e-brake Cables

Hi William,

I missed this post until now. My car requires these also.

I have some details from another Mangusta owner who had his replicated by a company that specializes in making cables of this sort, but the info is not with me here at the office. Later I was told that the original brake cables were not sheathed and are just standard aircraft cable on pulleys, so I am confused. I will try to get Denis to check his car which still has them.

mark

Mark;
You may be right, but the ones that came off my car were sheathed. Not the one from the handle to the pulley, but the one from the pully to the wheels.

I think it better if they all were sheathed, but this one was also fraying so it had to go.

We

Here is the company that has made them in the past. Perhaps we can arrange a group purchase.

http://www.madisonpowersystems...rkingbrakecables.htm

Mark

Has anybody ever upgraded the "umbrella" parking brake handle to the late 1970 style of parking brake that is in the floor?
Are these the same as a Pantera?
If originality is not an issue, many many cars have a nice parking brake assembly for the floor that could be fitted into a Mangusta on the right side of the drivers seat where the late 1970 park brake lever is.

Remember there were TWO different rear brake calipers with different parking brakes built in, even though both were Girling. It may be that the small iron calipers and the big aluminum calipers take different length brake cables, or at least different ends. I borrowed a set of the aluminum rear brakes from a friend and he included the stock cables for that varient. I'll try to get some photos & measurements in my 'spare time'....

Someone told me that they had some cables made up.....I had one made but the guy used thicker cable and it wouldn't move properly thru the balance pulley....PLUS I made it too long thinking I was engineering in an improvement...duh! Install and adjust the parking brakes with the car suspension fully loaded!!! (Not up on jackstands with the wheels hanging.....)

I "suspect" that no matter which set of brakes you have, Girling or Fiat-Girling (cast iron) that the ebrake cable is the same. The mechanisms on the brake calipers appear to be the same from one style to the other.

If I can locate whom it was that sent me info on this cable, I will most certainly forward it to all and perhaps a group purchase can be entertained! It was a reasonable price.... I still have the old cable, and all of the old parts that were installed on the thicker new cable.....

Steve

Hi Jack, I (and others surely!) would REALLY apprciate any info on the parking brake cable assembly. MY puzzle car (#1010) has alloy rear calipers and never had the cable portion of the p-brake system. I'd especially like to get dimensions on the ends. Hoping they are machined parts that can be readily copied! I believe the flexible conduit sections are terminated with the same brass 'adapters' found on Panteras (2 required per conduit). If this is the case I'd be glad to provide dimensions for everyone on that part, have some of those laying around. The factory advertised lengths of the conduit is 750mm (left side) and 1000mm (right) but not sure if these were the 'actual' numbers. Regards to all, Nate Stevens

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Remember there were TWO different rear brake calipers with different parking brakes built in, even though both were Girling. It may be that the small iron calipers and the big aluminum calipers take different length brake cables, or at least different ends. I borrowed a set of the aluminum rear brakes from a friend and he included the stock cables for that varient. I'll try to get some photos & measurements in my 'spare time'....

The alloy rear calipers use a varient of the pair-of-pliers style e-brake that Girling so loved, but the pieces are all stamped steel rather than cast iron. They actually resemble Pantera GT5-S e-brake parts- which themselves wre derived from Rolls-Royce rear brakes. I'm in the process of duplicating the OEM set I borrowed for one 'Goose owner. I can make others but remember who you're dealing with: I got a fairly full plate right now and I'm not getting younger... In the meantime, I'm trying to locate someone local to Reno that can reliably bond brake pad material to a chunk of steel. Then I can contour the pad in two planes for the actual stoppers. My ol' buddy 'Friction-Phil' in San Jose CA could do it but thats a 2-day trip for me nowadays. Ain't nothing straightforward on these beautiful beasts!

OK, looked up the old post and it looks like the person had a place make up cables with 1/8" (.125") cable.....

My original cable is 3mm or aprox .115" in diam.

New one I had made, the guy used .140" cable which is WAY too big. ( I hate it when guys don't listen to the customer!)

