Hello All,
I've found a source for Aussie blocks and I'm wondering,does anyone KNOW if they are a heavier/thicker casting?
I've heard yes,no, and everything in between.BTW they are not inexpensive.
Thanks, Guy
Original Post
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Yes!! They are thicker in the Main Web area. And thicker in the oil pan rails. They also have a higher Nickle content to the cast Iron. And I believe they are either "siamesed" bores, or are just thicker at the bore walls(I could be wrong here!) And yes! more iron means more weight! I do not know exactly how much more weight. Regards, Marlin.
[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 09-17-2002).]
[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 09-17-2002).]
I suggest you be real carefull about Aussie blocks. There appear to be standard weight blocks, and heavy blocks like Marlin mentioned. Lately, there have been ebay adds for Aussie blocks, where the seller claims they are made from stronger iron. I have no idea if there is any truth to that claim. I assume that because the seller claims the material is better, they are probably not the heavier blocks that are definitely desirable.
I also talked to an Aussie, and he said the "real" Aussie blocks are hard to find and expensive in Australia, so I wouldn't expect someone to ship them here to sell for less than they sell for there.
I also talked to an Aussie, and he said the "real" Aussie blocks are hard to find and expensive in Australia, so I wouldn't expect someone to ship them here to sell for less than they sell for there.
There are multiple Aussie blocks. Only a few are the 4-bolt main, thick
wall, variety. A batch of maybe a few hundred XE-192540 blocks were cast
specifically for racing back before the Motorsport blocks were available.
These are the thick race blocks. A real XE-192540 blocks weighs
considerably more than a standard Cleveland block, has thicker cylinder
walls, unsculpted pan rails, and beefier 4 bolt main caps. I've had one
of the 2 bolt Aussie blue blocks and currently have one of the NASCAR XE
blocks. The 2 bolt Aussie blue block looks much like a standard U.S. 2
bolt block and weighs about the same. If you place it (or a U.S. block)
side-by-side, their is no comparision with the XE blocks.
The Cleveland V8 was introduced to Australia as a 351C in late 1969 (as a
1970 model) for the XW Falcon GT series. These engines were imported from
the Cleveland, Ohio plant in the United States. In 1972, a 302 Cleveland
was introduced in Australia (never exported to the U.S.) in the XA Falcon
series. These blocks were also from Cleveland, Ohio but the engines were
presumably assembled in Australia using a 3" de-stroked crank. As in the
U.S., those blocks could be 2 or 4 bolt main. In 1974, Ford discontinued
production of the 351C in the United States but Australia continued
producing them until 1982. Those blocks were manufacturd in Australia.
The early Australian blocks were referred to as blue blocks (painted Ford
blue) and are similar to U.S 2 bolt main. In 1976, electronic ignition was
introduced and a subtle revision to the distributor hole was made. These
blocks were still blue block though. In 1979, the black blocks were
introduced and remained the standard block until production ceased at the
end of 1982. All of these blocks had the smaller distributor hole but
also reputed to have thicker bores but not nearly as thick as the real XE
race blocks.
I've been informed that there may have been black blocks that were
produced with the XE casting number. I've not confirmed this as a fact
but it's easy enough to check for. As long as the block has the casting
number, 4 bolt mains (beefier than U.S. versions), and unsculpted pan
rails, it's a good one. Besides being heavier, the XE caps are reputed to
be made of higher nodular iron. Supposedly, there are Siamese bore and
non-Siamese bore versions. It's always a good idea to inspect for core
shift by having the block sonic tested.
A number of late model Pantera and Longchamp owners have inspected there
Aussie blocks. Some had the different diameter distributor hole and all
had minor casting differences with U.S. blocks. Some had D2AE-CA casting
numbers, which are also shared with U.S. blocks. The casting differences
include bulges between the freeze plugs and the pain rails and an oval
Ford logo to the left of the oil pressure sender. U.S. blocks may have a
smaller (1") poorly defined oval there but the Aussie block oval is larger
(1.5" to 2") and very well defined.
