Mark
I would have to agree 100%.
I don't think that I would be willing to tackle the rebuild of the ZF but could handle just about anything else.
At 6-2 and 275 lbs, there is not a shoe horn big enough. Although owning a Goose would be great motivation to loose the weight.
I called the owner, real nice guy and from the sounds of it, a very worthy car.
The reserve is higher than what I had hoped (or expected). I am out of the game
The reserve is higher than what I had hoped (or expected). I am out of the game
So what is he looking at for a minimum?
45 
OK, so you would be buying it several YEARS early at $45K. Still, the likelihood is that SOMEONE will eventually pay that much for it. FWIW, I think you are wise to pass on it. There will always be other opportunities. I know this first-hand because I missed out in several before I found mine.
Mark
Thanks for the encouragement. My Goose is out there somewhere. When the time is right the money and car will come together
Thanks for the encouragement. My Goose is out there somewhere. When the time is right the money and car will come together
Reserve not met at $32,600!
I personally am not surprised. It would sell at 20 to 25. A lot of people would be interested at that.
Hey!
This car was up on ebay a few years back, along with two other Geese and a 40ft trailer at the time. Owner was up north of LA near Six Flags. He had basically scabbed good parts from the three cars to make one nice car. When I spoke with him, about missing parts...I got a very nonchalant "I think they're around here somewhere" which to me...meant "I have no freaking clue where all that stuff is...." Not to mention the fact that this car and one other sat outside in the weather for decades. Note the condition of the interior on this particular car....nothing does that but natural sunlight! The third car lived in the trailer...along with cats....ugh!
So, 4 years back or so, there was a set of wheels on the car. No steering wheel..... I would put money on this current seller throwing them out on the market to get what he could, since the getting is good.
As for buying this car now? $15K. No more. Why so low? Because I own one, and I know how much trouble they can be! The ZF is surely rusty....if badly, simply throw it away and find another box.....as you will pay and pay and pay for each gear that is pitted and unserviceable. I heard that blocking rings (synchro rings to some) are selling for $300 now....can't imagine what gears are going for! It would be cheaper to buy a -1 Pantera box and gut it for parts....swapped into the Goose box.
Engine- rusty cylinder walls....
Body- rusted. How much work and $$$ do you sink into this? There are no clear pictures of the underside of the hatches, the bottoms of the doors, underneath the fuel tank/storage areas....
As for Provenance, I scream !!! Windows are dated mid 69. No way in hell was this an early car if these are the original pieces of glass. The brakes are not normal early brakes. If you look closely, this car has 3 piston calipers all around...not the giant aluminum versions.... This car is a "heinz 57" car.
The hatches are steel, not sure about the hood, but that is a very early feature, unlikely to have been lying around.....except for on a car that may have been sitting at Ghia for a while....as the two headlamp thing was being engineered! (If all of that is true!) THEN, it came back to the factory where it was assembled further... Dates on the intake manifold and heads/block/distributor and part number of the bellhousing would probably reveal a 302. Early cars as this would have normally had the hipo 289... or at least a very good possibility of it.
Car $15k
Body work and paint $20K (presuming there will be significant rust and metal replacement-could go higher)
Engine $5K Nothing fancy!
Transmission $10K
Wheels and tires (refinished) $5K REAL conservative here!
Refit brakes and other hydraulic systems $3K
Interior $10K May be low... everything is trashed and needs replacing!
Steering wheel $1K Probably low.....
New lens on all the lamps, new side markers $1K Could be high.
New mufflers $1K They can't have survived!
New Headers $1K Will need to be custom made...unless you buy old junk from factory parts supply....
Air cleaner and parts $1K
Just this adds up to $73K. There is margin here to still sell a now pristine restored car for more, however, I believe that labor cost is not fully reflected in the price estimates and could up the costs very quickly into the $85-90+K range.
While there are cars that have sold for much more than this, I believe them to be the reflection of what a non-stock custom restoration will do to a car.....and unconcerned and unknowing buyers. I'm talking a restoration to stock looking style. Also, you have the stigma of being a two headlamp car vs the more popular 4 headlamp version.
