Engine shut down while driving

Sounds more like electrical, could of broke the roll pin in the distributor. You would have to pull it out to know for sure, you may be able to pull the cap off and turn the rotor more than a little bit by hand this would also indicate a broken roll pin.

Check your grounds, and battery connections. Keep thinking it is something simple. a loose wire. check all other accersoies. That msd box needs 12 or more volts and a killer GROUND. There is a test to check your msd 8557 distributor? there is a given resistance that you can read through the pickuup in there under the cap. Be carful with the carb and fuel, If it is a fuel problem, a little squirt in the carb would make it fire. Still BE CAREful Usually fuel problems cause sputtering at least. Listen to George too!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
Sounds more like electrical, could of broke the roll pin in the distributor. You would have to pull it out to know for sure, you may be able to pull the cap off and turn the rotor more than a little bit by hand this would also indicate a broken roll pin.

MBL,

Your symptoms are "classic" sheared roll pin, but that doesn't rule out other possibilities. It could also be a loose wire, a blown fuse, or, depending upon how you have run the wiring to your new ignition, it may even be a burned contact somewhere, like for instance at the ignition switch. Then of course, there's the electronics themsleves, the MSD 6A boxes are known to fail from time to time.

There is an easy way to rule out the sheared roll pin. Remove the distributor cap & crank the motor with the starter, if the distributor's rotor turns, the roll pin is OK. If the rotor doesn't move, the roll pin has sheared.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

FWIW, this happened to me last summer and it turned out to be the coil wire from the distributor. Somehow, it had gotten laid over by the headers, burned & shorted out on me, killing the engine. Hopefully, your problem will turn out to be as simple a fix as mine was. Good Luck!

Bob

MBL,

I wanted to also mention that I'm only a few hours down the coast from you. If you get to a point where you're stumped, contact me, I'd be willing to shoot up the coast this weekend.

gp_fillmore@yahoo.com

George

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Mensen:
Sounds more like electrical, could of broke the roll pin in the distributor. You would have to pull it out to know for sure, you may be able to pull the cap off and turn the rotor more than a little bit by hand this would also indicate a broken roll pin.

MBL,

Your symptoms are "classic" sheared roll pin, but that doesn't rule out other possibilities. It could also be a loose wire, a blown fuse, or, depending upon how you have run the wiring to your new ignition, it may even be a burned contact somewhere, like for instance at the ignition switch. Then of course, there's the electronics themsleves, the MSD 6A boxes are known to fail from time to time.

There is an easy way to rule out the sheared roll pin. Remove the distributor cap & crank the motor with the starter, if the distributor's rotor turns, the roll pin is OK. If the rotor doesn't move, the roll pin has sheared.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Great, I'm off to the garage. Thanks for the replys and info.

...My money is on the 'Sheared roll pin'. Take the cap off the distributor and turn the rotor, if it turns more than the normal centrifugal advance, and keeps going freely; you'll have your answer...

...ofcourse if this was the case you should have noticed ZERO oil pressure on the gauge!...

I had a simular problem.
Running along great and then it shut down. Would crank but would not start.

It finally ended up to be a loose connection from the distributor plug wire to the blaster coil on the blaster plug wire side.

if the roll pin is sheared , there could be an obstruction in the oil pump ie oem valve stem umbrella seals white plastic/or black petrifed rubber begin to break down into little 1/8 in chunks. if the pump is seized check the hex drive shaft to see that it isnt twisted like a barber pole!

Well, here's what I have done so far. I checked for a loose or burned coil wire, but it looks good. I checked for the sheared roll pin, but the distributor rotates fine while cranking the engine and isn't loose, and finally I checked for a spark at a plug with my timing light and there is one. So, I now suspect fuel. Next I'll check for fuel getting to the carb, and go from there. BTW, George thank you so much for the offer to drive up and help. I just may take you up on the offer. It's been cold but beautiful here. It would be a beautiful drive up the coast.

