Brembo Caliper Upgrade

I still have a couple sets (front and rear) of 996TT calipers and a couple people have installed these with the stock upright with great results.  Similar sets are $1,400 on ebay (maybe able to find them for less?), I just want $800. 

I stopped in last year to SACO and spoke to the young guy at the counter and he assured me that someone would call me and get me hooked up.   I left my name and phone number and didn't hear anything.   Then I gave a ring on the phone a few weeks later and that same young guy answered and I asked if the calipers, CV's, and rear uprights were available - oh yes was the answer and that I should expect to get a phone call - but I never did................

I am interested if these really do exist - but I would like to know a couple of things before I pay up for anything.   Can the CV axles be made up in 300M material and what are the choices for cages and rubber boots?   Is it possible to have the transaxle bolt pattern be the Porsche 930 output shaft pattern and the upright end fit the axle that will fit in your upright?   Also, can the rear Pantera uprights be had in 7075 material?   I'm a serious buyer - so if this is possible that would be great - thank you,  Mark

I'm probably the person who should have been given your information so I could have responded to your questions. I'll try my best to help you make the best decision for your requirements. Answering your listed questions: Yes the axles are available made with 300M at a cost 60 percent higher than 4340 Chro-Moly. 4340 is more than capable of handling twice the torque capability of a ZF transaxle. Output shafts from ZF transaxle to 930 CV Joints are available through SACC, RBT or possible others I don't know at this time. 4130 Chro-Moly cages almost double the strength of a standard 930 CV joint (discovered through off-road racing). 7075 uprights are available at a significant cost increase and was considered years ago when the uprights were redesigned for weight reduction. I can be reached at burrid1@netzero.net for additional information. Thanks for your interest. I had forgot about PI forms for 10 years, and glad to once again become a reader.

These are the Brembo brakes on the stock uprights.  Ed, Ken, and Ike did a great developing this option for Pantera owners.  

Jimmym, do you have a picture or description of the bracket for the rear caliper. Thanks 

Ike, I don’t have a picture of the rear caliper bracket.  I do have one for the Ipsco emergency brake though.

Where did you get the bracket for the rear caliper? The original brackets from SACO (designed for Brembo calipers) position the calipers at 9 o'clock on the rear, Yours appears to be clocked at 10 o'clock

These are photos of a 996TT rear caliper mounted to an upright using the SACO bracket

Ike, I got the front and rear brackets, as well as the rotors and hats from Ed.

Thanks for the education. Ken straightened me out yesterday. Haven’t worked on the systems in years. Another autism moment 

Just in case if some of you were wondering about the cost of this set up, it was very reasonable.  I purchased my calipers from European Auto Recycling for $1175.  Ed’s kit came with caliper brackets, rotors, and hats for $1430.  I purchased the brake pads from Renn Part for $195.   Total is $2800.  This could done cheaper with Ken’s calipers or if there are any deals on Ebay.  If you wanted brand new calipers Sunset Porsche is one of the dealers who has better prices.  The calipers are from a 996 TT.  Mine are from a 997 Carrera S which has the same part number as the 996 TT.  

All this was purchased in 2017 so I am not sure what the current prices are.

Thanks for your help. Your information is extremely helpful. Ed died in July and I’m trying to get the components together for other Pantera owners. I’ll also need your information with pictures of the emergency brake. Thanks again, Ike

Here are a couple of pictures of the Ipsco e brake

Sincere thanks. Owe you at least a couple of beers in the future

Jimmy,

What sizes of rotors are you using? Are the rotor hats the standard Wilwood Pantera hats? 

Thanks. 

My recollection is that the SACO hats have the same specs as the Wilwood "Pantera" hats.  We ordered Coleman rotors, I have the details.  The front are 13.1 by 1.25 and are a really good fit, but the Coleman catalog just lists a 13 inch, but I found out that they could finish them to 13.1.

Wilwood hats I believe are cast aluminum distort easier than the SACO 6061 billet aluminum 

Jimmy,

What master cylinder did you choose to work with the Porsche calipers? Do you know what sizes the bores (F&R) are? Are you still using a PB booster? Are you happy with the pedal feel and effort? 

Thanks.