Since you cannot prove that this was the "first" two headlamp car, without tearing into places to prove the serial number issue, it offers little confirmation. How much more would that make the car even if it was!?
As one old timer told me, just because it's the first of a line of ugly cars, doesn't make it any more desirable or valuable!" (except for a few!) Same thing for the 1 of 1 scenario. If the car was ugly when it was new, chances are that it will be ugly still! (I AM NOT saying that 2 headlamp cars are ugly at all!!!! Just making a point about collecting.....) IF the car had a history of a celebrity owner, I think that would add more value than the conversion thing..... Being the first of one of these, could mean that you will have a hard time finding parts!!! ...as chances are, things changed a little bit as production hit the line!
I really believe that if the guy had even an ugly set of stock wheels on the car, that it would sell for the $30K range....but even that is pushing it on a car that needs a TOTAL resto and then some. Most are not going to invest $50-60K to make $5-10K or so. You would buy this car to rebuild it for yourself. Only then would it be worth the initial cost! IMHO.
Steve
This car was up on ebay a few years back, along with two other Geese and a 40ft trailer at the time. Owner was up north of LA near Six Flags. He had basically scabbed good parts from the three cars to make one nice car. When I spoke with him, about missing parts...I got a very nonchalant "I think they're around here somewhere" which to me...meant "I have no freaking clue where all that stuff is...." Not to mention the fact that this car and one other sat outside in the weather for decades. Note the condition of the interior on this particular car....nothing does that but natural sunlight! The third car lived in the trailer...along with cats....ugh!
So, 4 years back or so, there was a set of wheels on the car. No steering wheel..... I would put money on this current seller throwing them out on the market to get what he could, since the getting is good.
As for buying this car now? $15K. No more. Why so low? Because I own one, and I know how much trouble they can be! The ZF is surely rusty....if badly, simply throw it away and find another box.....as you will pay and pay and pay for each gear that is pitted and unserviceable. I heard that blocking rings (synchro rings to some) are selling for $300 now....can't imagine what gears are going for! It would be cheaper to buy a -1 Pantera box and gut it for parts....swapped into the Goose box.
Engine- rusty cylinder walls....
Body- rusted. How much work and $$$ do you sink into this? There are no clear pictures of the underside of the hatches, the bottoms of the doors, underneath the fuel tank/storage areas....
As for Provenance, I scream !!! Windows are dated mid 69. No way in hell was this an early car if these are the original pieces of glass. The brakes are not normal early brakes. If you look closely, this car has 3 piston calipers all around...not the giant aluminum versions.... This car is a "heinz 57" car.
The hatches are steel, not sure about the hood, but that is a very early feature, unlikely to have been lying around.....except for on a car that may have been sitting at Ghia for a while....as the two headlamp thing was being engineered! (If all of that is true!) THEN, it came back to the factory where it was assembled further... Dates on the intake manifold and heads/block/distributor and part number of the bellhousing would probably reveal a 302. Early cars as this would have normally had the hipo 289... or at least a very good possibility of it.
Car $15k
Body work and paint $20K (presuming there will be significant rust and metal replacement-could go higher)
Engine $5K Nothing fancy!
Transmission $10K
Wheels and tires (refinished) $5K REAL conservative here!
Refit brakes and other hydraulic systems $3K
Interior $10K May be low... everything is trashed and needs replacing!
Steering wheel $1K Probably low.....
New lens on all the lamps, new side markers $1K Could be high.
New mufflers $1K They can't have survived!
New Headers $1K Will need to be custom made...unless you buy old junk from factory parts supply....
Air cleaner and parts $1K
Just this adds up to $73K. There is margin here to still sell a now pristine restored car for more, however, I believe that labor cost is not fully reflected in the price estimates and could up the costs very quickly into the $85-90+K range.
While there are cars that have sold for much more than this, I believe them to be the reflection of what a non-stock custom restoration will do to a car.....and unconcerned and unknowing buyers. I'm talking a restoration to stock looking style. Also, you have the stigma of being a two headlamp car vs the more popular 4 headlamp version.
