going and have it be reliable.
Last edited by ausford
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Aus Ford:
Your ancient Haltec is totally modern compared to the fuel injection controller I use which doesn't even have a processor.

If they are telling you they can't tune your Haltec because they need a computer that runs MS DOS they either don't know what they are doing or they are telling you BS.

All computers that run Windows in any form eg: XP, windows 7, windows 8/9 or whatever the latest windows is run MS DOS underneath the main operating system. It is called command prompt. It can't be accessed by clicking RUN and typing cmd.

Leaky fuel rails and sticky throttles are everyday stuff, I had a leaking fuel line the other day. Fix it, get over it.

Work out what it is your car really needs and then the things you just want. They are two different things.

The things you just want are likely to cost you a fortune and not provide you with value for money if your intention is to get the car going and have it be reliable.


Correct AND it will be a never ending circle of chasing "upgrades" that never end, just like computer operating system uprgrades never end.

You already have a system that works. Upgrading the cpu will not make it run better.

IR systems, whether they are carburetored or fuel injected are always going to be on the rich side at idle.

That isn't the system, that is the requirement of the engine to make it idle without lean backfire through the intake manifold.

If you choose to go that route, chasing a rainbow to the pot of gold, you will never quite get there, because it doesn't exist.

Trying to eliminate the fat idle will burn your valves and could get lean enough to melt the pistons.

Don't even go there. You are chasing a figment of someone else's imagination.

"We serve the same Master. He is a lunatic and is ungrateful". Pick another issue to deal with. One that really exists.
MT mike the snake (Guest)
Thanks guys, I was having a bad day. You are all correct.

my issues are minor.

I have yet to ask anyone about actually tuning the car. I saw the floppy discs, asked a few questions about what's needed to tune the car, and then I've been chasing all the small issues since, so I was just venting and dreaming at the same time yesterday.
I've spent so much money and had so little driving time on the car, it just got to me and I had a lapse of sanity.

I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block, time will tell. Actually, my wallet will tell.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:
Thanks guys, I was having a bad day. You are all correct.

my issues are minor.

I have yet to ask anyone about actually tuning the car. I saw the floppy discs, asked a few questions about what's needed to tune the car, and then I've been chasing all the small issues since, so I was just venting and dreaming at the same time yesterday.
I've spent so much money and had so little driving time on the car, it just got to me and I had a lapse of sanity.

I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block, time will tell. Actually, my wallet will tell.


Driving the car is very much like equating to sex.

You must evolve past the mere physical part and learn to just enjoy just the pure thought through endorphins.

Then you have evolved into a superior being.

If you have memory issues and can't remember then hopefully you can still be creative? Wink
rockyrockyMember
Mike -

Just do it!

AFAIK - You have two issues. A leaky fuel rail, and a throttle cable that sticks near idle.

Go to Ace right now with your O Rings. You can have that problem fixed by noon.

The throttle cable will take a little longer. If it's not unsafe, then take your car out.

"'Better' is the enemy of 'Good Enough'".

Look at BDUD. A catastrophic engine failure about 4 weeks ago, I expect to see him back on the road about two weeks from now.

And BDUD only has one thread, with a series of posts providing his diagnosis, his path forward and his results.

Good Luck -

Rocky
Last edited by rocky
rockyrockyMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

If you have memory issues and can't remember then hopefully you can still be creative? Wink


Doug - I hated that movie..... "Memento" - where the guy had no short term memory.

I don't want to see MtS all tatted up with info about his car....

The worst part (spoiler alert) was the end when you figured out that everything you thought you knew was wrong, and there was no hope in ever solving the mystery.

Just Sayin'
Last edited by rocky
MT mike the snake (Guest)
You are correct, presently I do just have those two issues. There's others but I haven't started threads about them.

I don't mean to splatter the forum with my problems, I was just starting threads in what I thought were the appropriate sections for the issues I was having.

Everyone also has their own "internet Style". I try to be as neutral as I can and try never to never demean, and always try to help with information I have if I can.

When I have problems, I reach out, I research, I ask (even if sometimes they're dumb or repetitive questions) but I learn, and grow.

This forum is the best forum I've participated in by far.

Thanks everyone for the help, and for tolerating my "style".



quote:
Originally posted by Rocky:
Mike -

Just do it!

AFAIK - You have two issues. A leaky fuel rail, and a throttle cable that sticks near idle.

Go to Ace right now with your O Rings. You can have that problem fixed by noon.

The throttle cable will take a little longer. If it's not unsafe, then take your car out.

"Better is the enemy of 'Good Enough'".

Look at BDUD. A catastrophic engine failure about 4 weeks ago, I expect to see him back on the road about two weeks from now.

And only one thread, with a series of posts providing the diagnosis, path forward and results.

Good Luck -

Rocky
ausfordausfordMember
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:

I've spent so much money and had so little driving time on the car, it just got to me and I had a lapse of sanity.

I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block, time will tell. Actually, my wallet will tell.



Again Mike i respectfully point out you are having contradictory thoughts.

"I've spent so much money and had so little driving time"....."I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block"



If you pull the engine out to "rebuild" it and get a aluminium block you will incur even more great expense and have even less driving time.

Do you really need to rebuild this engine ?

Does it have no oil pressure ?

Does it have 30 psi compression in one cylinder and 180 psi in the rest ?