@davidnunn posted:

Jimmy,

What sizes of rotors are you using? Are the rotor hats the standard Wilwood Pantera hats? 

Thanks. 

I think what Ken posted is correct, if I remember correctly.  The sizes weren’t on my invoice.   I think they are about the same as what Porsche used on the 996 TT.  If I didn’t go with the Coleman’s, I would go with Performance Friction or Girodisc.  I found both companies nice to speak with.  One person at PF was willing to run a brake simulation for me to determine braking force with my master cylinder, calipers and rotors.

David, the master cylinder was installed in the early 90s that I bought from my friend who owned Wally’s Auto who used to restore Panteras.  My OEM master cylinder was going bad so he installed the one that I currently still have on the car.  I don’t know the bore sizes.  I thought that my friend who installed the brakes said that it had a 1” bore.  He removed the factory proportioning valve.  It still has the pb  booster.  From the limited amount of driving I have done over the last few months, I feel the pedal feel and effort is appropriate.  

Jimmy,

Wally Baldyga? It looks like you have an OEM master, which I believe has a slightly smaller bore than 1" but should be perfect for your Porsche calipers.  

David, yes that’s my friend Wally.  He lives pretty close to me.

By posting that picture of the master cylinder, I figured you might recognize what it is.  The pedal pressure and travel feel good.

I have a 996tt and I think I have a set of calipers stashed away somewhere. If I can find them, how much are just the adapters? Thanks!

Adapters are $75 each. They are designed to work with a hat that’s 1.63”, top to bottom. Hats made from billet 6061 Aluminum are $150 each but if purchased with brackets total cost is $830.  

Thanks for the reply.

Not terribly priced, roughly the same as Massive Brakes Kit (Lee) for my other favorite marques.

In the event I cannot locate my calipers in storage, please shoot me a PM with the total package price with calipers and the kit you mentioned.

I already have a new GT4/GT5 master from Wilkinson on my bench along with the Corvette master cyl on the car now.  Do you recommend Wilwood or Brembo curved-vane vented, slotted discs?

We don't carry Porsche calipers, only the parts required to use them on a Pantera.

Toured Brembo facility in early 2000 and immediately sold a set of (I believe) Sierra Calipers. Wilwood makes an excellent product and most Pantera owners use them. Don't think you would go wrong with either choice. If you can't find the calipers, Wilwood makes calipers rotors and hats for a matched set.

I've got a set of Brembos from the early 2000's. Both hats and rotors are designed to float. Rotors are drilled, slotted with curved vanes and attach to hats via 10 titanium pins. Pin clearance is based on max temperature of rotor. Rotors are designed to channel ducted air out through the vanes as well as into the hats. Hats are designed to channel air to the outside rotor caliper pads.

Check bore size on mater cylinder for compatibility with what ever system you decide to use. Let me know if I can be of further assistance

I'm pretty active in the Porsche community I'm sure I can piece together a set if I can't locate mine. This looks like a great option as the brakes on the turbo are fantastic. I also know of a guy in the 996TT club who makes longer hardened bolts and machined spacers so you can use 350mm vs 330mm rotors to increase swept area (uses the same pads) his kit would be a reasonable add on at $125.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the kit you make is only for the fronts and the rears are kept stock? The 350MM works well on the TT because it fights brake fade (larger swept area) and at least purportedly improves stopping power since the area that the pad bites the disc is further from the axis. (I'm no engineer, would have to look that one up) in case I stated that wrong. I'm instaling the upgrade on my TT this weekend with EBC Orange Stuffs.

Sorry, total "metric system induced" brain fart on my part. I was thinking 35mm vs. 33mm width. 350mm diameter rotors is a nice upgrade for a 996TT as it gives better heat dissipation and a slightly lighter pedal. I believe the minimum wheel diameter is 18", for a 350mm diameter rotor.

Please forgive misunderstanding. We make parts for front and rear that use front and rear calipers from 996 TT. Completely agree with your thoughts on brake fade. Please share your thoughts and opinion on EBC Orange Stuff . Cold and hot performance. I used EBC Blue when I assembled the kit in 2011. Cold performance was better than expected. Planed to test at Wilkinson’s against other systems but transaxle failed before it happened.

