I want to build a stroker motor and I was wondering which block is better to use. I want to keep my stock motor.
Richard T.
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quote:which block is better to use
Ah, folks will give you all kinds of reasons why one block is better than the other.
In my heart, Panteras are supposed to have Clevelands. They make an awesome stroker. And you won't have to re-invent the wheel to put it back in.
Larry
Yea, you will get tons of opinions. I do like a Cleveland, and they make tons of HP. And now that new blocks are or are going to be made in aluminum and iron, the Cleveland is a good way to go.
However, There are more options available for the Windsor. There are tons of low cost stroker kits, many different blocks, dozens of heads, and you can get EFI intake manifolds. Probably cheaper too! But with a windsor, you will need to make new motor mounts and new alternator/ac mount and hook up hoses differently.
It is all up to you. No real reason to do one or the other. Just personal preference.
I still run an iron cleveland. When I blow it up (not if, when), I may choose a windsor or even a stroked Modular. Or perhaps that new engine ford is making and is not yet released.
However, There are more options available for the Windsor. There are tons of low cost stroker kits, many different blocks, dozens of heads, and you can get EFI intake manifolds. Probably cheaper too! But with a windsor, you will need to make new motor mounts and new alternator/ac mount and hook up hoses differently.
It is all up to you. No real reason to do one or the other. Just personal preference.
I still run an iron cleveland. When I blow it up (not if, when), I may choose a windsor or even a stroked Modular. Or perhaps that new engine ford is making and is not yet released.
You can purchase a 540 bhp, 408 cubic inch Cleveland stroker crate motor from MME Racing for $6000. this is the most bang for your buck on the market.
Both production blocks are thin wall castings and have the same limitations as far as how much abuse they can withstand before they crack.
The Cleveland with its 9.2" deck height can be bored/stroked to 408 cubic inches. The Windsor with its 9.5" deck height can be bored/stroked to 433 cubic inches. Both blocks are thinwall castings and are not safe to take beyond 4.030" bore.
You may hear that the Cleveland oiling system is not as good as the Windsor, and that is true to a point. However, there is a way to properly set up the Cleveland block to overcome this situation entirely. MME Racing performs this work on their crate motor.
Aftermarket Windsor racing blocks are available in either 9.2" or 9.5" deck heights, with maximum bore capabilities of 4.185". With that bore the 9.2" block can be stroked to 440 cubic inches, the 9.5" block to 467 cubic inches.
An aftermarket Cleveland block with heavy cylinder walls, allowing bores to 4.165" (or 4.185", I can't remember) is in development. It will have a Windsor style oil system.
There is a hybrid block known as the Fontana block that is a little bit Windsor, and a little bit Cleveland. It can be had in either deck height, and with the same bore limitations as well.
which block you need really depends upon what you plan to do with it (serious racing verses play racing or street use), your budget, your displacement goals, your power or rpm goals.
Cleveland cylinder heads are by far the better design cylinder head, but reasonable power goals can be achieved with Windsor heads too. Sometimes intake manifold choice can dictate which direction to go, this subject is too broad for me to delve into now.
Finally, switching to a Windsor motor involves some new equipment like coolant system plumbing, engine accesory brackets and headers. A headache that is avoided by sticking with the Cleveland.
Did I cover everything guys?
cowboy from hell
Both production blocks are thin wall castings and have the same limitations as far as how much abuse they can withstand before they crack.
The Cleveland with its 9.2" deck height can be bored/stroked to 408 cubic inches. The Windsor with its 9.5" deck height can be bored/stroked to 433 cubic inches. Both blocks are thinwall castings and are not safe to take beyond 4.030" bore.
You may hear that the Cleveland oiling system is not as good as the Windsor, and that is true to a point. However, there is a way to properly set up the Cleveland block to overcome this situation entirely. MME Racing performs this work on their crate motor.
Aftermarket Windsor racing blocks are available in either 9.2" or 9.5" deck heights, with maximum bore capabilities of 4.185". With that bore the 9.2" block can be stroked to 440 cubic inches, the 9.5" block to 467 cubic inches.
An aftermarket Cleveland block with heavy cylinder walls, allowing bores to 4.165" (or 4.185", I can't remember) is in development. It will have a Windsor style oil system.
There is a hybrid block known as the Fontana block that is a little bit Windsor, and a little bit Cleveland. It can be had in either deck height, and with the same bore limitations as well.
which block you need really depends upon what you plan to do with it (serious racing verses play racing or street use), your budget, your displacement goals, your power or rpm goals.
Cleveland cylinder heads are by far the better design cylinder head, but reasonable power goals can be achieved with Windsor heads too. Sometimes intake manifold choice can dictate which direction to go, this subject is too broad for me to delve into now.
