BUYER BEWARE! SOMEBODY CUT THE VINS' OFF THE CAR! Huh???

Can you check under the headlight buckets to see if the last 4 are stamped there?

...maybe that was an accident...(!) All the ID just fell off...

But next what? there is some remote chance that the previous owner didn't actually know--over 40 years, any real thief would have found a totaled car (say, something burned to a crisp) and rebuilt it with pieces from this car. But its too late for that now.

How possibly does this car become legit, until at least its true ID is known? With 'void title,' it still belongs to whoever had it disappear on them long 40 years ago...but if I were the unlucky purchaser, I'd be quickly knocking on someone's door...

I’d be knocking on the door of whoever sold it to me!

I’d want all my money & expenses, plus all my shipping expenses (to/from the seller, to/from Pantera Miami), all title & registrations paid back, or I’d call the cops…

I’d throw it all back to the seller, and make it their problem…  but…  apparently the buyer didn’t do his homework!

Rocky

...there is really no alternative to calling the cops at this point. Whoever chopped the vin number off, whoever borrowed the car from its original owner--they are strangely the one who doesn't need to worry about going to jail (the statute of limitations has long run out). But the timer starts now for whoever is in possession of the car--meaning, a resale, chop shop parts for sale, or hiding the car would represent a brand new crime.

  At least, lets hope the new owner didn't pay Gas Monkey style (with a big pile of cash...)...Lee

hi, my car was stolen 1975 and also restamped  with a bad VIN from an other car.

the car got back the real VIN (from the headlights) by the highway police in 2015!!! (many thanks to Mike Drew)

https://www.provamo.com/Member...967/RTHPNNE06967.asp

  Unbelievable, 40 years ?!? So it was Mike who suspected something while inspecting the car? How then to trace back to you?  (curious on the headlights, I don't know Pantera stampings...for a Mangusta, a few dozen pieces will have the last 2 digits for the Vin, even if not all correct on a single car (in my car, both a rear window trim and the bracket for the AC condenser are 'for' another car..).

  But 40 years, that beats my story of finding my stolen guitar on Ebay after 23 years...Lee

no i bought the car 2016 😁

at this time the „stolen“ problem was already solved by mike.

the police wanted to apply a new VIN to the car
but mike said we know the real VIN, so why not put them back to the car (otherwise with new 2015 VIN, the car will be a kitcar)
the car got a new mettal plate with the old VIN otherwise it were not possible to export the car.

on provamo you can see some fotos from the VIN stamp in the headlight

wow, so the last 4 digits are absolutely unique to a single car? https://www.provamo.com/Member...Info/VINDecoder.asp?  Now, just a question of finding who is still alive and gets their car back...

@leea posted:

wow, so the last 4 digits are absolutely unique to a single car? https://www.provamo.com/Member...Info/VINDecoder.asp?  Now, just a question of finding who is still alive and gets their car back...

I keep thinking about the Mangusta owner whose car was stolen in the 80's. The car is alive and well on the registry, located in several different EU countries in recent years. Sadly the car was stolen in the US. It would be hard to unravel such a long chain of custody. Even if it all went down in one US state, it seems like a long shot. Adding the element of international law dashes my hope of any return.

  At least in the US, the law is pretty clear on title--especially dashing any defense of 'innocent purchase' (bona fide purchase)...The car was stolen, it still belongs to whoever it was stolen from. And basically doing anything with the car is a potential for being accused of handling stolen property.

   In this case, very possibly the seller was an innocent purchaser--that really gave up cash to buy the car at a reasonable price and had no way of understanding otherwise (lets pretend, bought it as a barn find, or out of a storage unit for $15k...maybe even damaged, whatever). Except for not looking themselves for a Vin, lets say their judgment was impeccable and the deal didn't clearly stink. But then, sorry, in US law this buyer is now the second victim in the chain--being a bona fide purchaser doesn't protect stolen property.

Legally, whoever has the car right now doesn't have to a thing...even, doing anything other than calling the cops may be illegal. Whoever is in possession of the car doesn't need to call the cops, but if they 'hide' it or sell it in pieces (much less, imagine selling the whole car) they become the Krimi Verbrecher themselves.

   So recourse is naturally to get their money back from the seller--which really, should be assumed as a starting point...The good news, some justice could be done to the original owner or maybe their estate...Lee

Very well written counselor! He bought a car sight unseen for 49. Once I blew the whistle the Dealer in Texas said he would discount the price to $30,000 if he wants to keep the car. The buyer called me back all excited and said Shark I have to have this car! It’s a deal at 30,k. I said are you crazy? Have you gone out of your mind?? I think 15 cents is too much for that car ! Think about the probable legal ramifications. He returned the car and then received a full refund.

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  Discount the price, a dealer in Texas selling a car with mutilated Vins? And then trying to cash out to avoid more problems?

