Erica needs to get hosed.....

quote:

Originally posted by Mangusta:
SO, all of this mess got me thinking.....Hate when I do this....

1) I wish I had flushed the tubes out while I had the connections under the dash open. I had tried to blow water thru previously...but heater valve was still stuck in place...probably closed.... AND, I'm fuzzy on what I did exactly but the results were NOT what I expected....

2) I wish I had flushed out the heater core while it was disconnected.....

3) Is there good way to roto-rooter the tubes under the car..... Seems like there is large pulley in the way and a harmonic balancer that would hinder this from being easy....! What is....

4) NOW, I believe that A) the engine is full of crap, and likely the radiator is also!!!!

IN light of #4, I can see justification for putting one of those see thru inline filters that guys have put in the larger 1-3/8" hose that feeds the radiator (thermostat outlet pipe?) to keep crap from the radiator! I think that pipe goes over to the pressure tank first...then to the radiator...

AND......I would love to know if the same company makes a similar device for 5/8" hoses??????????

If anyone knows, please chime in here!

OK, and a picture of heater valve marked to show full open and full closed for my reference when upside down working on this crazy....

More to follow...

S

If you have access to a lift or otherwise enjoy working under you car on jack stands, I used this gizmo to backflush the cooling system and heater core. To powerflush the engine, remove the thermostat first. You should chemically flush the system first after draining the old coolant.

WOW! I can see cleaning out block passages with something like this tool! Looks like perfect size to put in a freeze plug hole and "blast" away at the cavity......where all the garp settles in the block!

Ciao!
Steve

Last few days have been spent pulling metal tubes and sorta cleaning some stuff up....messing other stuff up....(tried to put in new rear deck shocks....and decklid hinge mount took a dump on me....already been fixed once.....lost some paint....)

But, some good too!

Had the radiator checked for leaks and the metal surrounds re-attached. Unit is a Hall "45 degree" unit. It also had unique front stainless tubes installed so that you need NO rubber 90's!!!

I suspected there were some tubes leaking but the core that I could see via the inlet/outlet ports looked good, very few big chunks of garp!

But, radiator guy sez that the tubes were good, but he increased my flow by about 30% by cleaning out the tubes!!! Apparently there wasn't large stuff...but there was small stuff circulating about...!!!

When I pulled the temp sensor switches off of the unit, one of the fiber gaskets tore....so spent some time cruising the internet today to find some 2mm thick copper versions. Had to buy 25 from Grainger....but was still cheaper than buying 3 off of eBay! IN case anyone needs a couple....!!!

Also ordered a 5/8" in-line filter from Northern Supply to try out. Not sure how it will do....more on that later....

Picked up 10' of 5/8" heater hose from the local AP store

Ordered a 3' length of Gates Green Stripe in 1-3/8" ID off of eBay to make tube connectors.

Found a few more nice metric hose clamps in the stuff from the previous owner AND, some 1-1/2" super duper hose for the connection from the under car tube to the water pump inlet.

More.....

Cleaned a lot of loose refuse from the top of the engine near the water pipe/t-stat housing.

Also removed the block drain plugs from either side of the block and actually got some clean water out of them! ...and some not so clean....

Will flush more of this out tomorrow or Friday.

What my BIG job was.....was to make up my mind on the block heater hose connection.....it was crappy at best.....

Soooo, I pulled the pulleys off the water pump and crank....and then pulled the water pump off.....

Got a new aluminum one from Rock Auto.com for a closeout price, along with a few other parts that were being closed out! T-stat housing gaskets, exhaust gaskets, timing cover gasket sets, water pump gaskets, full gasket set, oil pan gaskets, and a few other pieces that could come in handy along the way! Belts.....

Cleaned the garp up a bit more so that I could decide.....if I wanted to tackle this.....

So I removed the T-stat pipe while I thought about it some more.....

Then tested the brass thingy as an insert for a vice grips to hold against so that tube doesn't collapse while trying to remove it.....

Hosed area down with PB Blaster to influence some of the rusty bond....while I procrastinated longer.....