Dougos Pantera wouldn't run. He had wired the original power wire from the oem ignition to power his new MSD ready to run distributor. The oem ignition circuit is routed through the ignition switch. The MSD igition operates at a much higher current than the oem breaker point ignition. The voltage drop across the ignition switch at that current level was too much, there was not enough voltage to operate the MSD ignition. So we installed a relay to control power to the MSD distributor, controlling the relay with that same power wire from the oem ignition circuit, but now the high current was switched by the relay contacts which were designed for that level of current. It has run fine ever since.

George

You deffinantly need to determin weather it is fuel related or spark related before focusing on one or the other.

Working on cars by computer is almost better than bench racing!

Id still grab that rotor and make sure it doesnt turn by force with your hand beyond the mechanical advance.

Its possible (I think) that there is enough friction for it to turn with engine starter even with a broken roll pin

Mark,

The distibutor shaft is connected to the oil pump, normally the rotor will not turn if the shear pin has sheared, as the force to rotate the gear on the shaft is less than the force to spin the oil pump.

MB L,

Pull a spark plug, reconnect the plug wire to the plug, lay it on the engine block, intake manifold, etc, somewhere it is grounded to bare metal, crank the motor while watching. You should see or hear it sparking.

If it is sparking, you still must ask yourself, is it sparking at the right time or has the timing chain slipped. Pull the distributor cap, manually rotate the crank until cylinder #1 is at TDC (indicated by the timing pointer & the scale on the balancer), the rotor should be pointed at the distributor cap post for cylinder #1. If not, turn the crank 360 degrees, back to where the balancer indicates cylinder #1 is at TDC, if wasn't pointed at terminal #1 before, it should be now, if not, your timing chain has slipped.

If you have a fuel problem, then the acelerator pumps should not squirt fuel when you mash the gas pedal. Cranking the motor with an ignition problem will result in wet spark plugs, so if you pull that plug I suggested above & it is wet, then your fuel system should be OK.

Normally when a either carb or mechanical fuel pump is having problems, they leave a puddle of fuel somewhere, unless the fuel tube inside the fuel tank is completely plugged somehow.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

...Are You by any chance running a 'Holley Machanical Fuel Pump?? My Engine stopped dead one time when one of the two 'pressed-In' Check Valves popped out of its' seat in a Near New Holley Chrome pump...

...If you have confirmed that you DO have 'Spark', check to see if your Carb Float bowls are dry?...

Looking down the carburator you should be able to see fuel squirt in when you open the carb with the linkage by hand. To check for fuel in the bowls, Holley carbs have a flat head plug near the top of each bowl. When removed the fuel should be right at the edge of the hole. You should be abe to shake the car a little and fuel come out. Still, to determine if it is timing or fuel.( we know we have spark) pour a couple of tablespoons down the carb and crank it. If it fires up........you can start checking fuel supply problems. If it does not fire you can start looking for timing problems..

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Are You by any chance running a 'Holley Machanical Fuel Pump?? My Engine stopped dead one time when one of the two 'pressed-In' Check Valves popped out of its' seat in a Near New Holley Chrome pump...

Marlin Jack, my fuel pump is mecanical and chrome, but I don't know if it is a Holly. It wa on when I bought the car. How did you determine the check valve popped out. What does it look like, is it on the outside of the fuel pump, or is it in the connection in from the tank or out to the carb?

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Dougos Pantera wouldn't run. He had wired the original power wire from the oem ignition to power his new MSD ready to run distributor. The oem ignition circuit is routed through the ignition switch. The MSD igition operates at a much higher current than the oem breaker point ignition. The voltage drop across the ignition switch at that current level was too much, there was not enough voltage to operate the MSD ignition. So we installed a relay to control power to the MSD distributor, controlling the relay with that same power wire from the oem ignition circuit, but now the high current was switched by the relay contacts which were designed for that level of current. It has run fine ever since.