I'd be happy to. I also have a set of Reds on my bench that I may use if the Oranges prove too difficult to heat up in the street. I drive "briskly" in sparsely populated/policed canyons and use a ******* amount of brake to scrub speed. We'll see. I will be using Sebro Slotted 350mm rotors.

So to confirm the kit you quoted is for 4 hats/pins and brackets?

From the beginning there’s been a number of conversations on how good is this system compared to others and I don’t know. If it doesn’t compare exactly as a 996, I would like to know why. Understand a Porsche 996 is a beautiful engineered piece of machinery and can’t be compared to a Pantera of any year. Only way to compare brake systems is place them on a brake dyno. I live in Southern California and StopTech has three brake dynos. Chief engineer there (if he’s still there) used to be a Pantera owner. I’ll look into settings up a test if someone with a different system shares the same interest. Note: Testing to failure normally sacrifices test items.

Front and rear Brackets, hats, related cap screws with stainless washers. Everything except rotors and bolts that secure hats to rotors. Hats have 8 bolt (clearance for 5/16 bolts) pattern on 7.625 diameter. Thanks for responding. Been looking for your experience and expertise. Please keep me informed of how your braking system works. Doesn’t matter if you buy the parts.

Happy to contribute. It's nice when someone puts together a partially DIY solution vs the default "call the vendors" I have 4 "fun" cars all in various stages of build and modification. My 1972  2002"M2" Street/Tarmac rally/hill climb project (E30 M3 S14 Motorsport engine, Ground control double adjustable suspension, BBK (to be purchased) and huge other list of mods has turned into an expensive project. The Pantera needs paint and bodywork from some vandalism, The '77 Carrera (well the Porsche tax) and the Turbo...all ads up. Fortunately, I don't have any kids.

So yes...Don't go out of business in the next 3-6 mos. I will be buying some parts!

@brother-bee posted:

From the beginning there’s been a number of conversations on how good is this system compared to others and I don’t know. If it doesn’t compare exactly as a 996, I would like to know why. Understand a Porsche 996 is a beautiful engineered piece of machinery and can’t be compared to a Pantera of any year. Only way to compare brake systems is place them on a brake dyno. I live in Southern California and StopTech has three brake dynos. Chief engineer there (if he’s still there) used to be a Pantera owner. I’ll look into settings up a test if someone with a different system shares the same interest. Note: Testing to failure normally sacrifices test items.

It's interesting to hear you mention StopTech because I'm using their calipers on my Pantera. Before Wilwood manufactured street versions of their calipers, the main reason to use Porsche, Brembo, Baer, StopTech, etc. calipers was, they had the "DOT required" dust and dirt seals around the pistons, so you could drive the car through a big puddle of muddy, salty water and after years of doing so, the calipers would stand up to it. Now that Wilwood makes weatherproof, "street" calipers, there isn't as much of a benefit to the more expensive Brembo style calipers. That being said, I've never heard of a failure of a Wilwood racing caliper, without dust and dirt seals, even after decades of them being used on daily driven Panteras.

Unfortunately, even with 996TT calipers and rotors, a Pantera won't stop as well as a 996TT.  The reasons are: lack of ABS and lack of anti-dive geometry in the front suspension. When you brake hard in a Pantera, the nose drops and the rear rises, which induces weight transfer and reduces traction (and braking potential) at the rear. This effect can be minimized through the careful selection of coil spring rates and shock absorber tuning, but it's nearly impossible to match the Porsche without some anti-dive in the suspension. Then there's the ABS...

I drive with the PASM off most of the time unless I'm in the wet where it has saved my ass more that a few times. The rest of my cars you threshold brake. My Pantera has been in storage a long time and  I've clocked a lot of seat time on wet weather rallies in 911s since, but you only have to pirouette once in a Pantera to learn to avoid the wet or getting on the power in the wet.

Honestly I’m not trying to make a statement like I’m a bad ass and I’m sure you have a lot more experience in high performance driving (I normally ride the bus). Don’t know about other Panteras but after heating EBC blue pads for testing. My Pantera bottomed out the front suspension. There’s obviously a number of factors involved in effective braking. What I hope get better informed about  is a braking systems ability to stop rotors from turning multiple times, even under extreme heat. Please forgive if you feel it’s directed towards you personally. My question has been if a braking system is better, what’s involved to make it better?

