getting close to getting her on the road, today while working on it I depressed the clutch but now it doesn't come back up, has only about 1" of total stroke, spring is good, clutch fluid looks good, any ideas?
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Bad seals in the master cylinder.
should I rebuild or replace the whole unit?
Search ebay for a early 70's alfa romero spider one. That is what I have working with my stock slave cylinder and center force clutch.
great suggestion thanks
is the slave cylinder Alfa also
Not sure but here is a pantera specific one on ebay. You might get a better price from one of the vendors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DETOMA...em4ae744de14&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DETOMA...em4ae744de14&vxp=mtr
http://www.international-auto....id=2618&posid=881555
I think this one is the same however you need to use the rod with the hole in it from your old one.
I think this one is the same however you need to use the rod with the hole in it from your old one.
ok I ordered master cylinder, slave cylinder and braided SS line today, thanks guys for the help
took the slave cylinder off, it seems to be locked up, guessing that made the seals blow in the master cylinder, hopefully new parts here next Tue/Wed
quote:Originally posted by dad210:
...master cylinder, slave cylinder and braided SS line...
did you get all from a pantera vendor or the fiat/alfa site?
Dad, there is a return spring inside the clutch slave cylinder. Not changing the clutch fluid for decades allows enough water to collect to RUST the spring in two! If this happens, the slave piston may not return properly. Second thing that may have happened is, for whatever reason, you used more clutch pedal than what the system was 'used to'. Varnish builds up at the ends of travel in cylinders and the slave piston may have over-traveled into a place where it bound up.
Disassembling the simple assembly and cleaning the cylinder & piston with scotch-brite may restore its function. Do NOT power-hone: there's only one seal in the ass'y and if the cylinder is only slightly enlarged or bell-mouthed, you may build a leak where there was none before.
The reason I'm suggesting these is, brand new reproduction clutch slaves have a recent history of failure out-of-the-box, so if your present cylinder does NOT leak, its worth trying to resolve the sticking rather than replacing the whole cylinder & chancing more trouble.
Disassembling the simple assembly and cleaning the cylinder & piston with scotch-brite may restore its function. Do NOT power-hone: there's only one seal in the ass'y and if the cylinder is only slightly enlarged or bell-mouthed, you may build a leak where there was none before.
The reason I'm suggesting these is, brand new reproduction clutch slaves have a recent history of failure out-of-the-box, so if your present cylinder does NOT leak, its worth trying to resolve the sticking rather than replacing the whole cylinder & chancing more trouble.
quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:quote:Originally posted by dad210:
...master cylinder, slave cylinder and braided SS line...
did you get all from a pantera vendor or the fiat/alfa site?
ordered all from Pantera Vendor
quote:Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Dad, there is a return spring inside the clutch slave cylinder. Not changing the clutch fluid for decades allows enough water to collect to RUST the spring in two! If this happens, the slave piston may not return properly. Second thing that may have happened is, for whatever reason, you used more clutch pedal than what the system was 'used to'. Varnish builds up at the ends of travel in cylinders and the slave piston may have over-traveled into a place where it bound up.
Disassembling the simple assembly and cleaning the cylinder & piston with scotch-brite may restore its function. Do NOT power-hone: there's only one seal in the ass'y and if the cylinder is only slightly enlarged or bell-mouthed, you may build a leak where there was none before.
The reason I'm suggesting these is, brand new reproduction clutch slaves have a recent history of failure out-of-the-box, so if your present cylinder does NOT leak, its worth trying to resolve the sticking rather than replacing the whole cylinder & chancing more trouble.
-great tip Bosswrench thanks for the info, will take apart and inspect, is there a replacement seal available?
Not as a DeTomaso/Ford seal kit. Those slaves were cheaply built like several others, so no rebuilding was ever contemplated. Some cross-references exist: FIAT 850s, Alfa, a few Chev pickups all with the same hydraulic slave piston size. A pitted bore will not seal even with new parts and honing the bore oversize will often not seal either.
IMHO, you can 'fix' the problem better along with a valuable upgrade, by replacing the slave cylinder with a stainless steel long-throw slave cylinder. It is a true bolt-in. Obviously, a stainless steel cylinder with an aluminum piston and a viton seal will never again corrode, no matter how neglected the system becomes.
The longer hydraulic throw disengages the clutch further than stock, which pays benefits in extending transmission synchro life. Replacing ZF synchros due to wear is unbelievably expensive and requires one to remove & ship the 155 lb transaxle interstate along with a potential second mortgage.... The drawback is a slightly increased clutch pedal pressure. Most drivers- including my 105 lb wife, do not notice the increase but if you do and cannot adapt, a different clutch pressure plate will fix that, at increased cost.
For the bargain hunters among us, the long- throw stainless slave is NOT a stock part for anything and has no cross-reference. It is a custom casting done by the Pantera vendors specifically for this application. It is rebuildable (vendors stock kits) although I'm unaware of any that have needed rebuilding in the 10 yrs or so they have been available.
What else can go wrong? The clutch master and slave tend to wear as an assembly and it has happened that replacing one part causes the other half of the assembly to fail from increased pressure. And again, the clutch master cylinder is a DeTomaso-specific part that does not cross-reference to anything else (the bolt pattern is narrower than other stock parts). But master cylinder failures are less common than slaves.
IMHO, you can 'fix' the problem better along with a valuable upgrade, by replacing the slave cylinder with a stainless steel long-throw slave cylinder. It is a true bolt-in. Obviously, a stainless steel cylinder with an aluminum piston and a viton seal will never again corrode, no matter how neglected the system becomes.