Since you cannot prove that this was the "first" two headlamp car, without tearing into places to prove the serial number issue, it offers little confirmation. How much more would that make the car even if it was!?
As one old timer told me, just because it's the first of a line of ugly cars, doesn't make it any more desirable or valuable!" (except for a few!) Same thing for the 1 of 1 scenario. If the car was ugly when it was new, chances are that it will be ugly still! (I AM NOT saying that 2 headlamp cars are ugly at all!!!! Just making a point about collecting.....) IF the car had a history of a celebrity owner, I think that would add more value than the conversion thing..... Being the first of one of these, could mean that you will have a hard time finding parts!!! ...as chances are, things changed a little bit as production hit the line!
I really believe that if the guy had even an ugly set of stock wheels on the car, that it would sell for the $30K range....but even that is pushing it on a car that needs a TOTAL resto and then some. Most are not going to invest $50-60K to make $5-10K or so. You would buy this car to rebuild it for yourself. Only then would it be worth the initial cost! IMHO.
Steve
Good point that this may be a car built of others.
Caution on the price, I agree. It is also presumptuous that the finished product will permit the owner from even breaking even.
The amount of hours going off something like this project is off the wall AND if there is something major concealed here, this could turn out to be just a parts car and not worth completing at any price.
Risky is an understatement. This is not child's play even for a team of professionals.
Caution on the price, I agree. It is also presumptuous that the finished product will permit the owner from even breaking even.
The amount of hours going off something like this project is off the wall AND if there is something major concealed here, this could turn out to be just a parts car and not worth completing at any price.
Risky is an understatement. This is not child's play even for a team of professionals.
Found the wheels!Goose wheels
firstpantera,
Look close at the eBay rims, the one in the upper right is different. The area towards the center of the rim from the tire valve is definitely different -- there is a missing cut edge right above the spokes. Also, the whole top looks different as well -- maybe there is a different offset to the one wheel?
I know these are rare as hen's teeth so I do understand that these are not readily available; and it is cool to find them in any condition. But damn, to pay this money for not perfect examples goes back to my first point. If you think you are going to purchase this for $45k and be O.K. financially then you're probably not living in reality. Yes, you could put all kinds of aftermarket stuff on the car from rims to aftermarket steering wheel to aftermarket seats to save money, but you'll also not draw anyone with money to purchase the car when that time comes as well. This goose is priced too high for anyone not to come out on it. My goodness, just look at the pricing of the non matching rim set!
I call this goose a FRIGHT PIG of huge proportion. Huge chance of downside, with not a very good chance of upside; especially when one can go out and buy the best for $100k for a car with all the correct parts on it; and yes, I do understand that $100k is not a trivial amount for a plaything either -- it's a lot of dough I would agree........
Mark
Look close at the eBay rims, the one in the upper right is different. The area towards the center of the rim from the tire valve is definitely different -- there is a missing cut edge right above the spokes. Also, the whole top looks different as well -- maybe there is a different offset to the one wheel?
I know these are rare as hen's teeth so I do understand that these are not readily available; and it is cool to find them in any condition. But damn, to pay this money for not perfect examples goes back to my first point. If you think you are going to purchase this for $45k and be O.K. financially then you're probably not living in reality. Yes, you could put all kinds of aftermarket stuff on the car from rims to aftermarket steering wheel to aftermarket seats to save money, but you'll also not draw anyone with money to purchase the car when that time comes as well. This goose is priced too high for anyone not to come out on it. My goodness, just look at the pricing of the non matching rim set!
I call this goose a FRIGHT PIG of huge proportion. Huge chance of downside, with not a very good chance of upside; especially when one can go out and buy the best for $100k for a car with all the correct parts on it; and yes, I do understand that $100k is not a trivial amount for a plaything either -- it's a lot of dough I would agree........
Mark
That set of wheels looks to me like a set of rears (7.5" wide — distinguished by the relatively shallow hub inset) plus one front rim (deep inset) and one "spare" wheel, which on my car seems to have an off-set hub somewhere between the two so it can be used in either location in case of a flat.