I thought Nate had found a source for 3mm cable...which would to me, be most ideal, even over 1/8" cable! I think that extra .010" would make it just that more stiff, and to go around that little pulley, the smaller the mo' better!

I believe that Wilkenson has the cable "ferels" or ends for the housing material. Housing material is semi generic....

It is just the lengths that need to be worked out, and the ends. If you have your old ends, they could be brazed to the new cable easy enuf. If you do not have new ends, then you would need to be certain that the new cable ends would fit the Girling ebrake clevis. Easy enuf.....

If someone out there can confirm these measurements, that would help us all!

Center-Center length of cable= 88"
Short cable housing= 29 15/16"
Long cable housing= 39 5/8"

Ferrel ends are not included in any measurements. They are the same as a Pantera ebrake part too.

More on this adventure later!!!

Steve

sure are a lot of Goose's with e-brake 'issues'

seems like MOST don't have 'em sorted and installed, add mine to the list...

anyone have any theories as to why?

My theory is that crappy factory cables seized and were replaced with stock parts which eventually seized and then people just cut them off and did without.

Mark

I will let you know how mine are, I have the new set, and I am heading to the Shop to try them on over the weekend.

We

I think it was because the cables were either crushed or snagged on something and ripped off!!!

I don't feel comfortable about that front cable running under the floor pan with nothing to protect it from freeway crap out to ruin your day!!!

Mark, I don't think any were ever replaced.....if they failed......

There is nothing wrong with the factory cables. What is wrong, is that most people do not understand the setup and how it works!!!!

MOST IMPORTANT!!!! ...is to install and adjust these cables with your car suspension loaded!!! You CANNOT do this job with the wheels hanging down while the chassis is on jackstands. The wheels must be supported and the body/chassis at rest for best results.

This is also why the smaller cable is important, to allow the cable to "equalize" from side to side via the pulley thing...

I know Steve Wilkenson had P-car cables made up for not an unreasonable price. Can we get Goose ones too is the question! ...and how many variations in length were made?!!!!

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
What is wrong, is that most people do not understand the setup and how it works!!!!
Steve

Steve,

This is great and useful information for those (almost all the rest of us?) who have never even SEEN these things on a Goose. But, it does make me wonder what happens when the car is raised off the wheels and the suspension is unloaded. Do the cables rip out, or do they lock up the rear brakes preventing wheels from rotating, or is there enough play in the small cable (I assume that's the one wrapping the pulley at the front?) ?

Thanks!

Mark

Mark,

When raised, the cables get pushed into whatever is closest....typically the exhaust system..........

Like so many projects DeT engineered, they looked good on paper, until they were executed..... ie the flip front end of the Guara.... "What are these two wooden blocks for?"

When these cables get loaded or pushed out of shape, it isn't by too much, but being that an exhaust system can be hot...the cable sheathings usually paid the worst price. After that, floor jacks or contact with objects flattened the housings.... There is enough play in the system that when the cables are pushed on, they do "activate" the ebrakes slightly, so running the car up in the air for long times would not be recommended if the wheels are spinning.....or the sheathing starts smoking!!!!

I've stared at them for a long time.....and just haven't come up with a better deal.......yet. Right now, I have no exhaust system in my car, so they look like they would work great!!!! Ugh.....

Steve

Steve, thanks for the cable and conduit lengths, excellent info! Here are a few additional numbers on ebrake cable parts: For 2 light cars (with the Lotus Elan type hand brake) the front cable portion measures 122" and there is a 14.0" section of conduit that (I think) is not used on 4 light cars. All ebrake conduit (1 section in front, if fitted, and 2 at rear) is the same as on Panteras (11.1mm OD with the black plastic sheathing or 10.0mm OD 'core' only, and the core wire diameter is 1.8mm).