Did I mention that the thermostat in this was the wrong unit!!! Not only was it not a 351C unit but it was also a 160 degree unit.

Woulda thought that prev owner had gotten this correct......lots of notes about replacing t-stats..... Someone led him off road...!

soooooo......can't piss around much longer....either put the danged hose on the crummy connector...and don't look back, or try and pull the old one out....either ya win or ya lose and potentially need to pull the engine out....

SO, out come the vice grips......munching and crunching....and tore the top off!!!

OK, short story is that I won.....without needing to pull the engine out! It was not easy.....pardon me for not taking any pictures of the process.....

......but after chiselling with various chisels, and punches....getting the grinder out to be able to sharpen a punch to a pin prick....and more hammering and sucking left over water out with the shop vac...and THEN punching the remains into the water jacket...ooooohhh nooooo! Wasn't into taking pictures......

.....so time passed, I used my magnet on a stick to try and find the missing piece of the insert..... Finally after shining my flashlite in the hole....I determined that the cavity beneath the t-stat was part of this passageway!

Got a trusty piece of clothes hanger out and manged to locate the little piece of tin....and pushed it back into the hole area......and chiselled on it some more....trying to collapse it and either cut it in half or bend it in half.....

Finally, a thought hit me..... why don't I try to drag it into the area below the t-stat where the cavity gets bigger! Good idea!!! Was able to then retrieve it with the MOS (magnet on stick)!!!

Cleaned up the hole in the cast iron where chisels left marks and dragged the MOS around a bit to clean out more metal stuff....

Slathered the new metal insert (C5AZ-8555-A 5/8" by 2.5" long cut to length) with a little blue silicone and started digging for a big hammer.... Got the tube started carefully and then started wanging away! Stopped to put in my brass insert deal and continued to wail away......as much as you can in 5-6" of space!!!

Remember...window is just above you....!!!

I had a mark on the tube and it went in nice and smooth, actually fairly easily all considered....pushed it in about another 1/8" and decided to leave it there!!!

Taa daa!!!

Nice Work!

Sounds like fun.

PS> I believe there is typically a little P-Clamp that holds the dipstick against the block. It goes into the threaded hole in the head to the left of your new tube.

At least mine has one.

It is the thing that makes your valve covers much more difficult to remove with the engine in the car.

Rocky

Glad that went well!!!! I managed not to break anything else.....!

Tomorrow or Friday will clean up the timing cover plate a bit, degrease the water pump and harmonic balancer pulleys and bolts etc and anything else while I have the parts washer open.....

While I had some time....procrastinating about busting off this fitting......I tried something that I had noticed on Thomas T's post somewhere else on this forum.

He posted a pic of his EFI engine and I noticed that his GT5 engine used the stock Ford alternator bracket and adjuster to retain the alternator!

Since I had all of this apart... AND because I had a spare set of factory brackets on a spare engine......I decided to check it out!

So, in the pic below, you will see Ford factory 1970 bracket, spacer, bolt, 1973 adjuster arm (from the Pantera!) and the "normal belt" 10AV1040 size. The alternator is WAY out on the adjuster....so a stock belt (for a Mustang) is probably like an 10/11AV1030 or 1020 and would bring the alternator closer to the center of the opening.

I tried my cover and it seemed to fit without any clunking...... or scraping. I wasn't out to prove anything....just show that it would appear that normal Ford parts could be used in the case if you didn't want to use the DeTomaso crazy bracket to mount your alternator.

Now, this alternator is a late model R3(?) version with the built in regulator. As fitted, the wiring would not be able to plug into this as the opening faces the timing chain area of the block! BUTTTT, I think that if I were to re-clock the rear of the alternator about 120 degrees, life would be grand!!! And there isn't any reason that rotating the rear of this alternator shouldn't be possible from what I can tell! For all I know....someone already did that to make it work in this car/config....!

Anyway.....I think it looks like a potentially good fit!!!

Another fuzzy shot of the "stock" Mustang alternator mount position!

I think with the much shorter belt, that it would bring the pulley in towards the center about 1-2 inches!

Distance to center of alt shaft to frame rail (not edge of opening was aprox 12-3/16" and about 3-3/8" from LH edge of opening.