Interestingly the seller describes them as a set of 6" fronts and 8" rears, both of which are wrong.
The difference in the castings (rim details, spoke thicknesses etc.) suggest this was a "set" scrounged up from various cars and probably not produced all at the same time. Given the weird bubbling, I wonder if these may be a mix of magnesium and aluminum as well. Hard to tell without weighing them. The center discs are later repros not originals. But, if you need a set... where will you find another "this cheap"?
Mark
Interestingly the seller describes them as a set of 6" fronts and 8" rears, both of which are wrong.
The difference in the castings (rim details, spoke thicknesses etc.) suggest this was a "set" scrounged up from various cars and probably not produced all at the same time. Given the weird bubbling, I wonder if these may be a mix of magnesium and aluminum as well. Hard to tell without weighing them. The center discs are later repros not originals. But, if you need a set... where will you find another "this cheap"?
Mark
Attachments
Images (1)
From the camera angle, those 4 rims all appear to be the same width! The rim edges all appear at the same height....
Could be a mix of early and later rims, but CERTAINLY a mix!
I would bet that the bubbly rims are magnesium. They need a sealer applied before paint or powder coating!
Steve
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
Could be a mix of early and later rims, but CERTAINLY a mix!
I would bet that the bubbly rims are magnesium. They need a sealer applied before paint or powder coating!
Steve
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
quote:Originally posted by Mangusta:
(I hope no one is silly enough to bid on these!)
Are you kidding? These are worth like $15,000! I'm gonna hit "Buy-it-Now" NOW!
Mark
I've got a bit of recent experience with these Mangusta wheel types. What I see here is one front magnesium (early cars), and one front, two rears aluminum (later cars). It would be ridiculous to run a set like this as the weights of the two front wheels are drastically different.
The "Controversial Goose" has been sold.
Someone shelled out some strong money, this I know because my offer was double what most people here felt it was worth.
I hope the new owner does well with the car, even it needed a lot of attention, I still feel it was worth having
Someone shelled out some strong money, this I know because my offer was double what most people here felt it was worth.
I hope the new owner does well with the car, even it needed a lot of attention, I still feel it was worth having
deniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
FWIW I heard the car sold to a European buyer for close to 40K.
Considering the recent private sale of a 'perfect' car sold for 200K, this would be a good candidate for a similar over the top full restoration.
Considering the recent private sale of a 'perfect' car sold for 200K, this would be a good candidate for a similar over the top full restoration.
What is a fair price for a Mangusta front and rear wheel in original and good condition? What recent sales is any 'Goose enthusiast aware of as a gauge? Thanks, Dave
Dave,
You moved!
I would gladly pay you the very fair price of $300-400 per rim. Original and good condition means you invest another $300 per rim to have them annealed and refinished....
....or are you buying?!!!
Last set I heard of a set selling was in Europe and they brought insane money. Insane money....... insane seller, insane buyer....I paid less for my car....
I sold a 7" front rim (it was a spare) back to the original owner last year for the ball park of $350-400 and I hope he appreciated the deal he got. It had been separated for 20 years or so in time and thousands of miles in distance! The car passed through several hands to the current owner, but the wheel sat in the garage of the neighbor to the car's owner way back when! Until it went to the Portland swap meet one weekend......
Ciao!
Steve
You moved!
I would gladly pay you the very fair price of $300-400 per rim.
Original and good condition means you invest another $300 per rim to have them annealed and refinished........or are you buying?!!!
Last set I heard of a set selling was in Europe and they brought insane money. Insane money....... insane seller, insane buyer....I paid less for my car....
I sold a 7" front rim (it was a spare) back to the original owner last year for the ball park of $350-400 and I hope he appreciated the deal he got. It had been separated for 20 years or so in time and thousands of miles in distance! The car passed through several hands to the current owner, but the wheel sat in the garage of the neighbor to the car's owner way back when! Until it went to the Portland swap meet one weekend......
Ciao!
Steve