Dip Stick Length and Oil Capacity

Pat, you have one of the rare early models without the long guide tube that goes all the way to the back of the engine. I've always wondered how long those sticks were- thanks.

yes, apparently missed by the guys in Long Beach when the car came in!

Ford found on early Panteras that owners wouldn't go to the trouble of opening the trunk lid, unfastening the engine screen and grope around for the front mounted dipstick. I imagine that replacing the stick was even more cumbersome. Can you all say "Engine Warranty?" The extended length dipstick got included PDQ even though the first dipstick TSB says 'May 1972'. You have a rare engine part!

I never really thought anything about its length and just climbed into the engine bay when I wanted to check the oil.  then I read the TSB and went, huh!

What say you on the quantity of oil a stock 351C should be filled to:  5 qts, 5.5 qts, or 6 qts.?

thanks

Roger that! In spite of Ford recommending 6 qts in the pan, I always used 5 plus one for the new oil filter. No problems since 1980. I have all 3 possible stock pans & they all hold the same volume. The OEM pan on this car was a HO with the pump baffle and crank scraper and is date-stamped Mar '72, with a part #.  But I've run a 10-qt  Aviaid  since the last century.

BTW, I modified a spare Aviaid pan for a mid-sump stick that reaches up to the hole in the right side engine cover like DeTomaso provided for radiator tank overflow cap assess in '74, the stick reached thru the missing rear quarter glass.  So I had to modify a stick but no longer have to even open the trunk to check oil. Even more convenient!

thanks and nice mod.  My glass is out on the quarters as well and it makes working back there 100% easier!

I have the housing for my car but I do not have the right dipstick, are these available anywhere?

One consideration that is not mentioned in regards to the dipstick reading correctly is the pitch of the engine.

In regular US production vehicles the engine and drive train do not sit level. They are on something like a 12° or 17° pitch downward to the rear of the car. In the Pantera, the engine sits level.

That affects the level of the oil in the pan where the dipstick intrudes and the reading on the stick.

I'm not aware of the Cleveland ever having an issue of the crank spinning in the oil if the level is too high. Even if it did, that likely would only show issues with racing level constant rpm's.

Even so, at one point Ford "discovered" that they had a warranty issue with the 1968 and later 428 CJ engines with engine failures under warranty caused by the engine being run dry of oil at higher then expected customer rpm use levels because of inadequate drainback  rates into the pan.

This is all interesting simply because the FE engine had been in production since 1958 and this was the first acknowledgement from Ford of an oiling issue? Strange if you ask me considering the heavy racing history of the 427's throughout the '60s but I digress.

The solution was not to change the outward dimensions of the oil pan, but to increase the amount of oil in it by re-indexing the dip stick. To make a long story short, they added two quarts to the engine capacity just by remarking the dipsticks.

In doing so, there became a minor issue with the level being too close to the crankshaft and the crank spinning in the oil.

So step two of the correction was go add a scrapper inside the pan and an add in "windage tray". This appears in the 69 428 CJ engine assembly and for "street applications including "street racing" was an adequate solution.

There likely is little harm done in running an extra quart of oil to a Cleveland. The harm done would be in not enough oil. The RPM's necessary to really require something like an "Aviaid Pantera" oil pan (which I am running) is usually a bit over the factory built in RPM limit of a stock 351C CJ hydraulic lifter engine.

The main benefit to a pan like that is mostly to lower your oil temps. However, keep in mind that too low of an oil operating temperature will likely do as much harm as too high.

Normal oil temps should be in the 210° to 220° range in order to boil off the water vapor and reduce the sludge it develops in the oil.

If you are running a constant 180°F., that's too low.

With the usage these cars are given these days, very little of this matters except for rebuild times on the engine, particularly in the oil control rings in the piston assemblies and the valve train, like the stock rocker arms and hydraulic lifters.

You will find that if you decide to run a sanctioned  "open track" event at a race track, it will be recommended to you to run an extra quart of oil. It is simply cheap insurance.

Not sure if a new 351-C dipstick is available anywhere on the planet, but the dimensions are in the TSBs (the 2nd one on dipsticks), and Ford has hundreds of longer dipsticks available almost free at wrecking yards everywhere. A 351-Windsor stick from a Van is about 4 feet long! My custom one came from a 1-ton Diesel truck and you need not be a machinist to cut one down and remark it.

Besides the good reasons listed, the main reason for running an Aviaid 10-qt pan is for cornering, even on the street with a stock skinny-tire Pantera. Aviaid or  Armando pans have far better baffling around the pump pickup, an in-pan windage tray and a better crank scraper while not hanging down to reduce road clearance. All stock pans allow oil to slosh away from the pump pickup while cornering. Air bubbles & oil is nowhere near good enough for a 351-C.

