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Hi, Gunner. 35 GPM is about half the water flow a road car needs to stay cool. Many of the electric water pumps are meant for drag racing where they only need to deal with short runs, not hours on the road at high load. It would work as a supplemental pump to a stocker, but that's not quite what you're looking for.
There are a few electrics that have far higher flow (and price), but I've only seen one (by Mezeir) on a near-stock Pantera that drove from LA to 'Vegas successfully. Engine temp rose to 220 at one point and this was NOT a high-output motor, but he made the 400 mile round trip without damage. Some trimming was needed to the steel access door frame, as I remember.
If you're like to explore the short pump thing further and are handy, Ford Motorsports sells a so-called 'short water pump' for 351-W street rod use. With a small amount of hand work, that particular pump can be adapted to a 351-C block and works well. Remember, with this pump you will need a shallow pump pulley, which Ford has discontinued. Pulleys are not hard to make from scratch, and other companies such as Snow-White in CA sell shallow pulleys as well that may fit. If you make your own, you get to change pulley ratios for more water flow at one end or the other of the rev-range.
Next (or alternatively), you can move the whole powertrain backwards about 3/4" by using the second set of motormount bolt-holes provided (or by swapping the upper halves side-to-side). Once done, the rearmost ZF mount-tabs must be bent backward into a shallow 'S' by 3/4" and an extra 3/4" thick spacer installed on both ZF mount sides. This only works for later ZF mounts, not the early single-point mount. Do not get greedy with backward-movements; move more than about 3/4" and the step in the oil pan hits the under-engine crossmember, causing more trouble.
If both of the above are done, the firewall blister in the steel access door and upholstery goes completely away, leaving a flat firewall. In various past POCA Newsletters, I documented all this as done on our '72-L model. Works fine on the street.
There are a few electrics that have far higher flow (and price), but I've only seen one (by Mezeir) on a near-stock Pantera that drove from LA to 'Vegas successfully. Engine temp rose to 220 at one point and this was NOT a high-output motor, but he made the 400 mile round trip without damage. Some trimming was needed to the steel access door frame, as I remember.
If you're like to explore the short pump thing further and are handy, Ford Motorsports sells a so-called 'short water pump' for 351-W street rod use. With a small amount of hand work, that particular pump can be adapted to a 351-C block and works well. Remember, with this pump you will need a shallow pump pulley, which Ford has discontinued. Pulleys are not hard to make from scratch, and other companies such as Snow-White in CA sell shallow pulleys as well that may fit. If you make your own, you get to change pulley ratios for more water flow at one end or the other of the rev-range.
Next (or alternatively), you can move the whole powertrain backwards about 3/4" by using the second set of motormount bolt-holes provided (or by swapping the upper halves side-to-side). Once done, the rearmost ZF mount-tabs must be bent backward into a shallow 'S' by 3/4" and an extra 3/4" thick spacer installed on both ZF mount sides. This only works for later ZF mounts, not the early single-point mount. Do not get greedy with backward-movements; move more than about 3/4" and the step in the oil pan hits the under-engine crossmember, causing more trouble.
If both of the above are done, the firewall blister in the steel access door and upholstery goes completely away, leaving a flat firewall. In various past POCA Newsletters, I documented all this as done on our '72-L model. Works fine on the street.
Gunner,
Kirk Evans' bulkhead reduction kit doesn't require the use of a "short" water pump, so just pick the one you like best. I've used both Edelbrock and Stewart with the kit.
Kirk Evans' bulkhead reduction kit doesn't require the use of a "short" water pump, so just pick the one you like best. I've used both Edelbrock and Stewart with the kit.
A 35GPM electric water pump is insufficient???!!!...REALLY???!!...that's 1 gallon every 2 seconds!!!.
Can a Pantera radiator, even an upgraded one flow 1 gallon of water EVERY 2 seconds??!!...I say...NO WAY!!!, and actually too MUCH flow is counter-productive...