As for cable, Flanders Cable in CA has a good selection of metric cable, terminations, etc, and a good website. They do have 3mm material that matches original specs. Cable is sold by the foot or in 50' rolls, been happy with their prices & service. On the down side, last time I checked they had nothing above 9mm OD conduit (2mm under what deTomaso used), so still looking for something closer to the 11mm material. Wilkenson sells conduit for Panteras that is almost the right OD (measures 10.5mm) but it has a spiral wire outer wrap and an inner liner, which make it real stiff - if you bend it, it holds the bend rather than spring back straight. It must work fine on Pantera, not sure about the Goose. (I ordered 2 'long side' Pantera conduits from Wilkenson a few months back and that's what I got. At about 58" these were more than sufficient for a Goose re. length, not sure if the extra stiffness would hurt or help however.

I belive termination for the front cable (again, on a 2-light car) are steel cylinders measuring 7x7mm, brazed onto the cable. Terminations for the rear cable (deTomaso part 600711) remain a mystery, anybody have a photo of one of these devils?!

Regarding having the cable exposed under the chassis, is that normal for the front cable? I have seen one car with the front cable located in a long solid tube and it looked great....maybe that was a custom vice factory touch? (I surmise that the previous owner of my car did some wild off-road driving, at least once, which sculpted out the car's belly area real nice, and obliterated many of the finer OEM details in this area). Always seemed like the cable should be covered, somehow. At least on the 2 light cars this cable runs a long way; on mine it was teathered by three plastic cable clamps, which could only have come from Home Depot - none too elegant, but perhaps equivalent to factory style?

Hope this helps work towards a good solution, appreciate any thoughts/suggestions! Nate S

Nate, Sorry I had forgotten about the ebrake cables. I have 8MA1244 - a euro 4 lite car. The total lenght of the cable is 95 inches (2mm cable) the 2 sheathes are 28 and 48 inches long (9.5 mm outside diameter). In my case the car has the handbrake handle by seat side so the front portion is very short and has little exposure. As far as using a sheated portion for the front, I would discourage it as it may have a tendancy to hold humidity and seize (most new cars have the front portion exposed and only sheathing in bends so as not to have pulleys). Here is a pic of the Left rear end bung as seen from the back. I can send larger pics of the balance on your pers Email

Denis

ps however strange it may seem my car has that front pulley on the front cross piece even though it is not used in my car's setup

OK, here is an update to this ebrake thread! ...along with a couple of questions!

Here is a shot of my Left Rear (three piston) caliper (#878) and ebrake with original cable end shown, attached to 3mm (1x19) stranded cable plus some misc hardware.


Close up of ebrake mech. Note difference in cable end attachment from the one listed by Denis of car #1244.



Much closer up:


Misc hardware, cable ends, sheathing. New sheathing shown between two pieces of old. New one is probably 3/16" but is nylon lined. Old ones had no inner liner, just steel....with a black vinyl outer covering. Brass sheathing "adapters" and one new cable end that I got that was used with the "much to large" cable that my guy built this all out of.....clevis pin for end of ebrake cable, and the pulley which fits in the arm/lever at the front of all of this rear cable assy.


I had a heck of a time brazing that cable end back onto the 3mm cable! Brazing certainly is an artform.....! These ends will be tough to find similar. I don't like the steel ones.... If you have your old cables, you can reuse them if you are careful with the torch!!!

Here is a GP view of a three piston rear caliper marked "Fiat-Girling" and was used originally on Fiat 2300S models. Not many were imported to the US, but they were a nicely equipped sedan for it's day!!! Fairly quick change pad design for main pads. E-brake pads are a bit more fussy! These are cast iron calipers.



One other thing regarding cable, was that Nate mentioned getting 2mm cable for the hatch latches and the hood. I measured what my car is currently using, and on one side it appears to have (possibly!) original cable that measures 1.85mm (.072") and the other side definitely has newer 1.6mm (.064") stainless appearing cable.... I like the idea of the smaller cable being a bit more flexible. (Neither are stainless most likely as both are magnetic.

If anyone can post the diameter of their hatch/hood cables perhaps we can see if the factory used different sizes...

Denis mentioned that he had 2mm ebrake cable...but that I hope is a misprint....as it seems too small for an e-brake cable....IMHO.

Steve

All,

I have located 3mm cable for the ebrakes, and also smaller cable for the hatches.

