Engine Temp

Have you bled the air from the system ?

Fluidyne Radiator, layed down with Flexlite Sucker fans seems to be the favorite choice for upgrading the cooling system.

Getting ready to do it to mine.

Don't know about A/C, don't have it in mine.

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Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
Well, I went to Golden Gate Park to see the Nor Cal Pantera Club cars parked on the grass but got there late (Not a member yet) Of course there was no parking and traffic was a snails pace. The temp was around 190 for most of the time then started to climb so I headed home. When I got near home I thought I would really test it and turned on the air. The air was not cold first and the temp got to maybe 195 on the guage. When I pulled into the drive the overflow was spitting fluid out. I just had the sweril and overflow tank tops cut off and shorter common necks installed and put american 16psi caps on. I have original push fans (2) I wired both to come on at around 180deg and they both were on. The engine did not seem to be overheating so why is it overflowing? Should I upgrade the entire system rad/water pump/ fans?
I'm also not sure how the heater leavers should be set when you turn the air con dial.

thanks

curt

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Almost by definition you know that your temperature gauge is not accurate. I say that because under the worst of cases, your coolant won't start boiling until 212F. You say that your indicated temp was roughly 195 - this can't be or it wouldn't boil. If your caps are sealing correctly, the boiling point will be raised significantly - 230 or 235 for example. Again, this doesn't jive with your temp gauge reading.

Do you hear boiling along with the spitting? One possibility is that it is not actually overheating, but you have overfilled the system and as it warms up the excess is simply being expelled. If you fill both the swirl and overflow tank completely, for example, then as the coolant heats up it will expand of course and some coolant will overflow.

A suggestion - try to determine if your temp gauge is accurate. Take an oven thermometer, take the top off the swirl tank and place it inside. Start the engine. Let it warm up and see how the temp indicated on the oven thermometer compares to the indicated on the temp gauge.

Don't spend $$ trying to fix your system until a) you are sure it isn't working and b) you have identified what part of it isn't working.

Thanks Charlie,
First, I vacationed in Spain with the family for 17 days and what great place. I could live there with no problem, even with my limited spanish. The coolant did sound like it was boiling but I couls have over filled the system when I replaced the tanks. I had it jacked up in the rear and had it running to let the thermostat open completely then topped off the swirl tank ONLY. I'll first check the guage against the kitchen thermo then go from there. Maybe I might have to go to a higher pressure cap, is 16psi ok? Any response to how my heater leavers should be set when I turn the AC dial to full?

muchas gracias

quote:

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Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
Thanks Charlie,
First, I vacationed in Spain with the family for 17 days and what great place. I could live there with no problem, even with my limited spanish. The coolant did sound like it was boiling but I couls have over filled the system when I replaced the tanks. I had it jacked up in the rear and had it running to let the thermostat open completely then topped off the swirl tank ONLY. I'll first check the guage against the kitchen thermo then go from there. Maybe I might have to go to a higher pressure cap, is 16psi ok? Any response to how my heater leavers should be set when I turn the AC dial to full?

muchas gracias

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Hi again!

Well, I *am* living here no problem :-) It's a nice place with a very good quality of life... I've been here for 5+ years now, and don't plan to leave in the near future, but that doesn't help your problem!

At the moment, I don't think that your problem is due to insufficient pressure provided by your pressure cap. If your gauge says you have 190 degrees and you hear boiling, then a pressure cap won't help you any. Unfortunately, I've heard a boiling Pantera engine, ahem, several times, and it sounds like boiling water, so there isn't much opportunity to mis-diagnose that. If it sounds like burbling, bubbling, and steam and water is puking out, then you are overheating.

A higher pressure cap will postpone the inevitable, but your cooling system is trying to tell you something. It can't cope. First question - do you only notice boiling and overheating when in traffic or also on the road? If your engine overheats while on the highway you will typically smell the sweet smell of hot coolant and see some steam. At this point you have to assume that your temp gauge is suspect until proven otherwise.

If your car does not overheat on the highway but does in traffic, then that indicates insufficient fans, and is the first place to look. If it overheats on the highway as well, then you have a radiator problem, water pump problem, or something like that.

I'll rephrase that and repeat something I've read many time when talking about Panteras - they tend to suffer from overheating in traffic because of inadequate fans. If your car doesn't overheat when moving, then obviously the system can cope when air flows through the radiator. When air is forced through the radiator by the fans because you are standing still, if you overheat it is related to the airflow generated by the fans.

I've got a stock (late-model) radiator in my car, a fairly hot 480 hp engine, and upgraded, brand new fans and have no temperature issues. The stock radiator is perfectly capable, if everything is working properly.

Let us know what you find out...

Thanks Charlie,
I do think that my radiator is good because when driving (actually moving) the temp does seem to be ok. This would point to a decent radiator that is cooling because of the forced air. Then in traffic is when it starts climbing, in which you are correct, the fans are no good. They are original "pusher" fans. There is 1 larger "sucker" fan but I have not located how to turn it on. It does not appear to be activated by a thermostat. It never comes on, even last weekend. My temp sending unit is in the block as it should be, but I noticed on the swirl tank there is a fitting with a small hose on it. It looks like a vaccum hose. Is this some old smog stuff? This weekends plan of attack will be 1. check temp against kitchen thermo. 2. try to get the 1 sucker fan working. 3. trace down that small hose. If I get the larger sucker fan working is it good to have both pucher fans and the sucker fans working all at once. Or would the 1 sucker fan be better for air flow? I have read that sucker fans are better. i.e. do the 2 fans in front pushing air defeat the effeciency of the sucker fan behind the radiator?

thanks again

LQQKR,

On my '74, that fitting on the swirl tank with the hose connected to it goes to the radiator. From the fitting, a rubber hose goes to a metal tube that runs under the car with the vacuum tube and the brake and clutch lines (over the coolant tubes). At the other end of the metal tube is another length of rubber hose connected to a banjo fitting on the upper right corner of the radiator. I guess it's purpose is to purge excess air/steam/pressure from the radiator to improve it's effectiveness.