Kip (formerly of the Pantera Performance Center in Colorado) bought a
batch of Aussie 2 bolt main blocks, and sonic tested them all. He says
their wall thickness was about the same as U.S. 2 bolt blocks and some
did not pass sonic test. These may have all been blue blocks. I also
had one of these blocks and it weighed about the same as a U.S. 2 bolt
main block. My XE block is quite a bit heavier and exhibits all the
characteristics mentioned previously. Kip has had several XE 4 bolt main
blocks in the shop and said they were all great (no core shift problems)
and he's bored them out as much as 0.187" over (to fit a sleeve) and
never gone through a wall. Some sources have said that there were XE
blocks that did not pass core shift inspection and were passed on to
passenger vehicles so there may be some XE blocks out there with core
shift problems. Always a good idea to sonic check and visually check
for casting uniformity. This goes for aftermarket race blocks too.
So the bottom line is there are Aussie blocks and then there are Aussie
blocks. Summarizing, blocks used in Australia could be:
1. Blocks imported from the U.S. before Australian-sourced blocks were
available. Could be either 2 or 4 bolt mains.
2. "Blue blocks" (painted Ford blue). These were the earliest Australian 2
bolt main castings. Probably not any thicker than comparable U.S. blocks.
Later vesions had a small diameter distributor hole (see below).
3. "Black blocks". These were later Australian 2 bolt main castings that
were introduced. All were equipped with electronic distributors. The
distributor hole (at the bottom) is smaller, so U.S. and earlier Aussie
distributors won't fit without modification. The distributor hole is the
same except for the hole in the block that holds the very bottom of the
distributor. The diameter difference is small, like the difference between
a 12mm wrench and 1/2" wrench (0.5mm). Supposedly a thicker casting than
the "blue blocks" but not a huge difference like the XE blocks.
4. 4 bolt main non-Siamese bore. A special casting for U.S. racing.
Only a few hundred made. This is the one with the straight pan rails.
The real NASCAR blocks will have an XE casting number prefix (e.g. XE
192540), thick, non-contoured main bearing webs, one inch thick block
skirt (pan rail), heavier, high nodular iron four bolt main caps, and
0.165 inch minimum thickness cylinder walls.
5. Same as number 4 but with Siamese bores. Use a coat hangar snaked in
through the core plug holes to test. If it's Siamese, the cylinder walls
will touch and you won't be able to push it through the adjacent cylinders.
There could be others. I've heard of Aussie truck blocks but I don't know
if they are any different than passenger car blocks. After the U.S. 351C
supply dried up, DeTomaso sourced the engines from Australia. They were
basicallytruck motors with open chamber 2V heads. I've heard nothing
special claimed about the blocks. Aussie 302C and 351C blocks interchange.
I've also heard that towards the end of the production run, there were
variations in the blocks like 4 bolt main black blocks that had sculpted
mains. They may just have been using up left over stock or tooling.
Dan Jones
wall, variety. A batch of maybe a few hundred XE-192540 blocks were cast
specifically for racing back before the Motorsport blocks were available.
These are the thick race blocks. A real XE-192540 blocks weighs
considerably more than a standard Cleveland block, has thicker cylinder
walls, unsculpted pan rails, and beefier 4 bolt main caps. I've had one
of the 2 bolt Aussie blue blocks and currently have one of the NASCAR XE
blocks. The 2 bolt Aussie blue block looks much like a standard U.S. 2
bolt block and weighs about the same. If you place it (or a U.S. block)
side-by-side, their is no comparision with the XE blocks.
The Cleveland V8 was introduced to Australia as a 351C in late 1969 (as a
1970 model) for the XW Falcon GT series. These engines were imported from
the Cleveland, Ohio plant in the United States. In 1972, a 302 Cleveland
was introduced in Australia (never exported to the U.S.) in the XA Falcon
series. These blocks were also from Cleveland, Ohio but the engines were
presumably assembled in Australia using a 3" de-stroked crank. As in the
U.S., those blocks could be 2 or 4 bolt main. In 1974, Ford discontinued
production of the 351C in the United States but Australia continued
producing them until 1982. Those blocks were manufacturd in Australia.
The early Australian blocks were referred to as blue blocks (painted Ford
blue) and are similar to U.S 2 bolt main. In 1976, electronic ignition was
introduced and a subtle revision to the distributor hole was made. These
blocks were still blue block though. In 1979, the black blocks were
introduced and remained the standard block until production ceased at the
end of 1982. All of these blocks had the smaller distributor hole but
also reputed to have thicker bores but not nearly as thick as the real XE
race blocks.
