Bad Noises from Cleveland

Noted and warned, thanks but sorry for Your misfortune, keep posting. Urbain



#1154

Argh!

(I hope a few of you notice a motor with big 4V port heads is described as having "fantastic throttle response")

-G

Yes I did. Everything is relative George. Relative to what is my thought?

Very sorry to hear about the engine troubles.
Lets hope for something simple and easy to repair.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Yes I did. Everything is relative George. Relative to what is my thought?

The only thing I changed was replace the old Edelbrock F351 4V with the Blue Thunder. The difference was amazing. I also have a FAST EZ-EFI throttle body fuel injection, but did no adjustments between the swap. With the FAST, you can tune the "pump shot" parameter and get a Cleveland to respond instantaneously.

Damage Report:

#2 cylinder rod bearing is toast. It wore itself down to about 1/2 thickness of a good bearing and the rod was loose on the journal. Fortunately, the journal looks OK. I only drove the car a short distance when the noise started, so the damage should be minimal. I guess all the bottom end bearings are suspect, so they will all get replaced as a minimum.

Got a new Kevco 9qt pan on order

All things considered, I think you were lucky.
Or Smart, not to drive it any further.

Dave

sounds like good news. Its the rod bearings for cylinders #2 and #7 where oil starvation always occurs.

use Clevite 77 tri-metal bearings, and while you're in there replace the connecting rod nuts if they haven't already been replaced.

-G

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
Dave

sounds like good news. Its the rod bearings for cylinders #2 and #7 where oil starvation always occurs.

use Clevite 77 tri-metal bearings, and while you're in there replace the connecting rod nuts if they haven't already been replaced.
-G

I hope that is all there is in the way of damage. I've been reading you Facebook Cleveland page for all the tricks. I noticed that my rod bearings do not have a groove, but the ones on your page do. Is that an important feature? My plan is to check the chamfer on the crank oil holes, replace the bearings, and install the Kevko pan. Will this be adequate insurance against another problem like this? I don't track the car, but do drive the pee out of it on mountain roads and hard street launches.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave2811:

I hope that is all there is in the way of damage.

Measuring the bearing journal is important, you want to check for both OD and roundness.

If the bearing spun it would have been lodged in the connecting rod in a way other than the way it is supposed to be installed. There would be signs of wear or damage on the backside of the bearing shell.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave2811:

I noticed that my rod bearings do not have a groove, but the ones on your page do. Is that an important feature?

Only main bearings have grooves, rod bearings don't

quote:

Originally posted by Dave2811:

My plan is to check the chamfer on the crank oil holes, replace the bearings, and install the Kevko pan.

Keep the work you do to a minimum while the crank is still in the motor, you don't want to grind on the crank or anything because the debris will get into the motor. Just make sure the rod bearing journal is still round and the OD is still ok. If the journal's surface finish needs work, take pictures and let us have a look-see.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave2811:

Will this be adequate insurance against another problem like this?

No ... the motor needs 16 lifter bore bushings, 5 cam bearing restrictions, restricted push-rods and a good oil pan. The fact the damage happened to journal #2 and was not random or universal tells me this is classic Cleveland oil starvation.

You were having fun with that new manifold !!!

There's nothing wrong with that. You should be able to drive the balls off this motor without problems. The stuff I recommend over and over is about making the motor capable of surviving being driven fun like this.

-G

Here is a shot of the journal. If you can't guess, the affected part is on the left.

The rod and bearing cap show evidence of the bearing scuffing the seats. The rod bearing cap also shows evidence of blueing from heat.

As I look more closely at the damage, and other parts of the motor that I THOUGHT were assembled properly by my engine builder, I am leaning to just taking it to Russ Fulp and be done with it. The previous guy put dished pistons with open chamber heads. That is about 8:1? No wonder I could run 34 degrees initial timing on pump regular with no detonation. He also said he replaced the valves and did a 3 angle valve job. I get the heads off and find a FoMoCo logo on the intake valves and single angle seats.

It is funny, I had the thing dialed in and was thrilled with the performance. Now I get it apart and find all kinds of surprises!

Based on the pic & your description of the connecting rod I say it needs a tear-down and a reworking with the right parts & machine work.

Just think how strong the motor will run with 10.0:1 compression! You'll like it, I guarantee.

-G

Dave 2811, I just finally got my car on the road. Only took 2 years. I'll take picts some day soon and post them. I built the cleveland myself using George's formula / advice on this forum. In installed the bushed lifter bores and the restrictors. Was not difficult to do. I checked static compression ratio with the Trick Flow heads and the Ross pistons he recommends. I got 10.7:1 not bad. The engine runs really hard with instant torque. Unfortunately I do not have a comparison of before and after as the car never ran when I bought it. I run about 80-90 psi cold and 45 psi or so hot. Hopefully it will survive for a long time.

I too have had problems in the past with shoddy work from machine shops. This time I only sourced out the maching work and did everything else myself. I'm glad I did.

BTW George thanks for all your help.

BTW that oil pressure is with a stock type oil pump not a HV type pump.

Update on my epic rebuild saga. Two engine rebuilds since the start of this thread, I just completed the install and test drive on the third rebuild since I have owned the car in 1.5 years.

If you read the start of this thread, I spun a rod bearing during a hard 1/4 mile run with a stock oil pan. Might have been my fault, might have been the quality of the rebuild 5000 miles ago.

So I yank the motor and take it to Valley Machine. The have been in the same place since, forever. The guy knows his stuff. 4 weeks later I get the motor back and get it back in the car, along with a Kevko 8 qt oil pan.

260 miles into the break-in driving sequence I get ANOTHER rod knock. I change the oil and sho 'nuff, there is that golden shimmer in the oil. I cut open the oil filter and there is bearing material in the pleats.

So I take my oil filter, and my receipt back to Valley Machine to find a sign on the locked door. The proprietor retired the business and closed his doors!

The guy must have rushed the rebuild and short cut the process of checking the rods, because it was the same rod bearing that failed the first time.

I do not need this project again, but I'm getting damn good yanking the motor. Did this one in 6 hours.

The third rebuild went to Russ Fulp in Anaheim. I should have gone to him a year and a half ago. He turned around the motor in 2 weeks, and recommended some other mods like full roller rockers. Russ knows his stuff.

Got the motor back on Thursday, and took the car around the neighborhood today. I'm getting damn quick at engine changes.

The motor sounds sweet and happy. I'm happy. A bit poorer, and wiser, but happy!

The motor looks nice Dave, glad to read you're happy and wiser, glad to see the smiley emoticon.

Not so glad about the poorer part.

-G