Consensus for Aluminum Shocks for Street?

quote:

Originally posted by A Hudson:
I've read the threads, kinda confused.

Looking for the best 'street' shock for our beloved Panteras.

I've done 'old school' and am ready for better ride/handling qualities, wouldn't mind some weight savings.

Would like a 'plug and play' solution, not requiring much if any customizing or cutting. No desire to do spring compressions and such. Just an 'average' DIYer here.

All opinions welcome.

Sir,
You can not get much better value and ease of installation than the "steel" body Konis. Plug and play. Even I was able to do it.

http://www.panteraplace.com/page212.htm

And if the yellow color bothers you(and I know it would !) You could paint them orange . This would require removing the springs etc.to get a nice finish.

I'd talk with Dennis Quella. He has a wealth of knowledge. Even better, he is willing to share it with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
I'd talk with Dennis Quella. He has a wealth of knowledge. Even better, he is willing to share it with you.

Thanks Jeff and Husker. Called Quella this morning, always pleasant there. Sent me a link, some info, looking to move forward on this.

Any other info super appreciated.

Any vehicle I've ever owned, since I was a kid, if Koni made a shock for that application, I installed them. I love the way Konis ride. Well dampened, but never harsh. Something the US shock manufacturers could never seem to do right. I don't like stiff & harsh shocks, and I don't like soft overly cushy shocks. I've never been happy with anything but Konis.

Mind you ... I don't buy the really expensive high end stuff for my cars either. I'm sure there's more expensive shocks that provide equal or better dampening and ride, but for my money, I buy Konis.

and yes ... #6018 has steel body Konis with the spring pre-load adjusters. The ride is typical Koni, perfect as far as I'm concerned.

G

Adams,

FWIW, I installed the Carrera QA1s and noticed no difference at all over the stock units (except the lower ride height adjustment). A friend installed the new Konis on his car and it seemed to me that the ride was better. My ass is way too numb to be more scientific than that, but if I was doing it again, I would spend the few $$ more and go with the Konis. I also prefer the less blingy appearance of them (not chromed). Installation of either is a bolt-on thing and you only need to make sure you get the spacers for mounting them properly in the wide Pantera brackets.

I see you're well down the slippery slope now.

Mark

I just purchased a set of Konis from Quella a couple of weeks ago. I love the way my car sits now. They also were very easy to install since Quella provides all the spacers for installation and presets the shocks for the typical Pantera.

My car has about 22,000 original miles and had the stock shocks with factory spacers. I was shocked at how heavy and bulky the stock shocks truly are once they were out of the car. By the way, there is a little grinding that had to be done so that the shock hats did not hit the mounts – but that was no big deal. Quella provided written instructions on doing this too.

I have probably only put 20 or 30 miles on the car since my installation, and I love the ride. I think I am going to drop the nose about another ½ inch but I am going to wait a bit to see.

I also was concerned about the color of the shocks when I first thought about buying them. However, it is so hard to see them when the car is on the ground that it is now a non-issue.

Hope this helps in your decision making process.

And to just confuse matters worst. I will be offering these puppies very shortly.

Test fitting this weekend. Should also be plug and play. I will have a non-adjustable version, A single adjustable version, and an electronically controller version that can be controlled by a flip of a switch for comfort or sport modes.

I think a lot of the differences people find with shock comparison is as much to do with setup as to the differences in shock brand.
I have the adjustable QA1 alloy shocks installed.

What I mean about setup is I have always had a preference for soft springs, slightly stiffer dampening settings & stiff anti roll bars.
I’m shocked, (pardon the pun) as to the stiffness of some of the springs many Forum members are using.
I‘m using QA1 springs.
Front: 12-250, 12” spring 250 lb.
Rear: 12-400, 12” spring 400 lb.

Even with these light weight springs I can still pre-load them & adjust ride height.

Now this is really soft compared to what Forum members are running on their Pantera’s.
But I don’t have a problem with tires rubbing on fenders; (with 285’s on the front & 345’s on the rear) the car is really comfortable, no noticeable body roll in hard corners.