Are the cylinders so worn the pistons rattle like two skeletons fornicating on a tin roof ?

Why does the engine need rebuilding ? To give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, it will cost you lots of money for that small pleasure.



What you need to do is throw those silly aluminium rocker arms in the bin and get steel rocker arms.

I don't care if the manufacturer "refurbished" them by annealing them or bouncing gamma rays off them or by the use of some voo doo black magic, you can not escape the fact they are aluminium and one of the properties of aluminium and its alloys are that it work hardens.

Once it work hardens it will become brittle and break as has happened numerous times allready.

This is not a matter of valve springs not controlling the valve movement properly it is pure and simple metal fatigue. You don't have a valve spring breakage problem you have a rocker arm breakage problem due to the fact in your engine the metal of the rocker arms is being worked thousands of times a minute buy a extra high lift cam and extra strong valve springs.

Aluminium rockers belong in race cars where they are thrown away after every race and new ones fitted and they don't care about the cost because the sponsors pay for it anyway, they do not belong in your engine.

You WILL have another rocker arm failure and all the unpleasant stuffing around that goes with it, it will also happen at the most inconvenient time and place possible, you can bet on it.

I predict you will have another rocker arm failure within 6000 miles (if you drive that far).

Get steel rocker arms, yes i know they will be expensive but you need them,
they will be a lot cheaper than a alloy block (which you don't need) or a rebuild (which you don't need) or $8000.00 worth of electronics (which you don't need).


You may need a computer with a floppy disk drive, get on to Ebay and buy a old IBM laptop like a G40. It will cost $150 bucks and you can use your floppy discs to tune your injection.


It is cool to dream but as i've said sort your "wants" from "needs" and work out the cost vs benefit vs time off the road.
Last edited by ausford
MT mike the snake (Guest)
Thanks for the advice.

Too much idle time has me thinking in too many directions.

The motor as it sits now, I think there might be an issue with number 1 as the plug blackens much more quickly. Haven't done a compression test. The idle sounds a little funny, but I've been told that's the injection. Other than that, it runs pretty darn good.

My main resoning for "needing" the rebuild is just the knowledge of what I know of it's history, and the knowledge of lots of steel bits having gone through the engine. It just seems to me if I'm going top keep the car for a long time, or even sell it, it's going to need an engine without issues like this one has endured.

The aluminum block thinking is just me dreaming out loud, and in all probabilities won't happen.

You are correct, I am a bit scrambled in my thinking. Again, thanks to everyone for tolerating my "style", I've just found myself in a position I never expected, having trouble dealing with it.

I appreciate everyone's help. After I deal with these minor issues I'll look into finding the right computer and deal with the tune.

Even without the tune, the car runs well and I'll be back driving it, then I think I'll get my sanity back.

I've worked on the car til my health stops me. Still recovering from open heart surgery, and these cars are just so darn hard to work on!

I'll get things straightened out and try not to waist anyone's time in the process.

I really do appreciate the advice and knowledge given to me from this forum.





quote:
Originally posted by Aus Ford:
quote:
Originally posted by mike the snake:

I've spent so much money and had so little driving time on the car, it just got to me and I had a lapse of sanity.

I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block, time will tell. Actually, my wallet will tell.



Again Mike i respectfully point out you are having contradictory thoughts.

"I've spent so much money and had so little driving time"....."I WILL rebuild the engine next year, and it Still may get an aluminum block"



If you pull the engine out to "rebuild" it and get a aluminium block you will incur even more great expense and have even less driving time.

Do you really need to rebuild this engine ?

Does it have no oil pressure ?

Does it have 30 psi compression in one cylinder and 180 psi in the rest ?

Are the cylinders so worn the pistons rattle like two skeletons fornicating on a tin roof ?

Why does the engine need rebuilding ? To give you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, it will cost you lots of money for that small pleasure.



What you need to do is throw those silly aluminium rocker arms in the bin and get steel rocker arms.

I don't care if the manufacturer "refurbished" them by annealing them or bouncing gamma rays off them or by the use of some voo doo black magic, you can not escape the fact they are aluminium and one of the properties of aluminium and its alloys are that it work hardens.

Once it work hardens it will become brittle and break as has happened numerous times allready.

This is not a matter of valve springs not controlling the valve movement properly it is pure and simple metal fatigue. You don't have a valve spring breakage problem you have a rocker arm breakage problem due to the fact in your engine the metal of the rocker arms is being worked thousands on times a minute buy a extra high lift cam and extra strong valve springs.

Aluminium rockers belong in race cars where they are thrown away after every race and new ones fitted and they don't care about the cost because the sponsors pay for it anyway, they do not belong in your engine.

You WILL have another rocker arm failure and all the unpleasant stuffing around that goes with it, it will also happen at the most inconvenient time and place possible, you can bet on it.

I predict you will have another rocker arm failure within 6000 miles (if you drive that far).

Get steel rocker arms, yes i know they will be expensive but you need them,
they will be a lot cheaper than a alloy block (which you don't need) or a rebuild (which you don't need) or $80000.00 worth of electronics (which you don't need).


You may need a computer with a floppy disk drive, get on to Ebay and buy a old IBM laptop like a G40. It will cost $150 bucks and you can use your floppy discs to tune your injection.


It is cool to dream but as i've said sort your "wants" from "needs" and work out the cost vs benefit vs time off the road.

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