engine will not start

Pull a plug and see if there's spark

Hi Will,
I already have and no spark.

Steve,
I've never had trouble with mine, but MSD boxes are famous for instantaneous complete failure.
Basically, good one second and gone the next. Take it to a speed shop, they should be able to test it.

Doug M

I you search on MSD web site they have installation instructions there. I recall a section that instructs how to test a box. Should be easy and you don't need to remove the entire box to do it. Could also be the coil in witch chase it would be an easy fix.

If all of your MSD parts are good then your problem may be the roll pin on your distributor. Just a thought.

I've had 3 MSD 6 boxes die in my Mustang.
Unplug it and jump the wires out and see if it fires.
For the Mustangs they had an adapter harness you could unplug and plug the stock stuff back in, fired right up after that for me.

MSD=Might Suddenly Die.......


Good luck....John

quote:

Originally posted by jjenn:
I've had 3 MSD 6 boxes die in my Mustang.


MSD=Might Suddenly Die.......

Lol.....This seems like a common MSD experience. I had two die in different cars within 6 months of each other and they were installed at the same time.

Does anyone know what gives up inside these boxes ??

Hi John.
I may have a spare MSD box if you need to test.
Let me know.
Will

Thanks for the offer Will.
I've gone a different route and no longer use MSD stuff.

The Ford ignition is much more reliable. The MSD continues to be Mysteriously Sucky Devices and will leave you stranded in the middle of nowhere for no apparent reason.

I only went through four MSD units before I saw a connection?

They seem to like low humidity climates like Texas, Arizona, Nevasa, Southern California the best.

They do not like the Norheastern US much at all.

Racers swear good by them but racers tend to change them out a couple of times a year or more which is my experience with them on the street.

Your mileage may vary?

Before we cause everybody to rip out their MSD stuff and pitch it in the dumpster. My mileage varies.
I have a digital 6AL and have run it on the track in Phoenix at well over 100 deg. In Canada at barely above freezing and in a foggy downpour on the Wahington west coast and it hasn't missed a beat in 4 years.

Doug M

Post that as a testimonial on the MSD website. They could use it.

Maybe it's just an era thing? I gave up on them about 1982.

Went to the Ford system.

Updated that a year ago with the Pantera-Electronics Ignition with the Ford pointless distributor.

So far, so good.

I can't think of even one instance where I have heard of the Ford failing on some one. I have heard of the drive pin failing, quite often, but usually associated with a freshly "rebuilt" unit.

It's good to compare notes and experiences.

Personally I look for common denominators and I take personal exception to manufacturers tech support telling me to stick it and buy someone elses products and "why don't you go bother them?"

But that's just me. Admittedly, I can be funny that way and sometimes take things too personally?

I don't understand why all you guys are having trouble with MSD ignitions. I have MSD distributors and 6AL in 4 of my fords. I have never has a problem. I wonder if by using both the distributor and the box both MSD mine are more reliable.

Some guys get lucky is the only answer. NASCAR uses MSD regularly and weight-conscious crew chiefs normally install TWO of everything, with a selector switch, so a driver can finish the event when (not IF) the first box, distributor or coil fails. And race-MSD stuff is 10X the cost of the over-the-counter prices at Summit or Jegs. Count your blessings.

I'll admit that I have had MSD failures - fewer than with Mallory; yet, still use the product. I think one reason so many units fail is that they are wired by well intentioned home mechanics who know little about electrical wiring. OTOH, Assembly line cars have had the wiring designed and laid out by engineers and installed by professionals.

While MSD does provide instructions, I have witnessed some horrific wiring of these units. I thought this type of ham handed electrical wiring was limited to cars. However, I attended a member's aircraft fly-in event. He lives in one of those neighborhoods with a home adjacent to the runway. Way cool. To my amazement, there was plenty of bubba wiring in a couple of the planes that I saw. Wirenuts were employed for gods sake. I couldn't believe it. I guess if that is what you know.

When I had mine fail I was using the wire harness I purchased from MSD for late model (at that time)Mustangs.
It was a plug and play set up.
They still failed.

Remember when Mallory put a bounty on the dead MSD equipment?
Buy a Mallory unit and send in a dead MSD part for cash back....
Kinda funny to me as I switched to Mallory long before that was offered.

I also see that Roush Yates has teamed up with Mallory in 2011 as well, so maybe those guys are fed up with MSD's failing.

I'm not a fan of a product that leaves me stranded in an intersection in traffic...

Just sayin.....John

I know that many car enthusiasts are completely out of their depth when it comes to electrical work and i have seen wiring in cars that a 10 year old would be ashamed of.

Some years back i made a electronic conversion for Chev engines to fit in the early model small distributors.

I gave the whole thing away because of the number of cretins that would not follow the instructions of how to wire the system up.