As an experiment to prove my point...get a 1 gallon bucket, take your home's garden hose, turn UP the water pressure FULL BLAST & see if you can FILL UP the 1 gallon bucket in 2 seconds...NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!...Mark
There are some cautions to be observed in increasing coolant flow rate, however. Going too far may result in aeration and foaming of the coolant, possible damage to the radiator by overpressure, cavitation of the pump, due to excessive pressure drop through the radiator, and erosion of the radiator tubes. The ideal coolant flow rate is one that will provide optimum coolant flow velocity through the radiator tubes in the range of 6 to 8 feet per second. Flow velocities above 10 feet per second should be avoided.
Can a Pantera radiator, even an upgraded one flow 1 gallon of water EVERY 2 seconds??!!...I say...NO WAY!!!, and actually too MUCH flow is counter-productive...
As an experiment to prove my point...get a 1 gallon bucket, take your home's garden hose, turn UP the water pressure FULL BLAST & see if you can FILL UP the 1 gallon bucket in 2 seconds...NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!...Mark
There are some cautions to be observed in increasing coolant flow rate, however. Going too far may result in aeration and foaming of the coolant, possible damage to the radiator by overpressure, cavitation of the pump, due to excessive pressure drop through the radiator, and erosion of the radiator tubes. The ideal coolant flow rate is one that will provide optimum coolant flow velocity through the radiator tubes in the range of 6 to 8 feet per second. Flow velocities above 10 feet per second should be avoided.
Note that the 35 GPM is at zero pressure. I do not know of anyone that has measured the head loss through the pantera system. I would look at using the 55 GPM pump. The actual flow will be controlled by the head loss through all the tubing, radiator, engine, thermostat etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by forestg:
Note that the 35 GPM is at zero pressure. I do not know of anyone that has measured the head loss through the pantera system. I would look at using the 55 GPM pump. The actual flow will be controlled by the head loss through all the tubing, radiator, engine, thermostat etc.[/QUOTE
I DON't believe the Pantera system is able to flow 35GPM, so WHY install a 55GPM pump?...Mark
Note that the 35 GPM is at zero pressure. I do not know of anyone that has measured the head loss through the pantera system. I would look at using the 55 GPM pump. The actual flow will be controlled by the head loss through all the tubing, radiator, engine, thermostat etc.[/QUOTE
I DON't believe the Pantera system is able to flow 35GPM, so WHY install a 55GPM pump?...Mark
Because the 55 GPM pump will not put out anywhere close to that with the head losses existent in the Pantera.
According to Stewart Components, a "typical" engine flows 100 GPM of coolant! That sounds like a lot of coolant to me but Stewart Components know what they're talking about. Most NASCAR teams use their water pumps.
They make a 55 GPM electric pump; however, they state it's only suitable to be used as a booster pump; not as an engine's primary water pump.
They make a 55 GPM electric pump; however, they state it's only suitable to be used as a booster pump; not as an engine's primary water pump.
I have a 408 Windsor with a fluidyne radiator and I have been running a 35gpm
pump on it for two years on the street with zero heating issues. Hope that helps.
pump on it for two years on the street with zero heating issues. Hope that helps.
I have successfully used an electric water pump on both the Ultima at 600HP and GT40, with both having similar cooling system to a Pantera. Both are remote 55 gpm pumps by Meziere, available in a number of styles with built in thermostat and two outs (heater circuit) if required.
I will be using an electric pump on my '74 when it is rebuilt.
Julian
I will be using an electric pump on my '74 when it is rebuilt.
Julian
100 GPM is 1-1/2 gallons per SECOND!!!...quote:Originally posted by David_Nunn:
According to Stewart Components, a "typical" engine flows 100 GPM of coolant! That sounds like a lot of coolant to me but Stewart Components know what they're talking about. Most NASCAR teams use their water pumps.
They make a 55 GPM electric pump; however, they state it's only suitable to be used as a booster pump; not as an engine's primary water pump.
Maybe I'm naive!!...I DON'T see a radiator capable of flowing 1-1/2 gallons per SECOND!!!.
For that matter I don't believe a FULLY OPENED 351 Cleveland thermostat would/could allow 1-1/2 gallons per second!!!...Mark
Gunner,
Another option is the Australian-made Davies Craig electric water pump. I have been using their EWP115 and thermostatic controller. At 30.38 gallons/minute with my 550hp+ Ford Racing Big Block I have experienced no boil overs or high temps. This includes stop and go traffic in 100 degree F ambients, trips over 100 miles at 80+ mph and some high speed running for short bursts. They recently introduced the EWP150 which flows 40 gpm.