George

George, WOW, you're starting scare me.....lol. Anyway, I may have confused you with my earlier problem description. I bought the car in August 2004. The engine had just been rebuilt and had 4K miles on it. The MSD ignition has been on the car that whole time. In spring of last year I replaced plugs, wires, rotor and cap trying to solve and misfire (it turned out to be wires). I replaced the starter with a new high spped/tork one from Wilkinson. In September I drove the car to Steve Wilkinson to have him go through the electrics (fix my horn and the relay panel) plus several other things. I drove the car back without incident, and it hasn't missed a beat since. This problem Sunday came out of the blue.

Mbl, One way to test the pump is to remove the fuel line from the carb, and stick it into a catch can or some kind of jar. Crank the engine over and it should pump every time the engine turns with out a lot of bubbles. NOW, be carful whe you do this because you don't want to spark and cause a fire. In fact you may want to remove the coil wire from the cap and keep it clear of a ground..put tape over it. A good stream tells ok pump.....bubbles mean it is sucking air in from the line between the pump and tank.

Do more than remove the coil wire...

MSD's are funny, Ive seen the spark jump 2" of air gap, or run along the coil snout to the promary ground. Even the primary is 500V. They also spark once as soon as they are enrgized, before cranking. (zapped my bride once that way, and I got clocked upside my head once she regained use of motor functions...)

I think disabling the MSD entirely is the only way to crank the engine if fuel is around.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MBLotus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by george pence:
Dougos Pantera wouldn't run. He had wired the original power wire from the oem ignition to power his new MSD ready to run distributor. The oem ignition circuit is routed through the ignition switch. The MSD igition operates at a much higher current than the oem breaker point ignition. The voltage drop across the ignition switch at that current level was too much, there was not enough voltage to operate the MSD ignition. So we installed a relay to control power to the MSD distributor, controlling the relay with that same power wire from the oem ignition circuit, but now the high current was switched by the relay contacts which were designed for that level of current. It has run fine ever since.

Well, here is the latest findings. I have a spark at the plug, the distributor is fine as I have oil pressure when cranking the engine, the fuel pump pumps and is not leaking, the filter (inline and screen at the carb are clear), and all the electrics work, I can't make the distributor move with my hand so I don't think the timing has changed (besides I would at least get a backfire if it was a little out of time) fuses are fine and I can't see any burnt or hanging wires. So, now I suspect the fuel itself. I had put in some octane booster at the gas station just before taking off on my jaunt Sunday. I'm going to drain the float bowls and siphon as much gas from the tank I can. Get a can of ether and fresh gas and we'll see what happens

MBL,

You're making progress, that's cool. I'm happy to read that.

I'm all for checking the easy stuff first. A squirt of starter fluid in the motor should be enough to get the motor to at least fire momentarily. If so, then pursue the fuel idea. I wouldn't think a can of octane booster would snuff a motor, a tank of fuel filled from a gas station that cuts its fuel with water most certainly would however.

Remember, just because you have spark you have not ruled out the ignition as a source of your trouble until you verify the timing of the distributor, as I described previously. The timing chain may have slipped, especially if your motor still has the oem, "silent chain" installed, the one with nylon teeth on the cam gear. To check this, you'll need to pull the bulkhead cover.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

MBL, I added a can of Dale Ernharst octane booste once, my car started skipping and cutting out. I wanted to blame it on that. I changed wires and then noticed that the little ball in the canter of the cap was gone. I just knew that was the problem. I put the new cap on and it still missed badly. I put in new plugs and gapped them at 60 thousands thats right 60! She has not missed a lick since. 55 would probbly be better, to much gap can give an off idle stumble, What puzzes me it you have everything needed to make it run, fuel compression, spark, timing. You can take the suction line off the pump and stick it down in a bottle of known good gas... BUT before I did all thet I would squirt some down the carb, just so I could hear it fire a couple of cyliders. If you timing has slipped it wil sound different when cranking. I would also think if timing chain problems. You woul not have much compression. pull a plug and put your finger over the hole. When you crank it, it should blow your finger off....off the hole that is lol

MBL, I determined that it was a faulty fuel pump because the fuel bowls were dry. I took the pump off, split the cases (8 screws) and there inside, laying loose, was one of the two check-valves! I pressed the Valve back into its' seat, but I have yet to reassemble it as I have gone to an Electric pump.