I saw a 'vigorously' driven Pantera with a stock pan lose it's crank bearings in a 2 hr open track event. If you ever explore the outer reaches of the tach, back in the '80s Mike Cook's dyno experiment with transparent rocker covers showed that without modifying things, oil drain-back was slow enough that 5000 rpms for a few minutes would fill up both rocker covers, leaving only one (1.0) quart out of 5 in a stock pan. Kinda scary at todays overhaul prices....

@bosswrench posted:

Not sure if a new 351-C dipstick is available anywhere on the planet, but the dimensions are in the TSBs (the 2nd one on dipsticks), and Ford has hundreds of longer dipsticks available almost free at wrecking yards everywhere. A 351-Windsor stick from a Van is about 4 feet long! My custom one came from a 1-ton Diesel truck and you need not be a machinist to cut one down and remark it.

Besides the good reasons listed, the main reason for running an Aviaid 10-qt pan is for cornering, even on the street with a stock skinny-tire Pantera. Aviaid or  Armando pans have far better baffling around the pump pickup, an in-pan windage tray and a better crank scraper while not hanging down to reduce road clearance. All stock pans allow oil to slosh away from the pump pickup while cornering. Air bubbles & oil is nowhere near good enough for a 351-C.

I saw a 'vigorously' driven Pantera with a stock pan lose it's crank bearings in a 2 hr open track event. If you ever explore the outer reaches of the tach, back in the '80s Mike Cook's dyno experiment with transparent rocker covers showed that without modifying things, oil drain-back was slow enough that 5000 rpms for a few minutes would fill up both rocker covers, leaving only one (1.0) quart out of 5 in a stock pan. Kinda scary at todays overhaul prices....

I always thought that the additional drain back fittings added to the valve covers shown in the Ford Boss 302 Modification booklet was a good idea. Modifications like that were run by some of the teams racing the Boss 302 in Trans Am in 1969 and 1970.

Iron Boss 302 and Boss 351C closed chamber heads are really the same.

When I bought my Aviaid  pan for my Pantera, I wanted Aviad to add the fittings to the pan for additional drain back lines but got talked out of it as unnecessary.

I'm not that easy anymore to talk out of things and I am still thinking about it?

In addition to the Aviad pan, I'm running an external oil cooler, dual remote oil filters with -10 lines and the cooler has it's own electric cooling fan that turns it self on automatically . The total volume of the system is 12 quarts.

Even with the additional capacity the Aviaid pan adds, I'm not sure that a full comp car wouldn't still need additional drain back help? I certainly do not see where it would hurt?

At some point in the past it was mentioned by someone that they thought that early in it's racing developement, the Boss 302/Cleveland head was having issues with valve spring failure.

I heard that the fix for that was to submerse the valve spring in oil by letting the valve cover fill a couple of inches with oil.

Now I was not privy to any of this "information" so I have no opinion specifically on the accuracy of those comments but may be significant to this discussion?

With ancient motorcycle experience, I have a hard time trusting external oil lines- which often cracked at a critical time. If you use dash 8 or dash 10 Aeroquip flex lines, I suggest strapping them down every 8" or so. On another brand of engine, I had an external Aeroquip line move a full 4" to be sawed open by the alternator fan. I think first I'll explore what the '69-early '70 Cleveland blocks had- extra drain-back drillings in the corners of the lifter chamber, and maybe enlarge the ones in the center. Also, someone decades ago suggested drilling BIG holes thru the frontside China wall to drain onto the timing chain and down into the sump.

I don't have an early block for close examination, only a photo (the extra drains looked about 3/8" ID which might not do much & maybe why Ford and NASCAR dropped the idea). I don't know what's involved in drilling such deep holes thru a cast iron block, or if the early blocks were cored differently. A good winter project for me on a junk '73 block in the pile. I'll report back when I try it. Would hate to hit water halfway through or weaken a rare usable block!

Agreed on the dependability/lack of dependability subject of rubber based "Aeoroquip" lines. I have found the teflon lined hoses more dependable and almost indestructible. An excellent point.

It has about the same life expectancy of tire rubber, plus or minus.

I have also used stainless tubing instead of hose. For one thing, it doesn't wander around like the hoses do.

In support of your warning of using braided hose, it really arrived as use on race cars near major aircraft manufacturers. Some how it fell into some workers "lunch pails" and got through security at check out times?

When used in aircraft, it is required to be replaced at certain intervals and documented. That really should be noted for use on street cars as well.

All rubber based hoses need to be replaced eventually so this really should not be a surprise.

I noticed that Porsche uses hard lines where it seemingly would be a hose application, particularly around the oil coolers.

About 35 years ago I had a friend with a GT40. A real one. He was going "nuts" replacing all of the "Aeroquip" on the car. At the time the cost to buy was in the thousands and he really wasn't a trained mechanic. He was an illustration artist. So many of the little nuances that an experienced mechanic learns were just not in his itinerary.