At least, if the buyer has his money back, the world would be better served if the true Vin were noted here. But meanwhile, it seems there is a "dealer" in Texas (which requires posting a sign, basically) who stands to lose a lot more than just his dealer's license or his own investment in the car.

I’m sorry, but any dealer is wise enough know that a car without a clear transferable title is worthless other than for parts. They may well be illegal parts of that. Seems to me there is some pretty clear culpability here. Glad to hear you got your money back.

there is nothing legal about parting a stolen car---that makes the dealer a chop shop.  Neither do I detect any wisdom in the dealer here, in their offer to cut the price I think they've shown who they are...

..and hmm, why didn't I expect it to be managed by the Feds. How wonderful life is when the FBI doesn't care where you live...  https://www.justice.gov/archiv...-motor-vehicle-parts

just index thru the arrows at the bottom and see how many ways to end up in jail...better to not be clever, and selling parts from a stolen car for thousands of dollars would only be $$tupid...

@scifi posted:

I keep thinking about the Mangusta owner whose car was stolen in the 80's. The car is alive and well on the registry, located in several different EU countries in recent years. Sadly the car was stolen in the US. It would be hard to unravel such a long chain of custody. Even if it all went down in one US state, it seems like a long shot. Adding the element of international law dashes my hope of any return.

Just because the car was stolen in the US, doesn’t mean it can’t be recovered in the EU. There are no borders when it comes to stolen cars, with the possible exception of the Russian and Chinese borders. Cars are stolen, loaded into containers and shipped overseas daily. Most are chopped and sold as parts but many are recovered. If the original owner can’t be bothered to go after it, I wonder if he could sell it, without having physical possession, and let the new owner go after it? Hmmm 🤔

Wouldn't happen to be a burgundy flared out gold painted wheels gold double pin stripe car would it!

If the original owner can’t be bothered to go after it, I wonder if he could sell it, without having physical possession, and let the new owner go after it? Hmmm 🤔

Sure, its a power of attorney if the owner wants to keep it, otherwise of course a rightful owner can sell something they have no possession of and don't know where it is. Even, if the car was insured then, this transfer has already occurred.

Assuming that this car was harvested in Texas decades ago, its possible that the records for the car are fully purged (statute of limitations for the thief is at only 3 years, and records on thefts are deleted after 10 years, at least in my experience with the guitar). Maybe its different for for Autos, but the federal statute is damn clear that a car w/removed vins is a hot potato.

Back to the second post on this thread.

Was anyone able to pop off a headlight bucket to see if the last four of the VIN are still there?

Not to my knowledge.

Just a thought. If the engine is the original engine, is it possible to work backwards and cross reference the engine number to the vehicle VIN# in the Pantera registry.   

Also curious if it still has the “Moteur Number” in the engine bay….

(And as of course Pantera Miami knows…) there’s also the ZF S/N stamped on the top of the transaxle!

Curious minds want to know!

It looks earlier than 4260, so that rules out about 1/2 of the cars…

Rocky

Lee and David, I don't doubt your legal facts at all. But I'm cynical about how much friction one might encounter when trying to unravel such a situation. It's really going to hinge on how savvy the victim is. How motivated are they? Do they have the force of personality to get multiple agencies to take on the issue?

Quick story- My El Camino got stolen. I promptly reported to my local police. I happened to visit the police station for an unrelated matter, where I saw on a whiteboard their list of stolen cars. My license plate was written down incorrectly, as was the model year and several details about the car's description. They were uninterested in correcting the information and suggested that I must have given them bad info in the first place.  I ended up locating the car on my own, without the help of the police. When I called to let them know I found it, they flat refused to send an officer to the location. And this was a theft from a week prior, I can only imagine how they would react to a theft from 40 years ago.

Anyway, I made sure they canceled the stolen report, so I didn't get felony stopped. Not that they really would have known because they weren't looking for the right car in the first place. Then I simply drove off in the car and went home.

I just wonder if someone spends a year and a half paying a private eye or a lawyer. Shipping costs. Only to get back a beat-down shell of a car... Might be more practical to just buy a different Pantera at that point. I know it would be more satisfying and morally victorious to get the original back.

All that being said, I still would love to see this unraveled, and I don't want to discourage anyone, but I hope my experience helps to calibrate expectations.

I'll stop monopolizing the conversation so we can get back to the investigation!

Where’s Joe Friday (or at least his car) when you need him!

At least we armchair detectives solved that mystery!

Rocky

my guess, the "dealer" is now considering whether they want to commit a felony and save more hassle. As I see it, the only way the purchaser got their money back is not because the dealer thought it was the right thing to do, but because they wanted to avoid more trouble and escalation. In other words, if it weren't for the risk of the cops or notice of a civil lawsuit, the purchaser would be empty handed now.

