What do you Mangusta guys make of this?
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IMHO, not much controversy, it seems like the guy knows enough to be dangerous, and not enough to really know. Even the letter from deTomaso says, they did not have the correct information.
The fact that it has a number that indicates it was early, but has the later style, well I mark that up to deTomaso and Ghia. I would not be surprised to find out that it was sitting someplace and then got make in 1970 and had the old vin. I would also not be surprised to hear that it had been changed.
When I worked there, we had a couple of Panteras that came in and we "updated" the car to the owners wishes. It was the way things were done for owners. If they wanted a GT5 Tail on an L, we did it.
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
The fact that it has a number that indicates it was early, but has the later style, well I mark that up to deTomaso and Ghia. I would not be surprised to find out that it was sitting someplace and then got make in 1970 and had the old vin. I would also not be surprised to hear that it had been changed.
When I worked there, we had a couple of Panteras that came in and we "updated" the car to the owners wishes. It was the way things were done for owners. If they wanted a GT5 Tail on an L, we did it.
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
quote:Originally posted by Wellis:
Sadly, I have heard that my Aunt and Santiago are shreading some paperwork as they move to the new place. I hope that it is not stuff that people would have wanted, but who knows.
We
Wellis, I am also sad because archives tell a story, and unfortunatelly I beleive the story of the Mangusta (and other cars preceding the Pantera) has not been written, The brand merits a
Denis
Instead of shredding, why not sell??? Understandable if it is sensitive material. The history of the marque belongs to the enthusiasts. More importantly, where are they going to?????????
My 2 cents are that it is very unlikely that the car was factory built this way. I would want to see the trail of ownership from new.
These things were usually owned by people who were somewhat knowledgeable of the breed. Particularly the Mangustas vs. the Panteras.
I would expect that the changes were made by a previous owner.
To me the owner is making an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof as far as I am concerned. Even if it is factory, considering the present condition of the car, the asking price is absolutely ridiculous.
Furthermore unfortunately the car is owned by a hardass, or should I say smartass, and there is absolutely no way to even reasonably approach the owner.
Sounds more like a "snakeoil" salesman to me. Look out for taking any of that stuff. You would be lucky to only go blind from it.
Just my opinion, but probably what many of you are thinking?
These things were usually owned by people who were somewhat knowledgeable of the breed. Particularly the Mangustas vs. the Panteras.
I would expect that the changes were made by a previous owner.
To me the owner is making an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof as far as I am concerned. Even if it is factory, considering the present condition of the car, the asking price is absolutely ridiculous.
Furthermore unfortunately the car is owned by a hardass, or should I say smartass, and there is absolutely no way to even reasonably approach the owner.
Sounds more like a "snakeoil" salesman to me. Look out for taking any of that stuff. You would be lucky to only go blind from it.
Just my opinion, but probably what many of you are thinking?
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
Doug, You may be a bit harsh. Only a handfull of DeTomaso cars have a clear ownership history and the registries have limited info on past owners. (FWIW I have contacted the last 6 owners of my car, but did not manage to get any info from them) I don't know the owner of this car, and I am also intrigued at some of the things on this car. Obviously had someone like SteveL or MikeD or Dana inpected it we would know more, but that isn't the case, and the owner does not appear to be a regular here at this forum. I personnally would love to spend just an hour to inspect and uncover a few things. The car may have been returned to the factory to upgrade to the later style headlamps (just as LP400 periscopo owners got the factory to retrofit the new style roof or it may have been done here, who knows until you inspect it.)
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Well, in my opinion as a Mangusta owner, (and I will admit I am not the most qualified expert out there) there is lots to be concerned about with this particular car. Aside from the very expensive missing parts, the slap-dash paint job (nicely hides whatever color it was before), the silly asking price (which the seller feels is "not far off what he expects to get"), the inconsistency of pop-up lights on a very early chassis number, there is one other minor inconsistency.
When I looked at the photo of the VIN stamped into the chassis the star that usually separates the 8MA from the chassis number is missing. While not totally surprising (my car is stamped 1114*8MA — backwards), I have not seen a Goose VIN WITHOUT the star stamped. I'm sure there are some out there, but this adds to the flags of warning for me.
One thing that would really be a good indicator is if someone could see the car and remove the stainless trim from the rear-most side window because the chassis number will be stamped into that part on the inside edge. It is found in a host of other locations as well as seen on www.mangustainternational.com (where I lifted the comparison vin number photo without permission).