Finally, switching to a Windsor motor involves some new equipment like coolant system plumbing, engine accesory brackets and headers. A headache that is avoided by sticking with the Cleveland.
Did I cover everything guys?
cowboy from hell
George,
Yep, covered most everything, except for goofballs like myself who are torn between....stroke or not to stroke, that is the question.
Goal: 450+hp, streetable horsepower, dependable horsepower. Reliable to drive 1000 miles to a car show or participate in a long club cruise.
However, not be embaressed by a corvette or rice rocket leaving me in the dust.
I would love any advice, my other car has a
427 side oiler, it surely lets me have my cake and eat it to.
Help??????
Daniel
PS.
the hesitation for stroking is purely revability & sustained RPMs
Yep, covered most everything, except for goofballs like myself who are torn between....stroke or not to stroke, that is the question.
Goal: 450+hp, streetable horsepower, dependable horsepower. Reliable to drive 1000 miles to a car show or participate in a long club cruise.
However, not be embaressed by a corvette or rice rocket leaving me in the dust.
I would love any advice, my other car has a
427 side oiler, it surely lets me have my cake and eat it to.
Help??????
Daniel
PS.
the hesitation for stroking is purely revability & sustained RPMs
Daniel,
I'd like to point out that the strokes we're talking about will not inhibit high rpm operation. MME's 427 Clevor stroker crate motor makes 700 bhp at 7000 rpm, that's with a 4" stroke.
You're not specific what you mean by revability & sustained rpm. What red line, how long sustained, whats the use of the vehicle? 500 bhp, 7000 rpm sustained (track racing) will eventually crack the production block. Mark McKeown at MME racing has some tricks he performs to the motors to help them survive hard use without block failure.
The stock 4V heads want to operate over a powerband of 3000 to 7000 rpm on a standard displacement short block. This is where they are happy, and really start to show their stuff. Design a motor around this power band with a litttle head work, a good exhaust system, 750 Holley HP carb, your choice of Blue Thunder, Holley Strip Dominator or Parker Funnelweb intake, a solid roller cam, and you've easily met your power goals. You'll want to do the oil system mods, a good oil pan, some good chrome moly rods (6" length) and fordged pistons. The stock crank is OK. Have the recip assembly dynamically balanced. Rock N Roll.
This is the classic Cleveland formula for 500 bhp. Guys were doing this 30 years ago (flat tappet cams back then, not roller cams). The stuff that made SBC guys crap their pants. Easily 100 more bhp than their weezer motors made in the same state of tune. That was big block territory back then, out of a 351 cube motor.
cowboy from hell
I'd like to point out that the strokes we're talking about will not inhibit high rpm operation. MME's 427 Clevor stroker crate motor makes 700 bhp at 7000 rpm, that's with a 4" stroke.
You're not specific what you mean by revability & sustained rpm. What red line, how long sustained, whats the use of the vehicle? 500 bhp, 7000 rpm sustained (track racing) will eventually crack the production block. Mark McKeown at MME racing has some tricks he performs to the motors to help them survive hard use without block failure.
The stock 4V heads want to operate over a powerband of 3000 to 7000 rpm on a standard displacement short block. This is where they are happy, and really start to show their stuff. Design a motor around this power band with a litttle head work, a good exhaust system, 750 Holley HP carb, your choice of Blue Thunder, Holley Strip Dominator or Parker Funnelweb intake, a solid roller cam, and you've easily met your power goals. You'll want to do the oil system mods, a good oil pan, some good chrome moly rods (6" length) and fordged pistons. The stock crank is OK. Have the recip assembly dynamically balanced. Rock N Roll.
This is the classic Cleveland formula for 500 bhp. Guys were doing this 30 years ago (flat tappet cams back then, not roller cams). The stuff that made SBC guys crap their pants. Easily 100 more bhp than their weezer motors made in the same state of tune. That was big block territory back then, out of a 351 cube motor.
cowboy from hell
Revabilaty? You mean crisp response to throttle? Use an aluminum flywheel.
What's wrong with a good old 500hp 357 Cleveland?
It's a very simple creature.
Fragilaty of a Cleveland is ridiculous. 500hp @ 7,500rpm for 500 miles = broken block. That is the scenario for Cleveland failures. From what I have seen 427 Fords fall into that catagory as well. But that is NASCAR stuff.
A production 351w block is just as "fragile". Certainly more cubes, particularly on the stroke are going to flex that puppie up more.
All Jack Rousch did to the production stock block Clevelands was restrict oil to the lifters on one side and sleeve the lifter bores.
Did they break those blocks? Sure. They were launching at 8,500rpm. They broke a lot more then just blocks. They were limited by rules. Street cars aren't. Put a billet main girdle in it. Rousch was using main cap straps because of the rules.