If you saw the movie Superbad, when the "Mclovin" kid character is describing what he saw to the cop (Seth Rogen) and asks something like 'are you going to find these guys?" (and then the cop just murmurs something like, 'um, no, that never happens, but we have to fill out the form...' . I think anybody growing up in the US knows this story, who hasn't been ripped off?

Maybe the original owner had insurance, whatever rationalization or justification. But the rest of us should be pissed at this "dealer", if they do anything but start with the police,  make a claim against the estate they purchased from, and then hang tight with the police to seek the opportunity to repurchase and re-title....

@Sharkey posted:

Very well written counselor! He bought a car sight unseen for 49. Once I blew the whistle the Dealer in Texas said he would discount the price to $30,000 if he wants to keep the car. The buyer called me back all excited and said Shark I have to have this car! It’s a deal at 30,k. I said are you crazy? Have you gone out of your mind?? I think 15 cents is too much for that car ! Think about the probable legal ramifications. He returned the car and then received a full refund.

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Into my opinium you can always buy this car as long there is a title with the car .

at least I will do this.

when you part out this car it will bring your money back.

Simon

if you have some time you can read the full stolen story of my car (email mike and chuck)

https://drive.google.com/file/...4XVqh3XLI8bECtc2l8BA

Mux, damn interesting story, I had never considered that even during the service of a car, its tags could be taken...and after all, how many owners would have noticed? And with at least one Vin on the car, there is almost never the chance for inspection by a cop once the first title is printed.

The comment that the police were not interested to pursue the theft--this is to be expected, the statute of limitations on the theft ran out decades before. The original thief can make a movie or run for president, whatever, and not worry about being arrested. But the car remains "stolen" property of someone. Yes, there is other law that limits the time for the original owner to retrieve their property, but this timer starts after they know where it is.  Law created around Nazi art recovery during the Schwarzenegger-as-governor time was because many of the victims/families were unsettled for decades....

Simon, no, just having a title in hand doesn't protect the purchaser, a stolen (something, fill in the blank) is legally called "void title" so that even a subsequent innocent purchaser becomes the next victim. Surprisingly, a co-worker lost the Mazda RX-7 he bought even when he was given a clear title (somehow the car was used by the seller to get yet another loan, the clear title he was handed that showed the lien was released wasn't the operative title...).

After giving the owner a long time to do the right thing (which he didn't do), is actually not a moral judgment, its the law--- for anyone to knowingly sell stolen property makes them (lets use a capital letter) a Criminal. This has nothing to do with doing a good deed daily, whoever has the car Here should know they have a chance of going to jail.

Actually most states have a VIN inspection requirement to title an out of state car. Nevada is pretty strict, I know of someone who purchased a restored Tiger and because the VIN plate rivets were new they refused to title it in NV.

Into the past in Europe when a car was seized by a ministry and the title was lost , the vin was cut out and when it was sold by the ministry on an auction the car was sold witout a title. ( only with BoS from ministry)

The new owner can make a choice . dismantle the car or bring it back on the road after a technical inspection and get a new (short)  VIN .

Maybe this was happened with the Pantera above ?

Newer cars use a 17 caracter VIN, while older cars  can use only a few,  3 or something like that.

By sample , classic cars from Texas USA  has most of the time also an different VIN plate into the doorpost poprivet ( special) have notice this on a ERA Cobra , but also on Mangusta and a few others.

Simon

The VIN for my white push button Pantera was stamped in many places on the car.  These stampings were in addition to the primary stamping on the pedal box.  I could see the extra stampings because the car was disassembled.  The car was #1313 and the numbers 313 were stamped in the center of themetal that supports the dash.  They were also stamped in the doors and the headlight buckets, and perhaps other places.  I think DeTomaso slowed down on the amount of stampings on the later cars.  With disassembly, the actual VIN for the car might be found.  The workers doing the stamping were economical and only stamped 313 instead of 1313.

These things are always messy. Its not unusual to hear of a disputed Euro serial stamping from the 60s- 80s, especially if the car has a high value. Olczack's 'DeTomaso' book verifies at least one Pantera GT-4 was factory-restamped for their own reasons, according to a highly-placed DeTomaso employee.

There was a well publicised case awhile back of TWO Lamborghinis found by the CA DMV showing identical factory serials. We won't even get into the Ford GT-40s with the same serials on multiple cars rebuilt from legitimate parts of  wrecked racers. I've even heard of pre-WW2 Bugattis having the same situation.

@joules posted:

Actually most states have a VIN inspection requirement to title an out of state car. Nevada is pretty strict, I know of someone who purchased a restored Tiger and because the VIN plate rivets were new they refused to title it in NV.

Had a sheriff deputy look at my car in NC. He also called out the rivets. I told him the tag had never been removed. I hadn't cut a hole in the carpet over the pedal box so he could look at that stamp but he was ok with just the VIN plate.