My point being is that if you have stiff springs you have no choice but to run stiff dampening settings.
After all, the dampening is there to control the spring in compression & rebound, if the dampening setting is not stiff enough for the spring the car will continue to bounce like a pogo stick.
So with stiff springs you have no choice but to run heavy dampening & thus you will have a very harsh ride & with low profile tires the situation is exacerbated.

With soft springs you can run much lighter dampening, or as I prefer, slightly stiffen the dampening to create a firmer ride, but without the harshness created by stiff springs.
In roll the heavier anti roll bars stop excessive body roll.
I’m running 1” anti roll bars, cornering is rock solid & the car remains flat during cornering.

The car is low, (around 4.25”) very comfortable to drive, no harsh bumps & handles really well, the softer springing stops the wheels skipping over bumps which aids traction.

Just a different approach I guess.

Regards,
Tony

This has been super educational. Some of you may take your knowledge for granted, but it helps the uninitiated greatly.

Edge, thanks for the input on spring rates. I don't want a harsh ride; just good street handling .

And yes Mark, I have slid head first into slipperly slopeville.


If its ANY help, I do every single solitary thing with an 'eye' toward originality.

> The 'new' seat leather in the old DeTomaso pattern.

> The modified Ansa tips, (now stainless from 3" tubes) painted orange with Ansa stickers.

> Whatever shocks I get will be painted Ariston blue or 'old' Koni red-orange if I go that route.

> More obsessive compulsive stuff like that. Yes, I painted my new condenser blade Daytona yellow like the factory one.

I know, it's ridiculous, but its my car. So there. All the bits are saved, all very reversible.

Thanks again folks, and the more info the better, but so far it sounds the Konis are the pick.

The Koni’s I purchased from Quella came with 450lb springs on the front and 550lbs on the back. The ride does not seem to stiff to me and it sure seems to corner nice in my opinion. I am not a shock/spring expert so I relied on Quella’s recommendations and those of some of the other forum members. I also figured since I am not building my car to race that the standard Quella set-up would be just fine.

Just for your info the Hyperco Springs that Quella installed on mine are powder coated a dark blue. However, I know there are some other brands of springs that are different colors or you could re-powder coat the Hypercos.

Good luck and I applaud you on the efforts you have gone to keep your car looking original.

quote:

Thanks again folks, and the more info the better, but so far it sounds the Konis are the pick.

May not want to write off my shocks just yet. And they will be using Hyperco Springs that are powdercoated Blue. Same springs Garvino mentioned.

ZO6 Pantera,

Let us know how your testing goes on your new shocks this weekend. They are a good looking shock. I like all the different versions that you will be offering - especially the electronically controller version.

I look forward to hearing how they fit and ride. I'm sure they will be a great product just like all of your other Pantera offerings.

I have Alden Eagles. They are very stiff. This may be partly due to the spring rates, but they were set up for a Pantera (I think they are Hall shocks) so they can't be too far off.

I don't notice any body roll at all when driving hard in the mountains. These may be just the ticket for some folks, but I would'nt buy them again.

One of these days I'm going to replace them, so this discussion is relevant to me too!!

Later, Mooso.

quote:

Originally posted by Z06 Pantera:

quote:

Thanks again folks, and the more info the better, but so far it sounds the Konis are the pick.

May not want to write off my shocks just yet. And they will be using Hyperco Springs that are powdercoated Blue. Same springs Garvino mentioned.

Hey Scott, I've definitely not chosen yet, especially since you're so close to completion. Let me know. Sure love your other products.

This is the look I'd hope to achieve (or the red/orange Koni look). What spring rates are available? Who builds that shock?

And Garvino, thanks for the compliment. I like the original look but modern improvements, especially in reliability, safety, and - let's face it - performance!

quote:

Originally posted by mooso:
I have Alden Eagles. They are very stiff. This may be partly due to the spring rates, but they were set up for a Pantera (I think they are Hall shocks) so they can't be too far off.

I don't notice any body roll at all when driving hard in the mountains. These may be just the ticket for some folks, but I would'nt buy them again.

One of these days I'm going to replace them, so this discussion is relevant to me too!!

Later, Mooso.