Nice presentation GP. Very objective. Bravo.
What's wrong with a good old 500hp 357 Cleveland?
It's a very simple creature.
Fragilaty of a Cleveland is ridiculous. 500hp @ 7,500rpm for 500 miles = broken block. That is the scenario for Cleveland failures. From what I have seen 427 Fords fall into that catagory as well. But that is NASCAR stuff.
A production 351w block is just as "fragile". Certainly more cubes, particularly on the stroke are going to flex that puppie up more.
All Jack Rousch did to the production stock block Clevelands was restrict oil to the lifters on one side and sleeve the lifter bores.
Did they break those blocks? Sure. They were launching at 8,500rpm. They broke a lot more then just blocks. They were limited by rules. Street cars aren't. Put a billet main girdle in it. Rousch was using main cap straps because of the rules.
Nice presentation GP. Very objective. Bravo.
quote:solid roller cam
George, how many horsepower would you give up by going with a hydraulic roller cam instead of solid? I don't want to be pulling off the valve covers every week or so. But how many ponies would I give up for ease of maintanace???
My goal is the same as Daniel's. 450 hp with good streetabilty. I would like to stay with the stock look so a cleveland sounds like the road to take. Is it worth it to go with the aluminum heads. By the time I rework stock heads I'm close to the cost of a set Edelbrock heads?
Richard T.
Richard T.
Are the aluminum heads worth it? Very much so.
I don't think the Edelbrock heads, out of the box, are the way to go.
For a minimal amount of effort with a high return heads like the CHI 3v would be an excellent choice. But don't tell George I said so, ok?
I don't think the Edelbrock heads, out of the box, are the way to go.
For a minimal amount of effort with a high return heads like the CHI 3v would be an excellent choice. But don't tell George I said so, ok?
quote:Originally posted by RichardT:
...Is it worth it to go with the aluminum heads. By the time I rework stock heads I'm close to the cost of a set Edelbrock heads...
In my opinion it is better to invest the money in alloy heads, rather than in reworking the iron heads, UNLESS somebody is wanting to keep the motor looking externally stock.
However, as is often the case, the Edelbrock heads are not the best performing heads out of the box. Both the 2V heads manufactured by CHI and AFD are superior heads out of the box.
In the Windsor & SBC world, the Edelbrock heads never win the head comparison tests, yet the Edelbrock heads have a loyal following. The Edelbrock heads can be ported to be competitive. I'm sure that is the case with the Edelbrock Cleveland heads too. However, out of the box, the Edelbrock 2V Cleveland heads don't perform any better than a set of iron Australian 302C heads, so in my opinion they are not a good deal.
For a 450 bhp motor my recommendation is the 2V heads of either AFD or CHI. If you feel you may decide in the future to build a more powerful motor, then the 3V heads of CHI would be a good investment. The 3V heads are available in 3 port sizes, and for a standard displacement motor, you'll want the smallest ports. The exhaust port location of the 3V head is slightly raised and may lead to problems fitting the headers in the Pantera chassis, this situation is avoided by using the 2V heads.
The flow curve of the alloy heads doesn't flatten out until above 0.600" intake valve lift, so they compliment the lobe design of modern street roller cams out of the box, they feature evolved versions of the Cleveland combustion chambers, more centrally located spark plugs and the small 2V ports flow like the iron 4V ports, but at higher velocity which makes for better throttle respoonse and a powerband that kicks in at lower rpm.
If somebody has a 4V intake manifold they are especially fond of, CHI makes a 4V head too. This head features a 3V intake port that has been tapered to match the large opening of the 4V intake manifolds. The 4V head also has a 2V style exhaust port.
cowboy from hell
Richard. My 393 has 560hp and was locally built. If I was to do it again, I would without question, buy a crate motor from MME. Proven and reasonably priced. Built with a reputation, not hot air. I spent WAY more than $6k on mine. AND it comes dyno tuned. Just drop it in and drive.
Will
Will
quote:The exhaust port location of the 3V head is slightly raised and may lead to problems fitting the headers in the Pantera chassis, this situation is avoided by
No problem using the 3V heads.
Will,
which or who's exhaust system is installed in your car?
cowboy from hell
which or who's exhaust system is installed in your car?
cowboy from hell
Just my 2 cents, spend a few more bucks and get the best ie 370"/528 HP Cleveland Aluminum OEM
Ford block and Brodix heads dry sump much more
the ultimate Pantera motor. In my garage and for sale now. Dyno sheet and parts list available upon request.
Joe mendes 831-726-1118 or s.mendes@juno.com
Ford block and Brodix heads dry sump much more
the ultimate Pantera motor. In my garage and for sale now. Dyno sheet and parts list available upon request.
Joe mendes 831-726-1118 or s.mendes@juno.com