Well, now I'm totally baffled. I checked the timing and if I am using the correct marker (pointer) TDC on the balancer and the rotor is pointing at #1. I checked all the wires I could see going from the dash and guages to the engne and all looked normal. So, would I be getting a spark at the plug if the MSD tach adapter failed, or if the tach was faulty?

quote:

Originally posted by MBLotus:
Well, here is the latest findings. I have a spark at the plug , the distributor is fine as I have oil pressure when cranking the engine, the fuel pump pumps and is not leaking, the filter (inline and screen at the carb are clear), and all the electrics work,

quote:

Originally posted by MBLotus:
Well, now I'm totally baffled. I checked the timing and if I am using the correct marker (pointer) TDC on the balancer and the rotor is pointing at #1 . I checked all the wires I could see going from the dash and guages to the engne and all looked normal. So, would I be getting a spark at the plug if the MSD tach adapter failed, or if the tach was faulty?

MB-L, I'm confused. It seems in your first quote you had spark, then in your last quote you confirmed the rotor is pointed at the terminal for cylinder #1. But then your question seems to indicate you no longer have spark. So what's up, perhaps you could fill us in? It is difficult to help, whether in person or via the bulletin board, without complete information. Think of me as Jack Webb "just the facts, ma'am".

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused George. Earlier, I confirmed I had a sprark by using my timing light on cylinder #8, easiest one to get to. Today I looked to see if the timing chain had slipped by manually turning the harmonic dampner to TDC and checking where the rotor was pointed i.e. the terminal for cylinder #1, so the timeing chain has not moved. I have not checked for a spark on cylinder #1. So, I have a spark, gas, and correct timing.
Ah, I see where I caused confusion, the question about the MSD tach adapter, must have had a brain fart, sorry.

MB-L, brain farts are acceptible no apology was necessary. Boy now I'm puzzled, if you have fuel to the carb, properly timed spark, why isn't that dude firing up? Hmmmmmmmmmm

We need to do this step by step. First, Please verify the accelerator pump is squirting fuel, if the accelerator pump is squirting fuel, then its an ignition problem. Actuate the throttle linkage while looking down the carb, do you see fuel squirt out of the accelerator pumps?

Next, please describe your motor to me, what year, stock or modified, if modified, what stuff is bolted on. I should have asked that question right off the bat. There may be something I'm missing.

Please do those 2 things, and then we'll move on.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

MBL, Are you running point distibutor or MSD electronic? And BTW, I have had 3 Tach adapters burn and they never caused a engine miss, but if it was on the same fuse and that blew...you are dead in the water...I want to hear that big spark fire onto the block when it turn over.STIK...STIK...STIK...STIK

One other thing he needs is compression, but I don't see how it could go out on all the cylinders at once that way. If you got spark, gas and compresion, there is fire.

Well, Lastpushbutton, your reply prompted me to retest for a apark on #1 cylinder, and guess what, no spark. I repeated my test on #8 and again no spark. So, either I was hallucinating Friday (it's been known to happen), or I screwed something up during my investigating since Friday. Anyway, I going to take the car to a shop close by that has worked on a couple of Panteras that live in Cambria. In the meantime, I'm going to take the opportunity to do some work on the car it has needed. New stainless steel water pipes, and send my headlight buckets to Kirk Evans at Amerisport to install the headlights I paid for last August. George, have you gotten yours yet? BTW, thanks for all the assistance here, you guys are the greatest. Best part of owning a unique car, are the other misguided souls who own them too.

No head lights yet, Kirk has contacted me, he's working on them.

George

Well, it turned out to be the coil. I ordered an MSD coil from Summit and installed it this afternoon. The engine fired right up. I took the coil off last week to have it tested and that turned out to be confusing as a parts store proclaimed it okay and a local mechanic thought it was marginal. I left it on my workbench on its side and saw it was leaking oil. Thats when I decided to get the MSD. Just wanted to close this thread and again thanks for all the support.