Engine Rebuild Questions

Are you going to have the existing pedestal mounted rocker arms machined off?

Are your 4V heads "open" or "closed chambered"?

Pedestals do not need to be machined for the 505 cam.

Valley Head service is still in business as far as I know. They were once a hot spot for performance head work. Ask for the "old man", I forget his name. He knew the Cleveland heads. He'll be quite old if he's even still around. Happens to all of us. Even if the old man isn't around, they should be able to do the basic work.

There's a guy in Valencia that builds Ford race engines. I can't think of his name at the moment either. He's not a Cleveland expert mind you. If it were me I might be tempted to crate-up the engine and ship it to Jim Kuntz.

My first post in this thread reads like the cliff notes version of sticky #3: See Post #7

The heads are the closed chamber quench heads. My plan at present is to use Yella Terra rockers with the stock mounting and the good bolts.

Thanks George. I do intend to follow your sticky3. My goal is a strong running factory type motor along the lines of the Boss 351 spec or maybe the Euro GTS motor. (Weren't they pretty similar?) Doubt the motor will see anything north of 6000 rpm. Based upon your experience, when I employ a pro to build heads and or an engine, should I collect the parts or do they buy them?

George, the fellow in Valencia. Could it be Jim Grubbs Motorsports?

The fellow in Valencia IS Jim Grubbs. Mind you, there are a couple of other possibilities in the South Bay (Torrance) area that have reputations building Cleveland engines, possibilities if you don't mind driving a bit further. If you're interested let me know & I can find them for you. Its not that Jim Grubbs doesn't have a good reputation, its just that the 351C is a specialty engine, and there are few specialists around.

Your engine mechanic can supply parts that are readily available, you should supply any parts that are rare, hard to find, or frequently sold out.

Whaddya mean the engine won't see north of 6000 rpm? Build it right and it will be hard to avoid it. The engine will invite you to rev it hard.

The GTS was just equipped with hydraulic cammed production engines, equipped with a few bolt-on parts like high capacity oil pans and Holley carburetors, and retuned by De Tomaso to eliminate the smog tuning. The 351C engines acquired from the US had either 8.6:1 or 8.0:1 compression, those acquired from Australia had about 9:1 compression.

Thanks George, I would be very interested in finding a builder with Cleveland experience without having to crate up the motor. Torrance is not too far away. My wife's family lives in Camarillo and we frequently make a trek south and frequently I'm looking for a mother in law diversion.
A new set of questions; do I need to finalize my camshaft choice before the heads are assembled? I not sure how much lope I want the cam and don't think I've heard a 351c with a 505 cam. Does it sound similar to a hydraulic version of the Boss 351? If the idle is set up to say 1000 rpm, does it smooth out? Or would I be better off seeking out a custom grind that may offer similar performance with a smooth(er) idle and still have the durability of a factory grind? Or do I need to worry about this yet and just use the the Crane 99839 springs?

quote:

Originally posted by SteveD:
Thanks George, I would be very interested in finding a builder with Cleveland experience without having to crate up the motor. Torrance is not too far away. My wife's family lives in Camarillo and we frequently make a trek south and frequently I'm looking for a mother in law diversion.
A new set of questions; do I need to finalize my camshaft choice before the heads are assembled? I not sure how much lope I want the cam and don't think I've heard a 351c with a 505 cam. Does it sound similar to a hydraulic version of the Boss 351? If the idle is set up to say 1000 rpm, does it smooth out? Or would I be better off seeking out a custom grind that may offer similar performance with a smooth(er) idle and still have the durability of a factory grind? Or do I need to worry about this yet and just use the the Crane 99839 springs?

Ask your engine builder.

quote:

do I need to finalize my camshaft choice before the heads are assembled?

That would be a good idea because the cam specs determine what valve springs you need.

Your Greatest asset is your willingness to be pleased with a 6,000 RPMs "redline".

Because of this, you will avoid excessively HIGH valve spring pressures & aggressive camshaft profiles & the need/s for exotic materials like titanium & needle roller rocker arms, H-beam connecting rods, bushed lifter bores, stud girdles, ad nauseum!, thus providing yourself with a longevity based engine build along with a relatively budget friendly expenditure...Mark

quote:

Originally posted by SteveD:
... I would be very interested in finding a builder with Cleveland experience without having to crate up the motor. Torrance is not too far away. My wife's family lives in Camarillo and we frequently make a trek south and frequently I'm looking for a mother in law diversion ...

Valley Head Service still runs a full engine shop, they can do the head work and build the engine.