Just a reminder of what I found when I opened up "my first hatch"!!!

S

One more pic of three things......that were buggers!

1) Bottom left corner..... SQUARE headed block plug! From my experience, these NEVER come lose with a) open end wrench, b) closed box wrench, or c) 12 point sockets...... they all round off the corners! Today was NO different!

So, do I have a set of the sockets for the square headed fastners???? Why yes I do! Is it in your tool box? Why no it isn't! Please tell, where is it? In my other tool box down at my other shop some 53 miles south!

(I have never had one of these sockets in my regular box.....somewhere I bought one of those 69 piece socket sets with a mixture of SAE, metric, 6 point, 12 point...3/8, 1/4, 1/2" sizes....BUT it has 4 or 5 square nut sockets!!! .....and they sit there in my other roll around....so many miles away..... so OF COURSE, NOW is when I need one.)

But wait! My son's tool box is sitting off to the side of the garage.... He's getting ready to move out.....again......soon.....at least I hope soon.....I digress..... and I know that he got all sorts of sockets in the deal!!! So sure enuf, still in the plastic bags....I find the square drive sockets!!! SWWWWWEEEETTT!

Nice and easy does it.....and I was able to get both of the block drain plugs out of the block! And they can even be reused!!!!

Ok..
2) The fragment of the old heater hose connection that got pushed down into the block. That was not fun.....

3) The 160 degree t-stat that is NOT the proper T-stat for a Cleveland!!! It's going to get a proper one and a 190 temp! No messing around here!!!

Out for now!
Ciao!
Steve

Rocky,

THANKS!!! That is good to know! The clamp thing is one of the many details that get slaughtered when you buy a car that has been driven and worked on by many mechanics!

The stock dipstick tubes in Mustangs etc also use that little clamp thing and the same hole! I think the alternator pivot bolt holds it in place as well! The clamp was normally spot welded in place.....not sure about Pantera version!

I'm still looking to see if this car got a set of closed chamber heads or not. One of the heads has a threaded insert in a rear hole that is not used on the front or rear of our cars....but may have been used on a regular car! So no matter how you mount that head on a Pantera, no reason to have put a thread insert in place!!???? Was this head on a "normal car" at one point in it's life?????

Fun stuff to try and figure out!

Next time I find a clamp in a junk yard that is loose from the dipstick, I may re-purpose it!!!

Cheers!
Steve

Alrighty! Been cleaning and digging and looking for stuff......

Ordered a new set of stainless pipes to replace the "reasonable condition" steel pipes that I removed from everywhere. The large pipes were all in great condition except for a couple of spots near the hose clamp retainer bumps where there was some rust thru.....

I've been able to experiment with most of the pipes and can post this next few posts with pic's of issues.

I have not established exact lengths for the rubber "unions" which will join all the steel sections together.....will update....

This is the sort of project where you put EVERYTHING in the car loose....then adjust...then tighten hose clamps!!!!

Keep in mind that this is a 74 car, and that the 71's (at least) have some differences like the heater hoses running up on the top of the shifter hump...and the AC hoses are in the rocker panel..... On the 74, the AC lines are on top of the shifter hump and heater lines run up the inside of the shifter hump!

Good:

My car came with a Hall 45 degree radiator and two stainless attaching tubes.
Sent radiator out to be checked, and have the outer tin shields soldered back on....a couple of the seams had popped loose on the tin. Came back with a good report....was perhaps 30% plugged but no reports of leaks and a roto-rooter job on the tubes was all good. Shop straightened out the tins and soldered them gooder than new!

So, since the two front tubes were on the car...they "should" go back on..... Murphy's law may dictate otherwise!

Long under car pipe replacements are most straight forward. You will need a cut off wheel or an air saw to cut the one remaining long tube so that you can get it out!

Note that the long tube is about 1" or so longer than the two piece tubes, but once union is installed comes out about the same. The new tubes equal the length of the original two pieces of tube.

I removed all of the rubber tube insulators since I purchased new ones..... Only perhaps 2 of the 8 were really funky....rest were good...