The longer hydraulic throw disengages the clutch further than stock, which pays benefits in extending transmission synchro life. Replacing ZF synchros due to wear is unbelievably expensive and requires one to remove & ship the 155 lb transaxle interstate along with a potential second mortgage.... The drawback is a slightly increased clutch pedal pressure. Most drivers- including my 105 lb wife, do not notice the increase but if you do and cannot adapt, a different clutch pressure plate will fix that, at increased cost.
For the bargain hunters among us, the long- throw stainless slave is NOT a stock part for anything and has no cross-reference. It is a custom casting done by the Pantera vendors specifically for this application. It is rebuildable (vendors stock kits) although I'm unaware of any that have needed rebuilding in the 10 yrs or so they have been available.
What else can go wrong? The clutch master and slave tend to wear as an assembly and it has happened that replacing one part causes the other half of the assembly to fail from increased pressure. And again, the clutch master cylinder is a DeTomaso-specific part that does not cross-reference to anything else (the bolt pattern is narrower than other stock parts). But master cylinder failures are less common than slaves.
this car has sat since 1984, 30k miles on it, I'm draining and lubing everything, something like this is not a surprise to me, amazing how good it runs, I haven't driven it yet except in and out of the garage, have the coolant system all redone, and some other things, 1-2 weeks I should be able to drive it, way excited, thank you very much for your excellent and experienced wisdom, I have read a ton on the site, hope I'm not missing anything as I start down this new path
If the car has sat since the '80s, CHANGE ALL THE RUBBER FUEL LINES FIRST! Hoses made before about 1995 harden and crack from the witch's brew we're being sold as "gasoline" these days and car fires are 3x more common in older machines. There was a really good article on hoses in the POCA Newsletter last month; not all 'fuel-safe hoses' today are safe in all situations.
Jack from Kalamazoo
Jack from Kalamazoo
Boss,
great tip thanks, did all hoses and even fuel pump, runs good but thinking I should switch to a modern carb that is fuel compatable, your thoughts?
great tip thanks, did all hoses and even fuel pump, runs good but thinking I should switch to a modern carb that is fuel compatable, your thoughts?
Do you have the original Autolite Spread Bore, or a later replacement?
Rocky
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
Do you have the original Autolite Spread Bore, or a later replacement?
Rocky
original Autolite spread bore still
Me personally, I would be interested in running it for a while, and see how it does, before swapping it out, but I am sure wiser heads than mine will weigh in with recommendations.
I would just want to be sure gas is not leaking out of it anywhere.
You probably have enough to do just to get your car safely driving, without the added expense of a $800 carb, plus install and basic tuning.
Rocky
I would just want to be sure gas is not leaking out of it anywhere.
You probably have enough to do just to get your car safely driving, without the added expense of a $800 carb, plus install and basic tuning.
Rocky
my thoughts exactly, get everything working to see what I have and then make some decisions, it runs very well as far as starting, idling and revving, should take it on the first drive next week after I finish the clutch and go thru the brakes (I have tested brakes in the drive way so far but still need to bleed them); thank you very much for weighing in, would appreciate everyone else s opinions too
Autolite and the Motorcraft 4bbls: very difficult to find anyone competent to work on them and since they were never very popular, info, rebuild kits, etc also quite scarce. You're fighting an uphill battle to get that carb to work right with decent mileage. The last one of these I saw on a Pantera, the owner was proud that he'd gotten it to 10 mpg!
I would look for a generic Holley 4bbl, around 600 cfm size. Throttle response & mileage will be outstanding- mine gave 25 mpg and ran the car an honest 150 mph but wore out after 20 years. A generic 750 will yield an instant 30 horses, 2-3 mpg less with a softer throttle response. If you do around town running at less than 4000 rpms, get the 600. If you want to go faster and can afford to pay the tab, go for the 750. Stay far away from the Holley 'Avenger' series; they are CA emission carbs that are very close to impossible to tune, according to pro tuners as well as amateurs like me. I was given a brand new one and spent 3 weeks trying to get it to work; finally gave it to yet another guy. Also stay away from double-pumper Holleys: they are racing carbs that are always jetted rich and usually need an expert, sometimes with a dynom to set them up properly for the street.
Along with the carb you'll need an aluminum intake manifold; there are bolt-on adapters that let you run a Holley on the stock iron spread=bore intake but they often lift the carb & air cleaner up into the engine screen, causing other problems.
I would look for a generic Holley 4bbl, around 600 cfm size. Throttle response & mileage will be outstanding- mine gave 25 mpg and ran the car an honest 150 mph but wore out after 20 years. A generic 750 will yield an instant 30 horses, 2-3 mpg less with a softer throttle response. If you do around town running at less than 4000 rpms, get the 600. If you want to go faster and can afford to pay the tab, go for the 750. Stay far away from the Holley 'Avenger' series; they are CA emission carbs that are very close to impossible to tune, according to pro tuners as well as amateurs like me. I was given a brand new one and spent 3 weeks trying to get it to work; finally gave it to yet another guy. Also stay away from double-pumper Holleys: they are racing carbs that are always jetted rich and usually need an expert, sometimes with a dynom to set them up properly for the street.
Along with the carb you'll need an aluminum intake manifold; there are bolt-on adapters that let you run a Holley on the stock iron spread=bore intake but they often lift the carb & air cleaner up into the engine screen, causing other problems.
I've always been a bit of a contrarian so I have a 9000 series Carter AFB which flows 625 CFM and I find it a great unit for my purposes (active street). I think it is now made by Weber for Edelbrock.
Take a moment and check the tightness of the various screws that hold your carb together, particularly those that seal areas exposed to fuel. The paper gaskets tend to shrink a bit when they sit dry for a long time. Might help avoid a seep or a leak once you start driving around.
The fuel bowls on my Demon need a little snugging every spring.
The fuel bowls on my Demon need a little snugging every spring.