Valley Head Service
Northridge, California
Owner: Larry Ofria (the old man)
(818) 993-7000
Larry was part of the golden era of Pro Stock and Comp Eliminator Clevelands.
They developed engines for both Shelby and Ford during the 1960s.
Its a shop with history going back to the Total Performance Era.
Larry trained Mark Degroff, the legendary M/P and Comp record holding Cleveland builder.

The guy in Torrance is Ron Shaver.

Shaver Specialties
Torrance, California
Owner: Ron Shaver
(310) 370-6941
Ron is highly respected engine builder.
He has an employee named Manny who may be the best machinist on the West Coast.

Another choice, but a bit farther away is Troy Bowen.

Ford Performance Solutions
Anaheim, California
Owner: Troy Bowen
(714) 773-9027
Troy is a protégé of Dyno Don Nicholson and has built some very stout Cleveland’s.

Also in Anaheim:

Russ Fulp Racing Engines & B.L. Machine
Anaheim, California
Owner: Russ Fulp
(714) 870-8570
Russ has built engines for several Pantera owners

quote:

Originally posted by SteveD:
... A new set of questions; do I need to finalize my camshaft choice before the heads are assembled? I not sure how much lope I want the cam and don't think I've heard a 351c with a 505 cam. Does it sound similar to a hydraulic version of the Boss 351? If the idle is set up to say 1000 rpm, does it smooth out? Or would I be better off seeking out a custom grind that may offer similar performance with a smooth(er) idle and still have the durability of a factory grind ...

As long as you stick to a flat tappet street cam there's no need to wait on the head work.

A 351C 4V with the 505 cam does have about the same idle as a Boss 351. The 505 cam has 4 degrees more overlap than the Boss 351 cam, a little more valve lift, and usually makes a few more horsepower all else being equal. The idle has a bit of lope to it, but not too much. Its kinda sinister sounding, like you know something mean is hiding inside. Everybody likes the idle of that cam. Its not an ultra-rough idle, which I find out-of-place in an Italian sports car. I guarantee the idle is as rough as it could get and still pass California smog inspection. The low rpm is just a tad softer than a 351C 4V with a cam having less overlap. But vacuum is still good enough. Yes the idle does smooth out if you raise the idle rpm.

Whether or not you want a better idle, or an idle with more lope, well that's up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveD:
... Or do I need to worry about this yet and just use the the Crane 99839 springs?

The Crane 99839 valve spring is the proper diameter & installed height for a Cleveland. Its a single spring plus damper. It coil binds at 0.660" lift. The seated force is 121 lbs, and the spring rate is 354 lbs./inch. The over the nose force with a 0.500" lift camshaft is 298 pounds, the over the nose force with a 0.600" lift camshaft is 333 pounds. Its dead-on perfect within the limits of where it needs to be for any street application I have come across. If you can find a better spring for flat tappet street applications, hydraulic tappet or solid tappet, let me know because I haven't come across it.

In 1992 Jim Grubbs Motorsports did the engine in 7102 for the PO. A lot like where you are headed, higher compression pistons, added '71 closed chamber heads, cammed up a bit, roller rockers. It's seen a Torker, a Blue Thunder and finally a Strip Dominator.
40,000 miles later it's still tight, no smoke, no funny noises, pulls strong. Starts easy hot or cold, I don't hesitate to drive it anywhere.

Thank you so much. And Larry, thanks for the testimonial. Looks like I have some solid options. What a great forum! Steve

Are spring cups required with the #99839 springs. Ive seen this spring recommended in other posts with #99459 cups but those cups are 0.300" thick. I emailed Crane but they said they don't make a cup for that spring. I'm slowly collecting parts following Georges Sticky #3 built around the latest "Cobrajet" cam recommendation.

Monty

I remember the spring cup information wasn't immediately available, I had to search for it ... a bit. But I found it.

Page 342 of the Crane valve spring catalog I downloaded from the internet specifies spring seat (cup) #99459 for spring number 99839.

I can produce this page if ever an employee of Crane wants to argue about it.

According to their specs valve spring #99839 is 1.500" OD, the spring cup #99459 is designed for springs up to 1.52" OD. Seems like there's 0.020" wiggle room. No big deal, eh?

The 10 degree titanium retainers were listed on the same page, but the 10 degree chromoly retainers required further searching.

These are AMC parts, it appears AMC parts are even more obscure than Cleveland Ford parts.

Buy the parts, keep the receipt, if they don't fit return them.

You'll love the Cobra Jet cam.

The only problem is that this same part is listed on pg362 as having a base thickness of 0.300" as an exhaust valve rotator eliminator for a BBC. I should speak to them directly before I buy.

Please let me know what you find out.

Keep in mind that a spring cup designed for any spring of the same OD will work. And the spring's 1.5" OD is fairly common for big block valve train.