Mark
When I looked at the photo of the VIN stamped into the chassis the star that usually separates the 8MA from the chassis number is missing. While not totally surprising (my car is stamped 1114*8MA — backwards), I have not seen a Goose VIN WITHOUT the star stamped. I'm sure there are some out there, but this adds to the flags of warning for me.
One thing that would really be a good indicator is if someone could see the car and remove the stainless trim from the rear-most side window because the chassis number will be stamped into that part on the inside edge. It is found in a host of other locations as well as seen on www.mangustainternational.com (where I lifted the comparison vin number photo without permission).
Mark
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Well, you've got to say that the serial number font and size looks correct. Yes, it is definitely missing the star, but then again, DeTomaso did things his way.....
As far as value goes, this is the eleventh Mangusta built, so it is very early. If the seller is claiming all these special things that the car has, then for someone to come up with this kind of money, he had better have some sort of proof. He is asking the amount for an extremely nice, finished, no stories Mangusta -- and this one is missing some pretty expensive stuff, like the steering wheel and rims; and that is off the top of my head. So again, to ask $100 large for a car that needs a total restoration with missing parts and no documentation -- it really does not add up and I would be extremely surprised if anyone raised their hand for that amount. To me, this car is worth all that a Mangusta with needs is worth. Again, a finished beautiful example is worth $100K at this time; so if that is true, then what is this one worth.........
I say it is a "fright pig" that will consume lots of money and not be worth one's time, or money, of a nice one for $100K when all is said and done (unless one wants to work for free doing the work yourself and still will have a large bill for all the parts that are missing; let alone the cost of paint, chrome work, and other costs like interior, etc....).
Food for thought.
Mark
As far as value goes, this is the eleventh Mangusta built, so it is very early. If the seller is claiming all these special things that the car has, then for someone to come up with this kind of money, he had better have some sort of proof. He is asking the amount for an extremely nice, finished, no stories Mangusta -- and this one is missing some pretty expensive stuff, like the steering wheel and rims; and that is off the top of my head. So again, to ask $100 large for a car that needs a total restoration with missing parts and no documentation -- it really does not add up and I would be extremely surprised if anyone raised their hand for that amount. To me, this car is worth all that a Mangusta with needs is worth. Again, a finished beautiful example is worth $100K at this time; so if that is true, then what is this one worth.........
I say it is a "fright pig" that will consume lots of money and not be worth one's time, or money, of a nice one for $100K when all is said and done (unless one wants to work for free doing the work yourself and still will have a large bill for all the parts that are missing; let alone the cost of paint, chrome work, and other costs like interior, etc....).
Food for thought.
Mark
quote:Originally posted by Denis C:
Doug, You may be a bit harsh. Only a handfull of DeTomaso cars have a clear ownership history and the registries have limited info on past owners. (FWIW I have contacted the last 6 owners of my car, but did not manage to get any info from them) I don't know the owner of this car, and I am also intrigued at some of the things on this car. Obviously had someone like SteveL or MikeD or Dana inpected it we would know more, but that isn't the case, and the owner does not appear to be a regular here at this forum. I personnally would love to spend just an hour to inspect and uncover a few things. The car may have been returned to the factory to upgrade to the later style headlamps (just as LP400 periscopo owners got the factory to retrofit the new style roof or it may have been done here, who knows until you inspect it.)
Ebay is a strange medium but it is also where you can find rare items anywhere on the planet. The seller can start the auction at 1$ (no listing fee) let the auction work his way up from there and hope he gets a descent price, or he can list it BuyItNow at 100K (pay $125) and take the best offer from there; a local buyer at 25k might be a better sell less trouble than an overseas one at 30K. But who knows how hard someone wants a the car. Some guy might have skills to rebuild it in his own garage for less than those clean looking ones or build a 'hotroad' or a racer... if you don't want don't bid, different strokes. Just sayin.
my 2 cents
Harsh? Maybe, but not unfair or untruthful. I warn you about snakeoil. The last time I went blind for two days...oh wait, that might have been some 'shine'?
I'm also very skeptical of any scenario when someone unknown to me uses the term "rust free", particularly when refering to a Detomaso where the term is automatically inclusive?
Maybe in California rust means something else? I've already seen that in Arizona on "rust free" cars. In Arizonia that's not rust, it's desert barnacles? LMAO!
You are correct about the provenance being important, but often over looked. I look back on the summers spent running around the factory, and I try to remember what was going on at the time. I recently asked Santiago about getting some registry up, and he said he was going to work on it, but honestly Italy is totally different than the US. Everything takes years. I know that the move from the old factory, to the new place has taken 2 years plus. But I digress.