I mounted my pump directly behind the radiator (see picture).
The big advantage is that coolant flow rate is not dependant on engine speed. There is no compromise in having adequate flow at idle and not sucking up too much power at high engine speeds. In addition, you can continue to run the pump after the engine shuts down, helping to prevent boil over.
Another option is the Australian-made Davies Craig electric water pump. I have been using their EWP115 and thermostatic controller. At 30.38 gallons/minute with my 550hp+ Ford Racing Big Block I have experienced no boil overs or high temps. This includes stop and go traffic in 100 degree F ambients, trips over 100 miles at 80+ mph and some high speed running for short bursts. They recently introduced the EWP150 which flows 40 gpm.
I mounted my pump directly behind the radiator (see picture).
The big advantage is that coolant flow rate is not dependant on engine speed. There is no compromise in having adequate flow at idle and not sucking up too much power at high engine speeds. In addition, you can continue to run the pump after the engine shuts down, helping to prevent boil over.
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Just some more food for thought.
I am building an LS7 powered Pantera, hardcore street, building it so it can withstand heavy track duty.
In order to move the engine as far forward as I can in my build, I initially opted to run dual 55 GPM remote Meziere pumps. I know a bunch of folks have had success with a single 55gpm Meziere on these style cars (GT-40s, GTMs) even on hot track days. My thoughts were if 1 was good, 2 pumps in parallel was even better.
Well I ended up calling Meziere and talking with their technical support. Even with the twin pumps this was not recommended by the Meziere folks, they said (paraphrasing here) that in their opinion a dual parallel 55 GPM pump set up would be experimental for a 30 minute track day period with a 700hp flywheel car.
Instead they suggested using a WP430 remote operated belt driven pump (originated from a sprint car pump, apparently its pretty well used in the land speed/bonneville realm). This pump puts out just over 100gpm at max rpm, but the real difference is the head pressure it develops. That's what Meziere tech folks really educated me about.
I've attached a flow/pressure pump of the WP430 and below is a link to where some rodders on another board did a test on all of these Remote water pumps to determine the real flow rate/pressure developed (Post 1 thumbnail, just enlarge to view)
http://www.lingenfelter.com/LP...flow-testing-results
After looking at all the data I wanted to stay with a mechanical pump, so I ended up going with the WP430, and a remote 55 GPM Meziere on a bypass line to help with idle/low rpm cruising.
My application does not direct apply to you, but I am a proponent of making sure you're fully educated prior to committing to a mod. So take this with a grain of salt if you like.
FYI: You can fit two 55GPM Remote Meziere pumps side by side, under the front trunk, between and under the front sway bar and steering rack, you will need to make new coolant pipes though.
Thanks,
Dave
I am building an LS7 powered Pantera, hardcore street, building it so it can withstand heavy track duty.
In order to move the engine as far forward as I can in my build, I initially opted to run dual 55 GPM remote Meziere pumps. I know a bunch of folks have had success with a single 55gpm Meziere on these style cars (GT-40s, GTMs) even on hot track days. My thoughts were if 1 was good, 2 pumps in parallel was even better.
Well I ended up calling Meziere and talking with their technical support. Even with the twin pumps this was not recommended by the Meziere folks, they said (paraphrasing here) that in their opinion a dual parallel 55 GPM pump set up would be experimental for a 30 minute track day period with a 700hp flywheel car.
Instead they suggested using a WP430 remote operated belt driven pump (originated from a sprint car pump, apparently its pretty well used in the land speed/bonneville realm). This pump puts out just over 100gpm at max rpm, but the real difference is the head pressure it develops. That's what Meziere tech folks really educated me about.
I've attached a flow/pressure pump of the WP430 and below is a link to where some rodders on another board did a test on all of these Remote water pumps to determine the real flow rate/pressure developed (Post 1 thumbnail, just enlarge to view)
http://www.lingenfelter.com/LP...flow-testing-results
After looking at all the data I wanted to stay with a mechanical pump, so I ended up going with the WP430, and a remote 55 GPM Meziere on a bypass line to help with idle/low rpm cruising.