I didn't take it that way at all...my apologies if that was how I came across. George Pence for instance has forgotten more things about the Pantera and general automotive than I'll probably ever know.

I'm in the hamfisted "hare" group but I'm no badass...always someone smoother and faster. I'm just a hoon and a shade-tree mechanic and excited to collaborate and provide feedback on build vs buy performance upgrades and learn from the group.

I do plan to install SAAC's coil over setup and his halfshafts when I put the Pantera back on the road. I plan to drive the car briskly with R compound DOT rubber.

I’m also considering using SACC’s CV axle kit (on sale for 2K) along with their air shocks. SACC’s not far from where I live so I’ll just drive down to discuss. Who makes the R compound tires you plan to use.

Excited to see the 2002 in the picture. Always loved them. Got technical drawing on BMW 320 Racing Car Gr.5 on garage wall. Lease keep informed on progress

@brother-bee posted:

I’m also considering using SACC’s CV axle kit (on sale for 2K) along with their air shocks. SACC’s not far from where I live so I’ll just drive down to discuss. Who makes the R compound tires you plan to use.

Ike, I purchased my Koni adjustable coil overs from Dennis at Pantera Performance.  Dennis also had a few different offerings for CV axles.  I was going to put them on my car to fit the 3” exhaust pipes, but my friend was able to get the exhaust to fit with the factory axles.

@brother-bee what's the sales tax rate where you live?

Another major advantage of using this set up is that there are a lot of different brake pad offerings for the Porsche calipers.

Years ago it was over 125

10.5% if you live in California and no tax if you don’t.

@brother-bee I need to hit you up when I'm ready to buy from SAAC. $300 sales tax for not a very big pile of parts is unacceptable. Effing CA one party rule.

There's no sales tax if they ship it out of state.

Correct

SACO Owner says no tax on out of state shipping. SACC I don’t know. Will discuss when I talk with them

Yeah I definitely want to sidestep that if possible. I'll pay someone to ship over giving another dime to the CA general fund.

I was looking to upgrade my front breaks. And this looks like something feasible. Does Saco Performance still exist? I've been searching everywhere and I keep getting directed to Mckenzie's Performance. Brother-Bee are you still involved with this break kit in any way? Very confused at where to purchase the kit.

Saco Performance is no more. Both owners retired due to illness and I believe both passed away a few years ago.

The most interesting item they made for the Pantera was their billet aluminum rear uprights. They weighed less than half of what the OEM iron uprights weighed, used a modern cartridge bearing, had CV companion flanges and Porsche 996 TT rear calipers bolted-on without an adapter.

Unfortunately the owner of SACO died and his only son was interested in liquidation of business and property. I have all remaining parts from the shop although not inventoried. The shop did not supply calipers which came from 2002-2005 Porsche  Turbo or Turbo S. Ten years ago availability was better. Single caliper from Pelican (996-351-429 & 996-351-430) costs over $1200 each. The rotors were custom ordered from Coleman Racing Rotors and cost between $150 and $400 each depending upon how you want them prepared. Also brake master cylinder change and compensation valve may be needed. Finally 17 inch diameter rims are the minimum diameter. If you’re still interested I have mounting brackets, hats, hubs all made from billet aluminum and will assist as much as needed.

Hi Ike, I was just looking on eBay and used calipers can still be purchased for roughly the same price for what I paid for them 7 years ago.  The 996 Turbo calipers are from 2001 to 2005.  997 911 carrera s are the same caliper which are what I used on my car (same part # as the the 996 Turbo caliper).  The 997 carrera s was made from 2005 to 2012.

I would like to thank Ike, Ken, and Ed again for coming up with a great option.   They have worked well on my car and I am glad I went with these.   If you can’t find anything on EBay, try European Auto recycling which is where I purchased my set from.

Thank you for all of your responses! Brother-Bee, do you still have the rear Billet Aluminum Uprights that David was talking about as well? I'm in Southern California and would love to check out your inventory.

Three sets of the rear uprights with possible one additional i want to use to determine strength against OEM uprights. I live in Rancho Cucamonga close to where the 15 & 210 cross. It’ll take me a month to be ready for show & tell due to Dementia of a family member. Send PM with email and we can plan for a date to get together. Thanks

@pantera2040 posted:

Thanks for the reply.