The sheathing is readily available in various types, nylon lined and unlined.

The sheath ends or ferrels are available from Wilkenson if you need to stay with the brass ones.

However, it is the pesky eyelets on the ends of the cables that is the problem!!!! I cannot find small eyelets....they are all for 3/16" cable and not 1/8". (1/8" is very close to 3mm.)

I have scoured the wire and cable websites, and local push-pull cable makes to no avail!

Now, I also wonder, after seeing Denis' picture of 1244, what the rest of the earlier cars connection to the brake mechanism looks like. That is way different than my car, and even different from Panteras.

I fear, with later cars, that too many changes have been made, to use them as examples to make judgments for earlier cars!!!

"....must exercise caution....!!!! "
or

"Your mileage may vary!"
Steve

Pantera ebrake cable- note ends are different. See pic below. (Courtesy of Panteras by Wilkenson)

I would like know how youse guys feel about having a stamped & formed steel end on the cable, similar to what you see below on the Pantera cable, that would still accept a clevis pin, vs having the formed end or bronze end that you see in the pic's previously?????

It is turning out that not many folks are in the cable end business any longer! With manufacturers going off shore, and consolidating operations, they are killing some of these specialty businesses!!!

Lemmeno,
Steve

Steve, now you've got me wondering too. Denis and I are fortunate to share late cars and close proximity. We have also just added another late Mangusta to our group, although about 100 miles away. Still, even with three late cars (spanning only about 60 vins) we have already noticed differences. It is hard to really know what is original and what has been changed over the years (more than I originally thought on my car).

Keep up the great posts!

Mark

As a note re brazing clevis-ends onto cables: this is not only difficult to do as Steve says, it also anneals the carbon-steel wires in the cable, softening the heat-treated wire and weakening it. This is the main reason manufacturers swedge ends onto wire-rope-type cables, besides the expense of brazing. While this likely won't weaken the cables too much- given the leverage on cables from a std e-brake handle, I'd still opt for swedged ends, given a choice. I've brazed various cables including stainless steel, and they elongate under stress before breaking- indicating some annealing has happened, but giving one an inspection point. I had a little better results silver-soldering clevis ends on motorcycle clutch cables rather than brazing, due to lower torch temperatures. Look in the telephone book under "Riggers" for people who have cable-swedging equipment.

If you do use a torch, be sure to 'fan' out the wire ends on the other side of the clevis ends, to provide more surface area for braze or silver solder to grip.

Addendum: I was at Harbor Freight yesterday and noticed they sell a 'hydraulic cable-swedger' for $49.95, with a bunch of dies included. I didn't open the shipping box, but surely this could be made to work on most cables, even if some home-made steel shims were needed to take up slack in metric cables or ends.


Added by moderator: Hydraulic Wire Crimping Tool

All this talk has gotten me modivated to try my new cables. I will let you all know how they do, as I had 5 sets made at the same time as mine. They were created by a company in Ohio that makes cables for Hotrods, and they did a really nice job with the ends. They are all breaded SS.

We

WE!

How about some photos? Of your brake affair, and of the cable ends specifically???

You may be able to offload some cables rather quickly! ...before I can find parts to make them with....which is proving most difficult at the moment!!!

Steve

brake update. I went up to see how the new cables were installed in the car. The cables that came off the car, worked on two pulleys. The car has a third that looks like it was added later. So, the cables I had made work for the two pulley model. The ends are new, but they are molded and fit perfectly. Now, each one of these cars was hand built, so I am not saying that they will fit every goose. I also had the cable from the handle through to the pulley sheathed.

I am going to take some pictures, and i will post them over the weekend. I had 4 sets made, so if someone is interested in trying it in their goose let me know. I spent $92 on each one, and you can have it for what it cost me.

Thanks and stay tuned.

We

WE,

Be sure to spec out the lengths of the center to center of the clevis pin holes, the length of each of the outer sheathings, and I would love a picture of the clevis eye, or however the ends were terminated.

Am learning a lot about the cable business trying to find proper eyelets...that not many have an interest in!