My application does not direct apply to you, but I am a proponent of making sure you're fully educated prior to committing to a mod. So take this with a grain of salt if you like.
FYI: You can fit two 55GPM Remote Meziere pumps side by side, under the front trunk, between and under the front sway bar and steering rack, you will need to make new coolant pipes though.
Thanks,
Dave
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Gunner,
Here is a picture of the front of my engine. I used a blocking plate for marine applications in place of the mechanical water pump. It definitely opens up a lot of space in front of the engine!
Here is a picture of the front of my engine. I used a blocking plate for marine applications in place of the mechanical water pump. It definitely opens up a lot of space in front of the engine!
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Just out of curiosity has anyone ever measured the head pressure in a pantera with a known pump?
I was thinking of running two electric pumps for redundancy. There is a pump made by pierburg used in some bmws that provides 57 GPM at 7psi and 26 GPM at 14psi. Seems like pretty good flow at pressure. They also have built in circuitry for PWM control so they can be easily controlled with a fuel injection ecu output.
With the Pantera sometimes being difficult to purge, I think an electric pump is a great option.
Anyone aware of an electric pump pushing more than 55gpm?
What does the factory style pump do?
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What does the factory style pump do?
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I read a long time ago that Edelbrock dyno's their water pumps. I wonder if someone can contact them and ask if they can share that data?
Of course it has been years since I took physics in college, but I believe restrictions in the block, heads, T-stat etc, will restrict flow, therby increasing pressure (if the pump is capable) which directly decreases pump output.
Also, as mentioned above, sending coolant thru much faster reduces heat exchange and lowers cooling capability. It is actually a complicated dance.
The bulk of my experience is with closed cooling in an hi-performance (yes, Ford powered) boat. One of the ways I increased cooling capacity is by increasing the number of passes thru the exchanger (radiator) before returning to the engine. No change in pump needed.
Just my 2 cents.
.
Also, as mentioned above, sending coolant thru much faster reduces heat exchange and lowers cooling capability. It is actually a complicated dance.
The bulk of my experience is with closed cooling in an hi-performance (yes, Ford powered) boat. One of the ways I increased cooling capacity is by increasing the number of passes thru the exchanger (radiator) before returning to the engine. No change in pump needed.
Just my 2 cents.
.
quote:Originally posted by ItalFord:
I read a long time ago that Edelbrock dyno's their water pumps. I wonder if someone can contact them and ask if they can share that data?
I can't believe that water pump flow/head/rpm curves are not readily available. extensive googling today only found the following link where one did call edelbrock and obtained data for thier pump
http://www.clubcobra.com/forum...-specifications.html
I wish they had at least included the head drop across the heads they used during thier flow testing
reading between the lines answered one question for me...I have seen where "NASCAR" water pump flow rates are +100 gpm, the comment in the post was this is due to NASCAR intentionally restricting AIR flow through the radiator, thus the need for greater water flow
quote:Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
Just out of curiosity has anyone ever measured the head pressure in a pantera with a known pump?
another "I can't believe"! IF I had been interested in Panteras during the period when I was capable, I would have had to measure this, especially given the redoric I've seen recently about the inadaquancies of the original cooling system
even though the flow rates do approach 100 gpm at high rpms, I would wonder how much flow was truelly needed and would be concern that "overheating" could occur with those expected flows due to actual flow being less due to cavatation influanced by actual system head lossed
We have the technology!!! I will weld in some bungs to the water pipes when I do my new setup. Its quite easy for me to measure as I have plenty of fluid sensors kicking around and an ECU that can read the differential. Wont happen for a few months anyway.quote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
another "I can't believe"! IF I had been interested in Panteras during the period when I was capable, I would have had to measure this, especially given the redoric I've seen recently about the inadaquancies of the original cooling system
even though the flow rates do approach 100 gpm at high rpms, I would wonder how much flow was truelly needed and would be concern that "overheating" could occur with those expected flows due to actual flow being less due to cavatation influanced by actual system head lossed
at the rate I'm going, a few months will be well before I could!
getting temperture and pressure drops are basic, do you have the technology for flow?
For actual values, a calibrated device would be needed, but I was thinking an orifice and a manometer might be in the ball park.
getting temperture and pressure drops are basic, do you have the technology for flow?