Not terribly priced, roughly the same as Massive Brakes Kit (Lee) for my other favorite marques.

In the event I cannot locate my calipers in storage, please shoot me a PM with the total package price with calipers and the kit you mentioned.

I already have a new GT4/GT5 master from Wilkinson on my bench along with the Corvette master cyl on the car now.  Do you recommend Wilwood or Brembo curved-vane vented, slotted discs?

Maybe Contact Larry at Pantera Parts Connection in Carson City Nevada. 775-283-4411. He has/or had Porsche Rotors adapted to fit the Pantera. I have them on My 73, along with WilWood Brakes, they work well and are of High Quality.

It kinda matters what wheels you're using. The absolute largest OD rotor you can fit into a 15" Campagnolo of any width is 11.5". With 17" or larger wheels, there's room for larger OD rotors IF you modify the system with properly positioned calipers. Adding bigger rotors and leaving any calipers in the same place as stock gains nothing in terms of braking power.

And I agree- Porsches are a great source of parts. Back in the '80s I adapted a set of '70s Porsche (thin) vented rotors on all 4 Pantera corners, and used front 911-S (ATE) 2-piston aluminum calipers in back. I  balance braking with a manual Kelsey-Hayes (Corvette) proportioning valve plumbed to the rear calipers. My separate, legal e-brake calipers are Wilwood mechanicals intended for go-karts.

One problem with ALL Euro calipers (Ferraris, Cobras & all Girlings including the Pantera) is, they used chrome-or nickel-plated mild steel pistons which will pinhole-rust in time. U.S. calipers (since the '60s) all use stainless steel. No pits, no liability. Check with a magnet- there are replacement caliper pistons of ss for everything nowadays. I made my own pistons of 316-ss for the ATE's back a few decades.

We went with the 996 Turbo (Brembo) calipers because the 996 Turbo has about the same weight distribution, is a bit heavier, and they are radial mount which made adapting simple.  I also thought they look great.

Increasing brake torque by using a larger diameter rotor is only one way to increase braking.

Adding larger surface area to the pads and clamping power is another.

I will point out that the system that I went to, i.e., using 67 Ford T-bird fronts and 65 Mustang front's on the rear, double the braking capacity of the Pantera, and fit within the original 15" Campi's.

The components are less expensive, readily available and are durability proven run on the Ford factory Mustang Trans-Am cars in the 1969-70 Trans-Am racing season. They are still being run today in Vintage Racing.

They are very easily adaptable to the Pantera and only require installing an adjustable proportioning valve for the rears.

Using the Tesla EPB conversion solves the parking brake issue and it permits you to remove permanently the cabin handbrake and mounting structure to the passenger seat area.

I don't know why so many search for exotic solutions to better braking? To me this is as obvious as the nose on my face, which admittedly is very prominent.

Panteradoug, that sounds like a great solution! Did you have to fabricate adapter brackets for the front and rear calipers? And, how did you get the Tesla e-brake mounted as well?

@Jaygee71 posted:

Panteradoug, that sounds like a great solution! Did you have to fabricate adapter brackets for the front and rear calipers? And, how did you get the Tesla e-brake mounted as well?

They all require fabricated brackets (adapters). All fairly simple. Not rocket science.

In the case of the Tesla EPB you can buy a mounting bracket from Pantera-Electronics to save the effort.

In the case of the Ford calipers brackets were made out of 3/8" plain plate steel but you could use aluminum plate as well.

For me the steel is easier to weld on.

@Bignosedoug …. The cable operated Wilwood parking brake calipers work very well too!

i’m a fan of less electric stuff …

If you are looking for mechanical parking brake calipers, HiSpec Brakes in the UK make excellent units. Notice the cable routing in the photo below. They are the only aftermarket parking brake calipers I’m aware of, other than Brembo (Lamborghini, Viper), that use the stock Pantera cable routing.

@LeMans850i posted:

@Bignosedoug …. The cable operated Wilwood parking brake calipers work very well too!

i’m a fan of less electric stuff …

I told you not to touch the wires with your tongue didn't I? Yikes.