Steve

I got up to look at the mangusta, and take it for a quick spin at the restoration shop. The cables worked great. I would think that they could be a little shorter, but looking at several other people's cars, they look the same. The eyelets look thiner than the orginals, but the company that made them said they are standard and should hold up for a long time.

On the pulley front, it seems that someone had modified the goose to use Pantera cables, and to make up for the lenght they had added another pulley on the other side of the engine. I checked with Santiago and he can not find any indication that this would have been done at the factory. So, it has been removed and the brake passed inspection.

We

WE,

In your pic, there is nothing to gauge size with, but the eyelet appears to be very long, which on most configurations I believe is going to be an issue in that it limits travel of the cable.

Since we can't see the cable installed, we have no idea if these would begin to work in other cars... Denis posted pic's of his cable in #1244 above, and it has the spring like you have, however, his car is very late and unlike the majority of cars built IMHO.

Thus far, I am beginning to think that there could be up to five types of cables built....
(So far two different lengths C-C have been mentioned)

Early 4-headlamp
Early flip-up headlamps
Late 4 headlamp
Late flip-up
Hand brake lever on floor?

So having new ones made could be a crap shoot!!!! Need to find some sort of reference point from which to start if one wanted to provide ready to go cables...

I agree with you, anyone who is hoping to make up cables to sell them is NUTS. Since I had one that worked on #1040, I had a replacement made and two spares. If someone thinks that they will fit, they are welcome to try them out. If not, well then you have an example of one being made.

If you got that route, here is the place where I had them made.
VICTOR MARK
CONTROL CABLES INC
9816 ALBURTIS AVE
SANTA FE SPRINGS,CA 90670
P-562-949-0455
F-562-949-0595
EMAIL VIC@CONTROLCABLES.COM

WE

I have spoken to these guys already. I believe they make the Pantera version for one of the vendors.

Thank-you for the measurement! That eyelet is 2" long, and in my case, would take up almost all of the available space for cable movement! Distance is limited by the hand fab'd bracket that holds the cable end, and is also affected by the "adapter" that extends the arm and goes from a female clevis to a female clevis....

I haven't seen any shots from any other folks that may still have the "normal" aluminum Girling rear calipers to tell me if what I have is (again!!!) another odd part or not!!! (Because I have the cast iron Fiat Girling calipers)

Seems to be my problem with playing with this expensive toy!!!! Everything is just slightly different than everyone elses!!!

Update: Just got pricing back on some eyelets.... $18-20 each and they are not an exact fit so would need a tad more work to fit properly! Minimum qty=50! Ugh!

Have we 25 owners needing cables?????

Thanks!
Steve

Still waiting for someone with an early car to update this thread with a picture of your rear caliper and e-brake connections, similar to what I did a bunch of posts up......

Thanks!
Steve

Ok, Steve- now I feel guilty since I promised this before Christmas....

In the attached shots (if they attach!) the 4 jacket ends and clevises all appear to be cast brass. The clevises are surfaced at the connection ends to make a washer 0.31 thick. jacket ends are 0.550"OD x 0.550 long, with a 0.470ID, 0,437" deep counterbore. The nipple-end of each jacket is 0.350 OD x 0.250 long, with a 0.165 cable hole clear through.

Forgot to mention: the e-brake cable pictured above measures 89- 89.5" long end to end, and the whole setup is for '69 Mangusta s/n 0760 with the big aluminum Girling rear calipers and sheet metal e-brake caliper arms. All 4 brass cable-jacket ends appear identical.

OK, if you go waaaaay back to the last post on the first page, I mentioned that my cable measured 88" center to center on the holes. Which is very close to what you have....

What I still have not seen posted, is the actual ebrake mechanism (and cable hookups) on one of the two pot rear calipers! I want to understand if they are similar to my three pot or something completely different!

Steve

Here is a picture

Here is pic of eBrake cable end from 8MA1244

The Spruce Aircraft catalog has all kinds of cable ends.

Dick Ruzzin

Yes they do. None of them will work for me.

YMMV! (Your mileage may vary!)

Steve