For actual values, a calibrated device would be needed, but I was thinking an orifice and a manometer might be in the ball park.
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I do have flow meters however they are for methanol injection flow so are very small. I suppose I could install one in some sort of a shunt configuration and do some calculations to figure out main circuit flow. It may not be 100 percent accurate but close enough.
I can only see being able to measure flow to radiator, but not what is recircing via the thermastat not being fully open during data gathering. Of course any data would have to specify the car's equipment.
I would think having an orifice monitor radiator flow as a perment gauge could give an indication of caviation at high rpm as temp would increase and flow fall.
I found some test plugs that claim they would allow insertion and removal of pressure of temp probe with system in service
http://www.petersenproducts.co...ure_Petes_Plugs.aspx
I would think having an orifice monitor radiator flow as a perment gauge could give an indication of caviation at high rpm as temp would increase and flow fall.
I found some test plugs that claim they would allow insertion and removal of pressure of temp probe with system in service
http://www.petersenproducts.co...ure_Petes_Plugs.aspx
My system will not have a thermostat. It will be purely controlled by modulation of pump speed to maintain temperature therefore will not be as accurate for a stock system. Everything from firewall forward will remain stock configuration but with upgraded rad.
You should be able to know your flow based upon the pump speed. I would think pierburg provided such a curve and you would only need to correct due to restrictive pressure from plumbing.
which reminds me, beside the water pump manufactors not readily providing a flow(pressure)/rpm curve. I would think the radiator manufactors would provide a pressure/flow curve. that would be better than orifice
Do you know the method those MWI sensors mesure flow? so far I have not found googling.
EDIT: (bare with me as I am learning)
If you run an electric water pump without thermostat, what do you do about bypass flow during warmup
which reminds me, beside the water pump manufactors not readily providing a flow(pressure)/rpm curve. I would think the radiator manufactors would provide a pressure/flow curve. that would be better than orifice
Do you know the method those MWI sensors mesure flow? so far I have not found googling.
EDIT: (bare with me as I am learning)
If you run an electric water pump without thermostat, what do you do about bypass flow during warmup
Yes I do have flow charts for the cwa400 pump. This particular setup allows pump speed to be controlled. I can turn down the pump to next to no flow. It may take a minor bit more time to warm up depending on how low the flow can be turned down but I haven't had a heater for 7 years anyway. I will be using my ECU for control but you can also purchase these http://www.tecomotive.com/en/tinycwa-en for a standalone application. The methanol injection flow sensors are a turbine sensor If I remember correctly. They output either a vr output or hall effect pulse. I cant remember which. Here is the flow chaft for the pierburg units. 
Being that I live about 90 miles south of you, I had to convert cubic meters.
There is 264.2 gallons per cubic meter.
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There is 264.2 gallons per cubic meter.
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Lol, I am from Louisiana anyhow but I go mostly by liters these days. These pumps are made in Germany though. I suppose thats whats up with the whole m3/h thing.
^^^ ah, I thought you were in Victoria B.C.
To be clear, you are using these pumps for coolant, correct?
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To be clear, you are using these pumps for coolant, correct?
.
I do live in Victoria but originally from the states. The two larger pumps (CWA200 and CWA400) are designed to be used as primary cooling pumps for some BMW OEM engines like the Z4. The smaller ones are I think typically used as air/water intercooler circulation pumps. The nice thing about these pumps is that they have all of the high current circuitry built in for speed control. You feed them a 12v high current wire, ground, and a single low current wire feeding a square wave signal with varying duty cycle. 13% duty cycle is minimum speed and 90% duty cycle is full speed. This is easily configurable in most aftermarket fuel injection computers.
For myself and others that think in Imperial units.
I'll assume this one curve is for pump at full speed. I used typical pump performance relationship to derive the curves for operating the pump at 80%, 60%, 40% & 20% rated speed.
If you take the pressure across the pump at the various pump speed it will provide the restriction curve for flow through block, heads and radiator
I'll assume this one curve is for pump at full speed. I used typical pump performance relationship to derive the curves for operating the pump at 80%, 60%, 40% & 20% rated speed.
If you take the pressure across the pump at the various pump speed it will provide the restriction curve for flow through block, heads and radiator
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