When I asked about my car, I got the build sheet, but not my time card. I asked about if it had been back to the factory for work, and I got "I have nothing more William to tell you." that is the way deTomaso handled everything. Don't get me wrong, my Aunt and Uncle loved every car that went out the door. They just did not get the idea that people would want to know about the little stuff. Or maybe they were afraid that people would not understand. The factory was a fun place for me as a teenager to work, but even I did not appreciate what people would want to know about it at the time. When we all stopped working to watch the Italian soccer team or when we were getting ready to go the boat, and everyone on the factory floor would stop building for a couple of days to "check the rubber boat motor, or wax the Red deauville." Or when Corgi would get us together to head up to pickup a Pantera that had stopped someplace nearby. I wish I had kept a complete log of the Vins that I had worked on and what we had done. Or even..shh... taken a picture. I once took a picture of the shop floor and "testa" made me give him the film... "the Sanitoria said no picture Willie" Oh well.
When I asked about my car, I got the build sheet, but not my time card. I asked about if it had been back to the factory for work, and I got "I have nothing more William to tell you." that is the way deTomaso handled everything. Don't get me wrong, my Aunt and Uncle loved every car that went out the door. They just did not get the idea that people would want to know about the little stuff. Or maybe they were afraid that people would not understand. The factory was a fun place for me as a teenager to work, but even I did not appreciate what people would want to know about it at the time. When we all stopped working to watch the Italian soccer team or when we were getting ready to go the boat, and everyone on the factory floor would stop building for a couple of days to "check the rubber boat motor, or wax the Red deauville." Or when Corgi would get us together to head up to pickup a Pantera that had stopped someplace nearby. I wish I had kept a complete log of the Vins that I had worked on and what we had done. Or even..shh... taken a picture. I once took a picture of the shop floor and "testa" made me give him the film... "the Sanitoria said no picture Willie" Oh well.
Its baaaaaaaack! A little more reasonably priced this timeControversial Goose
The addition (in the new auction photos) of the faxed letter from the factory certainly clears up the apparent inconsistency of a 2-lamp set-up on such an early chassis. It's still going to take an enormous amount of time and money to make this one right, but I'm (I hope) sure someone will take it on.
Mark
Mark
The obvious things that are missing from this car are the steering wheel and the alloy wheels. Does anyone know what these five items would cost someone? I am guessing a nice set of originals (if you could find them, would be in the $6,000 to $8,000 range; the steering wheel and related pieces would be in the maybe $1,200 range?).
I am just guessing on the above numbers. My point is, the obvious things that are missing will cost someone some serious dough; and then there's rust repair (however minor), body, paint, interior, brake rebuild, engine rebuild, transaxle rebuild, you get the idea. To get this car to a spectacular place (which I do believe is possible) will cost some serious money -- especially if one had to hire it all done. Seems it would be cheaper to buy the best one you could find for $100k.
Any thoughts? How far off base am I?
Mark
I am just guessing on the above numbers. My point is, the obvious things that are missing will cost someone some serious dough; and then there's rust repair (however minor), body, paint, interior, brake rebuild, engine rebuild, transaxle rebuild, you get the idea. To get this car to a spectacular place (which I do believe is possible) will cost some serious money -- especially if one had to hire it all done. Seems it would be cheaper to buy the best one you could find for $100k.
Any thoughts? How far off base am I?
Mark
Well, IMHO, given the state of the car and the KNOWN issues, the current bid of around $30K is at or maybe slightly above what I consider fair for the car. Maybe (probably) I'm a few years behind the current market pricing, but I don't see the value proposition given the selection of near and sub $100K cars (mostly the "more desirable" 4-headlight variants) that have been on the market for a while — in some cases over a year. Sure, this is a rare car overall, and even more so with the low VIN and early 2-lamp (the first to be so desecrated) configuration, but knowing De Tomaso as we all do, that could just mean it fell off the assembly line and it took them a while to push it back on and complete the car.
I'm curious to see where it ends, but I'll bet someone pays over (over-pays?) $50K for it.
Mark
I'm curious to see where it ends, but I'll bet someone pays over (over-pays?) $50K for it.
Mark
Mark, the most recent set of wheels (only 4) went for $16k! on eBay, just weeks ago, so agreeing with you that extra expenses are gonna add up!
I have to agree with the price comment. I think you have to get this thing for no more then 20. It need virtually everything done and is missing some parts and may need a bunch more replaced.
You simply will not know if and how much rust is on it until it gets stripped down. In fact, it might not even be a good buy at 20?