I've been informed that there may have been black blocks that were
produced with the XE casting number. I've not confirmed this as a fact
but it's easy enough to check for. As long as the block has the casting
number, 4 bolt mains (beefier than U.S. versions), and unsculpted pan
rails, it's a good one. Besides being heavier, the XE caps are reputed to
be made of higher nodular iron. Supposedly, there are Siamese bore and
non-Siamese bore versions. It's always a good idea to inspect for core
shift by having the block sonic tested.
A number of late model Pantera and Longchamp owners have inspected there
Aussie blocks. Some had the different diameter distributor hole and all
had minor casting differences with U.S. blocks. Some had D2AE-CA casting
numbers, which are also shared with U.S. blocks. The casting differences
include bulges between the freeze plugs and the pain rails and an oval
Ford logo to the left of the oil pressure sender. U.S. blocks may have a
smaller (1") poorly defined oval there but the Aussie block oval is larger
(1.5" to 2") and very well defined.
Kip (formerly of the Pantera Performance Center in Colorado) bought a
batch of Aussie 2 bolt main blocks, and sonic tested them all. He says
their wall thickness was about the same as U.S. 2 bolt blocks and some
did not pass sonic test. These may have all been blue blocks. I also
had one of these blocks and it weighed about the same as a U.S. 2 bolt
main block. My XE block is quite a bit heavier and exhibits all the
characteristics mentioned previously. Kip has had several XE 4 bolt main
blocks in the shop and said they were all great (no core shift problems)
and he's bored them out as much as 0.187" over (to fit a sleeve) and
never gone through a wall. Some sources have said that there were XE
blocks that did not pass core shift inspection and were passed on to
passenger vehicles so there may be some XE blocks out there with core
shift problems. Always a good idea to sonic check and visually check
for casting uniformity. This goes for aftermarket race blocks too.
So the bottom line is there are Aussie blocks and then there are Aussie
blocks. Summarizing, blocks used in Australia could be:
1. Blocks imported from the U.S. before Australian-sourced blocks were
available. Could be either 2 or 4 bolt mains.
2. "Blue blocks" (painted Ford blue). These were the earliest Australian 2
bolt main castings. Probably not any thicker than comparable U.S. blocks.
Later vesions had a small diameter distributor hole (see below).
3. "Black blocks". These were later Australian 2 bolt main castings that
were introduced. All were equipped with electronic distributors. The
distributor hole (at the bottom) is smaller, so U.S. and earlier Aussie
distributors won't fit without modification. The distributor hole is the
same except for the hole in the block that holds the very bottom of the
distributor. The diameter difference is small, like the difference between
a 12mm wrench and 1/2" wrench (0.5mm). Supposedly a thicker casting than
the "blue blocks" but not a huge difference like the XE blocks.
4. 4 bolt main non-Siamese bore. A special casting for U.S. racing.
Only a few hundred made. This is the one with the straight pan rails.
The real NASCAR blocks will have an XE casting number prefix (e.g. XE
192540), thick, non-contoured main bearing webs, one inch thick block
skirt (pan rail), heavier, high nodular iron four bolt main caps, and
0.165 inch minimum thickness cylinder walls.
5. Same as number 4 but with Siamese bores. Use a coat hangar snaked in
through the core plug holes to test. If it's Siamese, the cylinder walls
will touch and you won't be able to push it through the adjacent cylinders.
There could be others. I've heard of Aussie truck blocks but I don't know
if they are any different than passenger car blocks. After the U.S. 351C
supply dried up, DeTomaso sourced the engines from Australia. They were
basicallytruck motors with open chamber 2V heads. I've heard nothing
special claimed about the blocks. Aussie 302C and 351C blocks interchange.
I've also heard that towards the end of the production run, there were
variations in the blocks like 4 bolt main black blocks that had sculpted
mains. They may just have been using up left over stock or tooling.
Dan Jones
Thanks for the great input on the 351C blocks.I have one more question,what are acceptable sonic test results?
Here I'm running into problems.What is the minimun acceptable wall thickness of
1. The sides of the cylinder?
2. The thrust sufaces?
Since I've stepped up the search I've found 7 emgines.
Dan, one last thing,is there any difference or preference between a 2 BBL and a 4BBL block?
Thanks, Guy
Here I'm running into problems.What is the minimun acceptable wall thickness of
1. The sides of the cylinder?
2. The thrust sufaces?
Since I've stepped up the search I've found 7 emgines.
Dan, one last thing,is there any difference or preference between a 2 BBL and a 4BBL block?