I had "customers" that even decided the earth wire on the ecu was not necessary and removed it even before installing the system. Consequently it did not work and they blamed me for it. Doh !

So i can see where MSD are coming from when they give explicit instructions on how to wire up their boxes.

I wired the MSD boxes up to the letter of the instructions and as others have found the boxes can still mysteriously fail without any warning.

When they work they seem to work well and i like them but the possibility of instant failure usually at the most inconvenient time puts me off them.

I'm still looking for someone that actually knows what the fault is that makes them fail.....

My car has a full Mallory setup, no failure yet, I hope it lasts LOL

I also have the MSD Tach adapter which flat out did not work ON MY CAR. This was the source of the problem with the MSD Tech people.

The Pantera is actually listed as being applicable. It didn't work.

Mallory, MSD, Allison all have fans BUT you can get replacement parts THAT ARE IN STOCK, if even generically for the Ford system virtually at any auto parts stores in North America.

I don't think you can say that about the other brands. Something to think about when you are out on a little spin in say "God's Country" and maybe can hear the howl of the wolves at Yellowstone? AHWOOOOOO! Just howl back, maybe they won't like the flavor of your meat?

Oh, and to my Canadian friends, they are "Canadian Timber wolves" that the US Interior Department imported and stocked into Yellowstone. You can tell by their accent hey?.

A Pantera that will not start can't possibly outrun a bear?

@AusFord:

"I'm still looking for someone that actually knows what the fault is that makes them fail....."

If THEY know, they aren't saying. They are made with too much crapolla off shore. The Tech guy reminds me of Senator Cruise of Texas, nothing but attitude?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I also have the MSD Tach adapter which flat out did not work ON MY CAR. This was the source of the problem with the MSD Tech people.

The Pantera is actually listed as being applicable. It didn't work."

PanteraDoug,

I recently installed an MSD box and tach adapter mostly due to the encouragement of my engine builder who swears by (or is that swears at?) them. I have had no issues whatsoever with the box (which I installed behind the drivers seat) but the tach adapter didn't work. I tried everything, then finally contacted MSD by phone. When I explained what car I was working on, they said "OH! You can't use the wiring instructions supplied with the tach adapter on a Pantera. You have to disregard the instructions completely and hook it up this way". Once I hooked it up "this way" it worked (and still works) pefectly.

The Tech guy I spoke to was never that explicit. I understand this company has been sold already three times.

I got the guy that was part of the work release program. Maybe the new owners discontinued it?

I am still having problems with the car not starting. No spark. Bought a brand new 6al box (6425), wired correctly, good grounds, blaster 3 coil, was told the ignition switch could be the problem so I cleaned it and tested it, tach adaptor (8920), and still no go.

It had a relay installed from the ignition circuit so I bought another one, tried it and no difference, then by-passed the relay, still no difference.

When I installed the new box it fired right up and I drove it for about 2 hours, parked it, and then the same problem - it will not fire up........

The LED on the new box blinks 5 times when power is supplied (I am told it is nothing to worry about as it is the rev limiter). The LED does not stay on with the power supplied to the unit.
Has me baffled.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Steve

You need to determine if when you have the ignition switch in the "run" or "on", there is power to the ignition box.

If you are saying that there is not, it is highly likely that the electronic portion of the keyed ignition switch is defective.

There are three on terminals in the switch. Accessory, run, and start.

The run terminal seems to go faster than the other two.

I just replaced an ignition switch with this problem.

The accessories would come on, the car would turn over and fire in the start position, but would stall right out in the run position.

In that case the culpret was the ignition switch.

I don't know if the Pantera switch can be repaired. I never tried that.

I even tried bypassing the switch and wired direct to the new MSD box (small red wire - the switched one) and still no result. (If it did fire, I realise that the wire would have to be disconnected to shut the engine off). I still get 5 flashes on the LED when I hook up the wire direct, so I know there is power going in as if it is switched.
Could it be a defective dist. cap?, dist. pick-up?

quote:

Originally posted by 72panterasteve:
I even tried bypassing the switch and wired direct to the new MSD box (small red wire - the switched one) and still no result. (If it did fire, I realise that the wire would have to be disconnected to shut the engine off). I still get 5 flashes on the LED when I hook up the wire direct, so I know there is power going in as if it is switched.
Could it be a defective dist. cap?, dist. pick-up?

You don't want to get me started on the lack of dependability of MSD components again do you?

I don't imagine this stuff. Sounds typical to me.

Wanna' survey and see how many crash right out of the box?

Call MSD Tech support. Maybe they'll send out a field tech?

Steve, do you have any other wires, except the two from the MSD box going to the coil that supply 12V. If so, remove them. That will compromise the system.