On my red car I have the aluminum Alden as well, adjustable top and bottom. I keep lowering the dial to try and soften up the ride, and am now at 5 on top and 2 on the bottom. However now it still seems kind of stiff, but too bouncy (if that makes any sense if you can have stiff and bouncy...that's what she said ). So, that ride just didn't feel right. Talked to Byars about it since that is where the shocks originally came from and Bob insicated it has stiff springs in it for better cornering. So, I think I am going to dial it up to be stronger again, something like 7 and 3. My fillings may come out, but at least I can take mean corners at 60. Not exactly sure what the top and bottom dials adjust. I like the shocks, but just somewhat stiffie. On my Group 4 I have Koni shocks with chrome Group 5 springs (whatever that means?). In my opinion that rides and handles the best.

quote:

On my red car I have the aluminum Alden as well, adjustable top and bottom. I keep lowering the dial to try and soften up the ride, and am now at 5 on top and 2 on the bottom. However now it still seems kind of stiff, but too bouncy (if that makes any sense if you can have stiff and bouncy...that's what she said ). So, that ride just didn't feel right. Talked to Byars about it since that is where the shocks originally came from and Bob insicated it has stiff springs in it for better cornering. So, I think I am going to dial it up to be stronger again, something like 7 and 3. My fillings may come out, but at least I can take mean corners at 60. Not exactly sure what the top and bottom dials adjust. I like the shocks, but just somewhat stiffie. On my Group 4 I have Koni shocks with chrome Group 5 springs (whatever that means?). In my opinion that rides and handles the best.

The issue you are having with "stiff & bouncy" is what I was talking about.
You backed off the dampening settings as you wanted to soften the ride, but it turns into a pogo stick, keeps bouncing.
Thats mainly the rebound setting being too soft.
This is the situation where the springs are way too stiff & you simply cannot back off the dampening without seriously compromising performance.
Cornering stiffness is what the anti roll bars are for, thats their job, to minimise roll in corners.
Springs hold up the vehicles weight, give you ride comfort & aid traction.
The Anti roll bars, (sway bars) do contribute some to the vehicle stiffness, but mainly only during cornering.

regards,
Tony.

Tony is completely correct IMO. When in doubt choose a lower spring rate. It is easier to achieve handling and performance with a low spring rate and a stiff stabilizer bar or shock.

quote:

Originally posted by Z06 Pantera:
Tony is completely correct IMO. When in doubt choose a lower spring rate. It is easier to achieve handling and performance with a low spring rate and a stiff stabilizer bar or shock.

Not sure, but maybe it depends on how fast you plan on driving regarding spring stiffness. My red car with the aluminum shocks seems just right at high speed, but a little stiff when just tooling around the hood. It is not bad at low speed, but I do notice the stiffness is a little greater at lower speed.

In motorsport certain aspects of the chassis set up are varied from track to track, there is no one set-up good for every track. Teams can spend a day or a month preparing the chassis for race day. A chassis can be set up for the preferences of a driver too.

The same is true for high performance street cars. A street car can't be set up for every particular road, but it can be set up for the general use of the vehicle and the driving "style" of the owner. There's no one chassis set-up good for every person, we use our cars in differing applications and we all drive at differing levels of speed and aggression.

While compliance in the suspension is good, the car should only bottom out on the pavement, or against the suspension bumpers, every once in a while, on the fastest - biggest bumps. Bottoming out is very stressful for both the driver and the chassis. Obviously, the lower a car is, the faster it is driven, the more aggressive it is driven, the stiffer the suspension must be to prevent frequent bottoming and to give the chassis poise when driven that way.

Race car or sports car suspensions are limited in how soft the springs can be and how stiff the anti-sway bars can be for two reasons (1) the stiffer the anti-sway bars are, the less independent the suspension is, and (2) it is quite possible to make the anti-sway bars so stiff they lift the inside front tire in the corners, which reduces cornering traction; needless to say, that's too stiff. The 1" anti-sway bars available for the Pantera do this. If springs that are too soft are coupled with anti-sway bars that are too stiff the car would have suspension that is very compliant over bumps that effect both tires (gutters) but too stiff over bumps that effect only one tire (pot holes). The goal is to give the suspension balance betwen springs and anti-sway bars so it has the same amount of compliance over both types of road irregularities. This is not easy to achieve.