Who ever buys it, this will be for the passion of it.
I wouldn't mind but it still isn't reasonable. I'd take a guess and say this guy got it for around 10?
These things are labor intensive, will tie up a four car garage all by itself, and will take years to complete unless you send it all out. I say it will take around 80 to do it respectfully and then you need to make a decision on whether you "concours" the car or just make it a really nice driver.
A true accurate concours restoration on it is going to cost more then 80.
Buy one already done. It's cheaper and you can drive it right now.
Just my worthless opion.
You simply will not know if and how much rust is on it until it gets stripped down. In fact, it might not even be a good buy at 20?
Who ever buys it, this will be for the passion of it.
I wouldn't mind but it still isn't reasonable. I'd take a guess and say this guy got it for around 10?
These things are labor intensive, will tie up a four car garage all by itself, and will take years to complete unless you send it all out. I say it will take around 80 to do it respectfully and then you need to make a decision on whether you "concours" the car or just make it a really nice driver.
A true accurate concours restoration on it is going to cost more then 80.
Buy one already done. It's cheaper and you can drive it right now.
Just my worthless opion.
The seller has gotta put down the crack pipe!
I'd give him $15K for it, maybe...
I'd give him $15K for it, maybe...
I'd have to dissagree (respectfully ofcourse)
For the do it yourselfer (me) I could drop 40K on the car and still feel safe. I love to do this kind of work and the Goose is one of my favorite designs, as it is with many of us. I could see 40K for the car, another 25K in parts 800+ hours of labor and have a VERY NICE driver. I personally would not see the value in going concours. The labor would mean little to nothing as it is what I'd be doing on a lesser car anyhow. 65 to 75K finished and I would feel like a winner all day long. Problem is, I can't fit my fat A$$ in the car and I would want to park it in my living room and use it as a coffee table. Not very sporting is it? Just love the design and could stare at it for hours, like a beautiful woman, except cheaper
Point is, there are a lot of folks out here looking at this car with the same thoughts as me.
I am thinking the car would hit mid to low $40's and if it is less than that, it might be mine
For the do it yourselfer (me) I could drop 40K on the car and still feel safe. I love to do this kind of work and the Goose is one of my favorite designs, as it is with many of us. I could see 40K for the car, another 25K in parts 800+ hours of labor and have a VERY NICE driver. I personally would not see the value in going concours. The labor would mean little to nothing as it is what I'd be doing on a lesser car anyhow. 65 to 75K finished and I would feel like a winner all day long. Problem is, I can't fit my fat A$$ in the car and I would want to park it in my living room and use it as a coffee table. Not very sporting is it? Just love the design and could stare at it for hours, like a beautiful woman, except cheaper
Point is, there are a lot of folks out here looking at this car with the same thoughts as me.
I am thinking the car would hit mid to low $40's and if it is less than that, it might be mine
Well, for one, a simple diet would help you get in the car. 
My ass isn't THAT small and I fit fine. A set of long legs AND a tall upper body would be problematic (even more so with a fat ass...).
Keep in mind that there are a few things the average (not suggesting you are) Joe can't do, like rebuilding a ZF Dash-1. Still, I would agree that if you consider your time free and just value the end result as a nice Goose for $75K, it seems OK. That assumes you are able to find/make the missing parts or can live with the aftermarket alternatives. I've already bought my "needs a full resto" Goose a few years back when I had the cash but not the time or space. Now I have the space and am working on finding the time. Eventually, I will have a $75K nicely restored Goose (I hope) that could, when I'm done, be worth much more. So I guess if you pay $40K for the car you may just be "buying it early" at a fair price. However, if you plan to (or need to) pay to have the work done properly, this car is not a "deal" at over $30K IMHO.
Mark
My ass isn't THAT small and I fit fine. A set of long legs AND a tall upper body would be problematic (even more so with a fat ass...). Keep in mind that there are a few things the average (not suggesting you are) Joe can't do, like rebuilding a ZF Dash-1. Still, I would agree that if you consider your time free and just value the end result as a nice Goose for $75K, it seems OK. That assumes you are able to find/make the missing parts or can live with the aftermarket alternatives. I've already bought my "needs a full resto" Goose a few years back when I had the cash but not the time or space. Now I have the space and am working on finding the time. Eventually, I will have a $75K nicely restored Goose (I hope) that could, when I'm done, be worth much more. So I guess if you pay $40K for the car you may just be "buying it early" at a fair price. However, if you plan to (or need to) pay to have the work done properly, this car is not a "deal" at over $30K IMHO.
Mark