I found it best to put the long tube in the front section and the shorter ones in the rear.
This will put the "union" in the rear section.

Doing it with the union in the front was going to be difficult when using GreenStrip hose as the tubes get VERY close to the floor pan and might even rub. There was also one of those clamps for the brake line and a coolant bleed line right in the area also......looking to mess stuff up.... SOOO, I chose to put the long sections up front.

If you have a spray bottle of dish soap and water handy, it will make installation of the new hoses into the new rubber insulators! Hose them down and spray some more when things do not move.

I determined that 1" of hose PAST the hose clamp retainer bump is minimum to put a clamp on properly. SO, I marked all of the tubes with a 1" mark, a 1.5" mark, and a 2" mark to use as references when putting this all back together!

At the engine end, I stuck the tubes out just far enough to use the 1" mark that I made. It's tight up there.....so this can be adjusted longer as needed but no less than the 1" mark plus a 1/4" or so.

Lower pressure tank pipe: There is no longer a support welded onto the new pipe. I made one up out of some metal I had hanging around and fashioned an inverted "L", drilled and filed an oblong hole in it, and twisted it to have the proper angle so that I could retain it with a hose clamp to the tube...

This pipe also fit fairly well both on the tank end and the under car tube end. Now, I was supposed to get a metal 90 piece to make the bend at the UCT (under car tube), but it is on back order, so used a rubber 90 for now. I think trying to get the 90 and two short pieces of GreenStripe in there is going to be a mouthful!!!!! But the rubber 90 fit well.

Less Good
Pump to UCT This new piece is a bugger to fit properly. The tube is short on both ends about 3/8" from the original. While not measuring shorter in the straight section, it seems like it is too short. I either need to bend the hose connector at the pump (1-3/4" hose isn't gonna give much!) or at the UCT.... Will post some pics of the mismatch.

One kind soul told me that he stretched this tube about 1-1/4" and it fit better. Sounds like a plan....!

Thermostat Pipe This is a nice looking piece....but stops there. The original pipe bends around the front of the engine at about an 88 degree angle and runs parallel to the valve cover to the pressure tank top fitting.

The new one is bent with more of a 90 degree angle and therefore when mounted up, it is off about 3/4" pointing to the wheel well...and it also angles up about 3/4". Off on two planes....

If I had a tubing bender handy, I'd have both of those issues corrected with one bend... I still may cut it and correct it......as the tube to the lower tank connection is fine and I don't want to start stressing the tank welds or the t-stat area welds by putting pressure on the tubes by bending the hoses to fit.

PLUS, I wanted to put an inline filter in that top rubber union as it is the longest piece of rubber in the works....but I would like to NOT stress the plastic filter by trying to get short pieces of rubber hose to fit.

Call me picky. Yes I am. I got that by being raised by a tool and die machinist who cuts metal down to .000x dimensions....and an electronics training regimen that counts signals in 10 to the -9 decimal places.....

And since I'm on my soap wrapper....if I am buying new parts....I expect them to fit. But this isn't Lincoln Mercury any more....!

I want to drive this car further than the Cars n Coffee events on Saturday/Sunday mornings....and I already spent enuf time on the side of the road with my Goose fixing "inherited issues" that I don't want to induce any new issues with the Pantera by putting parts in "because I paid good money for them!"

I'll put old parts back in where they merit it!

OK, here's my one attachment allotment for this email! Misalignment of top t-stat tubing. I have another shot showing the vertical issue, but not going to post it....be assured it exists!

Don't touch that dial!
Steve

LOWER TANK TUBE, fits pretty nicely.
Tank end.

This is picture of where the new pump inlet tube needs to fit....you have a shifter shaft, a huge vacuum line for your PDB's(!), the oil pan, and the frame to work around here!

Original tube in position. Top at pump.

Original tube- bottom connection as it lines up. Without hitting any of the fore mentioned components! At the bottom of the pic is my beautiful heater hose connection....really that is beautiful compared to the others.....! Sarcasm alert!!!

This is about the best fit I got for the new pipe...but It seems that I am either up against the vacuum hose or the oil pan......not ultimate of good...