My point is not that soft springs & stiff anti-sway bars is the wrong approach, I've already stated there is a need for suspension compliance; my point is that there are limits in how far you can take this approach.

Certain choices in chassis components can add harshness to a chassis without accomplishing anything beneficial for the vehicles handling. The shock absorbers are perhaps the worst offenders in this aspect. Shock absorbers should dampen motion without introducing harshness into the ride, harshness is the opposite of compliance, and the whole subject of soft springs is really about compliance. You know a chassis is dialed in when you observe a vehicle traveling across a bumpy section of road, the tires are going up and down madly, but the vehicle and driver appear to be traveling smoothly, isolated from the bumps in the road.

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:

Not sure, but maybe it depends on how fast you plan on driving regarding spring stiffness. My red car with the aluminum shocks seems just right at high speed, but a little stiff when just tooling around the hood. It is not bad at low speed, but I do notice the stiffness is a little greater at lower speed.

Jan ... Koni shocks dampen well around town and at high speed. Its progressive dampening. The faster they compress (higher speeds) the more they dampen.

-G

Good points George.

I did fail to mention my Anti roll bars are 1" hollow heavy wall items, which give the charactaristics of a 7/8" solid bar, but without the physical weight.

So it could still lift an inside wheel I guess on really hard corners.
But I have not been able to obtain those G’s as the Tires let go before that happens.
The down side to 15” rubber.

Yes there are limits to how far you can take the soft spring approach.
This would be greatly limited by the individual cars wheel/fender set up & how much suspension clearance exists.

regards,
Tony.

Tony, the softer spring comments you've made make sense to me. I don't need a bone jarring ride, just compliance and shortish spring travel.

As a streeter with no pretense of tracking the car, I'm wondering what the 'stock' spring rates were. Certainly less than the 550 often quoted for rear. Anyone know?

quote:

As a streeter with no pretense of tracking the car, I'm wondering what the 'stock' spring rates were. Certainly less than the 550 often quoted for rear. Anyone know?

I will measure the stock spring rates and let you know.

My new shocks will be available hopefully by next week. For those that want to play with spring rates, I will be offering a service where I send you a few different springs for you to play with. More details on that later...

My new Shocks fit the Pantera VERY nicely and are a product produced via a joint venture between FOX racing shocks and Ride Tech known for their high tech Air Ride suspensions!

From Ted Mitchell's web site:
stock front spring rate= 235 lbs/in
Stock rear spring rate= 355 lbs/in
Note that after 40 yrs, OEM springs have likely weakened somewhat. GT5's used heavier springs frt/rear.

ALL stock Pantera suspension data is on Ted's free, no-log-in website, by the way.

Gas-charged Konis give 45lbs/in extra force just from the 350 psi gas pressure inside the shocks, so add that to your chosen spring rate.
As George says, ideal springs depend on how and where you drive, and I'll add, how heavy the car is. On our Pantera with 700lbs removed (so far), I use 300 frt/350 rear springs, plus the extra 45 lbs at each corner from the gas Konis. Larry Stock uses the same springs on his full-weight street/race Pantera.
Stock Koni bump-rubbers are larger in front than in the rear. BBSS racers 'tune' their suspension by adding/changing bump-rubbers. The main advantage of BBSS setups is, aerodynamics has more effect at lower speeds; downforce occurs sooner. The secondary advantage is more ride comfort and possibly more controllability.

Wow BossWrench, I didn't even know of that site. Thanks very much for sharing and for looking that up.

I'm leaning toward lighter springs, in the 400-450 range (rear) to hopefully gain the ride advantage I notice in some other performance cars with great cornering manners but good streetability. Helpful stuff. Thanks again.

On the the aluminum Alden, anyone know what the top adjustable top and bottom adjustable knobs do?

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
On the the aluminum Alden, anyone know what the top adjustable top and bottom adjustable knobs do?

On my set the bottom knob was the adjustment for ride firmess. Mine did not have the top adjustment knob, but it is my understanding that it controlled rebound.

I just measured my stock springs. Fronts were 450 and the rears were 700.

The new shocks are installed on the front and fit GREAT!



I started with 550 in the rear and 450 in the front. I think I will change the rears to 450 and try 350 on the front.

Also installing new brakes...



They are a bit bigger then the stock brakes.