Only the two wires from the MSD box going to the coil, JT.

There's a lot to be said for using a Ford Duraspark 2 ignition in Panteras....especially with an e-coil in place of any can-of-oil coil. Ford sold millions of them, they're available anywhere cheap (the 429/460 unit is a drop-in to a 351-C) and Ford actually tests them before sale. With MSD and others, YOU are their quality control dept. Somewhere I read that MSD and others use Duraspark innards in their 'racing' distributors but with better bearings & billet housings.

Steve,
With all the fresh parts and wires you've tried, I would look at anything your have NOT changed yet. The distributor pick up is a good suspect, especially if you have vacuum advance. The pick up wires flex as the vacuum advance moves it. The copper wire can work harden and crack, while the insulation looks OK. I had a duraspark fail that way, and it was a bear to find. In fact, that is the only failure I've ever had on a duraspark.

Bosswrench, I don't get it. I agree with you about the Duraspark. I have never heard of anyone carrying a spare. Why fight the MSD issues! You can probably get Duraspark at a dozen stores within a 10 mile radius in most cities if needed.

I had a similar issue w/my car. I ASSumed it was the MSD so I replaced it, it was not the problem. It was my ignition switch, "sweet Ol' Bill" fixed mine and I never put it back in. I just ended up using a switch panel and push button.

quote:

Originally posted by PLT-1:
I had a similar issue w/my car. I ASSumed it was the MSD so I replaced it, it was not the problem. It was my ignition switch, "sweet Ol' Bill" fixed mine and I never put it back in. I just ended up using a switch panel and push button.

Yes it definitely could be the original ignition switch is the culpret.

The original electrical grease is now 40 something years old and dries up like glue keeping any springing action of the internal switch contacts for functioning properly.

You can buy new ones but they aren't cheap.

If you rebuild yours you need to clean out the old grease and lubricate them with longevity in mind.

For one thing for you guys up there in the depth of the Canadian arctic winter, the grease needs to resist those 20 or 30 below winter nights?

I was perplexed at the time and George called it for me and SOB fixed it. It was as you said Doug a crusty,dry broken mess. The fact that SOB was able to fix it, places him very securely in the Jedi Master status. I just kept the switch panel because it helps me with my F-16 fantasy....

Glad it worked out for you. In a sense it's good for the entire community.
We all just learned to send our ignition switches to SOB.
He'll be so grateful now.

Still doesn't work out for me. As I stated before, I have removed and cleaned/inspected the switch and it is fine. I hope that I have now narrowed the problem down to the new MSD wiring harness where it plugs into the new MSD box. If I wiggle the harness at the box while under the car (it is mounted on the firewall) then I get a spark out of the box. I still have to remove the new box from the car for a better look but that will have to wait for the weekend.

Steve

You might want to consider going to the Pantera-Electronics brain. It is designed for easy replacement of the MSD unit.

There is nothing wrong with the Motorcraft brain at all. In fact there is a lot right.

The P-E unit does offer features beyond the stock Ford unit though.

I also clipped a harness off of the Ford unit to splice in to the P-E so that the Motorsport distributor would plug into the harness as if it was the Ford unit to.

I suppose that means if the P-E unit craps out, all I need to do is plug a Motorcraft back in?



The P-E is a plug and play even with the MSD distributor. It certainly will like the e-coil. Doesn't really matter the brand. The hotter the spark it throws, the better.



You might be experiencing the RPM limiter chip in your 6a shorting out and cutting off the spark?

I went through that too. It would fire sporadically with the power timing light but wouldn't start the car.

In that condition, the unit test that MSD gives you did show that the unit was good. How can it be good if it doesn't start the car?



To me, this business of how to test, and it showing good, and the installation instructions of installing the tach adapter that are wrong and not working on the Pantera, just emphasizes to me, why exactly I want no part of that company AT ALL.

The Pantera is not a car that you ever want to have to worry about the ignition on. Should you need to pull the distributor, you have to take seemingly half the car apart.

Keep your fingers crossed you don't drop the oil pump drive shaft into the pan too. Otherwise you are going to have to pull the drive line out to get it.

Dependability is what you want on ignition. Not an ignition that at best is a 50/50 deal depending on what day and time it is.

Trash the MSD. Better yet, send it back to them. Attach a note saying "thanks a lot, here's another one".

I went with this distributor. Ford Motorsport A341, for racing with reinforced roll pins.

Steve, just curious, did you ever get this sorted out?

Doug M

Hi Doug,
How goes it? Yes I did sort it out. It was the new MSD plug in harness where it plugs into the new box. Poor connection. Fires right up now.
Steve
(ps: Peter is talking about a cruise up through Whistler this summer. Herman and I have already commited.......)

If it's even remotely possible for me, I'm in for sure !

Doug M