Thanks, Guy
Guy,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Time is in short supply these days
and I visit this sight on an infrequent basis.
>I have one more question, what are acceptable sonic test results?
It depends upon who you talk to and how much power you are producing.
The 351C racers I've talked to say they want to see 0.120" on major
thrust face for engines making over 500 HP and prefer 0.150" when
they can get it. 351C blocks tend to crack the cylinder half way up,
usually on the thrust side. This is probably a form of column buckling.
A partial fill of hard block (to lower water pump bolts) is an option
that seems to stabilize the cylinders. Racers I know swear by the
stuff (some running in the 9's with 351C blocks). With a properly
functioning cooling system, you can run a partial fill (to the bottom
water pump bolts) on the street since most of the cooling happens up
top where the combustion occurs. One engine builder I know hard
blocks everything other than mom and pop grocery getter stock rebuilds.
Note that many modern (and many old) engines have shallow waterjackets
for increased strength (and better NVH). You'll need to add an oil
cooler to keep the oil temperatures in check as they may climb over
time, even as the water remains within the normal operating range.
The block (actually the water jackets and passages) needs to be clean
and the fill must be done prior to any machining (boring and honing).
You fill one side at a time, positioning the block deck square with the
floor. Make sure the block is also level for-and-aft (many engine
stands are not). Before pouring, put the main caps in place and torque
to spec. Also, install and torque the other side head. Pour the
filler then bolt the remaining head in place. Wait a day and rotate
the block and do the other side. I'd also wait several weeks to let
the stuff cure before machining.
>Dan, one last thing,is there any difference or preference between a
>2 BBL and a 4BBL block?
Do you mean 2 bolt main or 2 barrel carb? All 2 barrel motors I've
seen were 2 bolt main blocks. 4 barrel motors could be either 2 bolt
or 4 bolt main. The blocks were basically the same expect for the
main caps but there were some casting variations. The only other
difference of note is the size of the notch at the top of the block
for valve clearance/shrouding. The 4V motors usually have a large
size notch to clear the large canted valves. This can sometimes
limit the upper ring placement when using a larger stroke crank and/or
longer rods. 4 bolt mains are nice to have but not necessary for
most applications.
Dan Jones
Sorry for the delay in responding. Time is in short supply these days
and I visit this sight on an infrequent basis.
>I have one more question, what are acceptable sonic test results?
It depends upon who you talk to and how much power you are producing.
The 351C racers I've talked to say they want to see 0.120" on major
thrust face for engines making over 500 HP and prefer 0.150" when
they can get it. 351C blocks tend to crack the cylinder half way up,
usually on the thrust side. This is probably a form of column buckling.
A partial fill of hard block (to lower water pump bolts) is an option
that seems to stabilize the cylinders. Racers I know swear by the
stuff (some running in the 9's with 351C blocks). With a properly
functioning cooling system, you can run a partial fill (to the bottom
water pump bolts) on the street since most of the cooling happens up
top where the combustion occurs. One engine builder I know hard
blocks everything other than mom and pop grocery getter stock rebuilds.
Note that many modern (and many old) engines have shallow waterjackets
for increased strength (and better NVH). You'll need to add an oil
cooler to keep the oil temperatures in check as they may climb over
time, even as the water remains within the normal operating range.
The block (actually the water jackets and passages) needs to be clean
and the fill must be done prior to any machining (boring and honing).
You fill one side at a time, positioning the block deck square with the
floor. Make sure the block is also level for-and-aft (many engine
stands are not). Before pouring, put the main caps in place and torque
to spec. Also, install and torque the other side head. Pour the
filler then bolt the remaining head in place. Wait a day and rotate
the block and do the other side. I'd also wait several weeks to let
the stuff cure before machining.
>Dan, one last thing,is there any difference or preference between a
>2 BBL and a 4BBL block?
Do you mean 2 bolt main or 2 barrel carb? All 2 barrel motors I've
seen were 2 bolt main blocks. 4 barrel motors could be either 2 bolt
or 4 bolt main. The blocks were basically the same expect for the
main caps but there were some casting variations. The only other
difference of note is the size of the notch at the top of the block
for valve clearance/shrouding. The 4V motors usually have a large
size notch to clear the large canted valves. This can sometimes
limit the upper ring placement when using a larger stroke crank and/or
longer rods. 4 bolt mains are nice to have but not necessary for
most applications.
Dan Jones