Let us know if yours is routed like that as well.

Michael

All, Thanks for the input.
I checked the temp with a kitchen thermo and the guage is infact wrong. It shows about 8 degrees cooler than the kitchen thermo (read from the swirl tank) Is this a guage problem or the sending unit? Next I tested the 1 sucker fan to the battery and it works but never comes on, so I tapped into the wires that turn on the 2 (stock) pusher fans and all three come on. Did not have a chance to test it last night because the fog was rolling in so I put her to bed. I hope with the 3rd fan sucking the temp will cool down. Can I ask a dumb question? Is the purpos of the swirl tank so serve as a small radiator that allows the coolant to flow to the over flow to just relieve the entire system? Would a small radiator (like a heator core) with a standard overflow work in the same location? Or put the smalll radiator in the front and forget about the swirl and over flow tanks in the rear. Just a thought.

thanks

LQQKR,

As far as I know, the swirl tank is there so you have a relatively easy access point to fill and monitor your system. You can't have a radiator cap on the radiator in a Pantera because it is not the highest point in the system. As you know, air travels upward, so it gets trapped at the highest point. If you notice, the cap on the swirl tank is over the engine block, making it the highest point in the system.

I rerouted all of the hoses in my '74. To do this, I made a billet aluminum thermostat housing with a filler neck welded onto it. That is now the highest point in the system. From there I ran the hose down and under the car directly to the radiator. I made an aluminum panel for the pass side (just like the gas tank heat shield), and put an overflow catch can behind it with a small hose running to the filler neck. I've had this setup in my '74 for 2-3 years now without any problems. It is a little more of a pain in the *ss to service, but it is infrequent and I don't mind.

I'm telling you this as firsthand knowledge that removing the swirl tank entirely had no effect on the system one way or the other temperature-wise.

Michael

quote:

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Originally posted by 74LQQKR:
All, Thanks for the input.
I checked the temp with a kitchen thermo and the guage is infact wrong. It shows about 8 degrees cooler than the kitchen thermo (read from the swirl tank) Is this a guage problem or the sending unit? -snip-

Would a small radiator (like a heator core) with a standard overflow work in the same location? Or put the smalll radiator in the front and forget about the swirl and over flow tanks in the rear. Just a thought.

thanks

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Hi again!

Actually an 8 degree difference isn't all that bad! But something still doesn't make sense - I don't understand why you hear boiling while the temp is less than the boiling temperature... You originally said it was reading 195 and it spit fluid... even adding the 8 degree difference we are still less than 212... I see a couple of possibilities.

a) On the highway, your temp gauge was reading 195. As you approached your home, and were traveling at city speeds or in traffic, the temp crept up, by the time you got home your engine was overheating and you hadn't noticed that the temp gauge was now reading 220 or more? (if it really was boiling, then something like this would have to have occured as coolant won't boil until 212+)
b) What you saw was not really boiling over, but was in fact excess coolant being heaved overboard as it heated and expanded? If the swirl tank and overflow tank are both filled to the brim, then as it heats up the excess will wind up on the pavement. The overflow tank should be half-full, at most, so that as it heats up it fills up but doesn't overflow, and as it cools down, the swirl tank sucks from the overflow but doesn't suck air.

For what it's worth, it is fairly common for Panteras to overheat in traffic if their fans are marginal or not working correctly. Probably the most common situation is as you describe - fine on the highway but the temp starts to climb as you get stuck in traffic and don't move. This is almost always solved by installing good fans.

To answer your second question, I'm sure that if properly motivated you could install a second radiator in the engine compartment. I've never heard of this being done, and it doesn't sound like a real good idea. First of all, it isn't treating the root of the problem - it is band-aiding over the real reason why your car is running hot, and even if it weren't the engine compartment is a hot area. I'm not sure I'd want to be radiating more heat into that area, or how effective it would be because you'd need to channel cooler air somehow into the radiator. Blowing 150 degree air through the radiator won't shed much heat...

To repeat a little, you've indicated that your cooling system works fine at speed, when you get airflow through your radiator. This means that you need to concentrate on getting airflow while you are not moving - fans. You are on the right track.

Oh, last thing is that Pantera gauges are notoriously inaccurate. The absolute temperature isn't all that important - you should treat them as fancy idiot lights - if you see your temp gauge higher than usual, then you know it is running hot. How hot? Well, hard to tell, but you know it is running hot, which is the important thing. If your oil pressure suddenly shows zero or low, you know that you've got a problem. But the sending units (US-made) and the gauges (Italian made) are not entirely compatible. Therefore you need to take the readings with a grain of salt.

You know your temp gauge reads 8 degrees off... Great, so you just add 8 degrees to whatever you are seeing. Most people (all?) just live with it, unless they like to tinker and have fixed all the other little gremlins.

Good luck!