...Did I misunderstand, or do You mean, the Spring cups are .030" Thick? .300"??
I was under the impression that spring cups are Only needed on Aluminum Heads?!
OR are you using them to Stabilize from 'Spring-Walk'?
Or using them Instead of Spring Shims, to Increase the Spring Pressures?

0.300" is what is listed in cranes catalogue as well as their retailers

and yes they will be utilized to stabilize 'spring walk" in which case I am presuming I will need +0.050" retainers to offset the 0.062" thickness (I'm guessing) of a spring cup.
Should I be concerned about spring walk with these springs and 0.567" lift and are cups even required with a cast iron head?
Again, I hope to have answers directly from Crane.

Thanks all who replied

The valve train of the 351 Boss engine had spring cups. Same iron heads. Less over the nose force, less lift than your engine. The idea is to stabilize the location of the spring where it mates with the head, to prevent it from squirming around, for a more stable valve train.

You'll need to fly-cut the spring seat area to accommodate the spring cup, and to make everything fit. Remember the installed height of the Crane spring is 0.020" less than the standard 351C installed height.

Called PAC racing springs as an alternative and they recommended the following
PAC-1900 spring - identical to Crane #99839
PAC-R405 10 deg titanium retainer +0.050"
PAC-L8025 steel lock
PAC-S112 spring seat 0.060" thick
If required I can swap out for PAC-L8027 +0.050" locks and use shims to fine tune installed height once everything is mocked up.

I finally found some time to take a look at the PAC Racing valve spring. Its not identical to the Crane spring, but yeah its close.

I have one concern with that spring, at PAC's rated 1.88" installed height the spring has only 98 pounds seated force. If you install the spring at the standard Cleveland height (1.82") the seated force is great (120 lbs) but the maximum lift is reduced to 0.540".

If it were me I would juggle the installed height to give me just enough maximum lift for the cam lobes & rocker arms you are using, while maximizing seated force as well.

I guess this is why people leave this stuff up to their engine builder to sort out but that would take all of the fun out of it.
Obviously more questions need to be asked especially since the spring loads and height charts for PAC and Crane are nearly the same.
The chart for PAC #1900 shows 90#@1.900"and 372#@1.115".
The chart for Crane #99839 shows 86#@1.900" and 359#@1.115".
Inside and outside diameters of 1.500" and 1.086" are identical and spring rates are 376#/in. and 354#/in.
PAC show a max lift of 0.600" in their catalogue and Crane shows 0.660" in theirs

If someone has installed the Pence Cobrajet cam and used a Crane (or other) spring package on iron 4V CC heads then please stop me from trying to reinvent this wheel.

Eternally grateful
Monty

I contacted PAC with the following:

"The lift of the hydraulic flat tappet cam I am using will be 0.568".

If my math is correct, using the 0.060"seats and +0.050" retainers that you recommend would put my valve closed (installed height) at 1.810" and the valve open at 1.242".

The chart on page 32 of your catalogue shows valve closed 98@1.880", valve open 315@1.300" max coil bind at 1.115" and a max lift of 0.600"

My question is: What is the maximum amount of spring compression before running the risk of coil bind? ie. If coil bind happens at 1.115" then is it safe to run the spring with a clearance of 0.060" or valve open at 1.175" or is it in fact 1.300" as stated on the chart.

This spring is a little week for my application at an installed height of 1.880" but is right on target at around 1.820". the open load at 1.242" is on target as well but if coil bind occurs at 1.280" (1.880"-0.600") or 1.300" then I am going to have big problem.

My thinking is that if coil bind happens at 1.115" and I require at least 0.060" clearance then I should be safe with the valve opening to 1.175".Is more clearance required?"

They responded with:

"You are correct. The spring does CB at 1.115" and you can run .06-.08" off of that number. You do not have to have open at 1.300"

Also You may want to look at a PAC-1218 beehive spring. This will go in at 1.800" with 130 seat and 310 open. Being that the chrome moly retainer for this spring is only 10g you would be saving a ton of weight."

Hope this helps

Thanks for sharing the update Monty. So how do you plan to proceed?

By the way, I do have part numbers for Crane spring cups designed for 1.5" OD springs. #99465 has 0.570" ID, #99455 has 0.637" ID.

I played with the lift numbers & coil bind numbers last night and came to the conclusion that with an installed height of 1.82" either spring should be good for up to 0.600" lift. Its cool that PAC's reply validates that. I believe Crane's rating of 0.660" max lift is based on an installed height of 1.88. At 1.82" installed height the Crane spring will have 114 pounds seated force, the PAC spring will have 120 pounds seated force.

I will be needing to update the valve train section of sticky #3 after I figure out how to make room for additional text.

1218X Beehive. Lighter weight and comparable cost. PAC was very helpful with suggestions.