FI Fuel supply

Using the bottom drain plug is just too low. There are only a couple of fittings that will fit the drain and they will hang down in harms way.

I think the way to do it IS to change the fuel pickup/sender unit to the current service combination one. You can get those from Wilkinson.

Then you can use the existing supply with the banjo fitting as the return line.

On the steel tanks, the pickup tubes are welded to the inside of the tanks and will eventually have a rust spot hole through.

That tube is not serviceable and you would need to go to the newer pickup anyway to fix the situation.

Some will say to put the fuel pump inside the tank, adapting a current in the tank pump BUT I think it is better to have it externally so the components are easily serviceable?

Then there are lots of electric fuel pumps you can select from.

As far as what to pick for an 8 stack, I like the "classic 8 stack" which is the one that looks like the Weber 48IDA's.

It hides all of the fuel rails and wiring so it looks just like Webers but there are other 8 stack systems available.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/e...ssic-fuel-injection/

That company though keeps getting resold and at the moment I don't even know where you can get them OR EVEN WHAT THEY ARE CALLING THEMSELVES RIGHT NOW?

http://www.coroflot.com/thomas...assic-fuel-injection

It will fit on one of the Hall Pantera Weber manifolds (4v vs. A3 port) which is a improved copy of the original Detomaso manifold which has problems with engineering details like the mounting flanges for the carbs being too thin.

Once you have the hardware, then all you need is a CPU and lots of people like the current FAST system.

The reality on tuning them is that apparently most are using them as a plug and play and running on the "as delivered" program successfully. So you could drive the car right away essentially without having to bring it to a tuner which you could do eventually.

The main drawback to all of this is the expense.

If you've got the bucks, go for it.

$1,000 for the manifold. $3,000 for the 8 stack. $2,500 for the cpu. Assorted hard ware, $350 for the pickup, wiring harness...unknown, fuel pump...pick one, fuel plumbing...start counting the fittings.

So maybe around $8,000?


I suppose a testament to how they all work is the lack of any being sold used? I can't think of even one that has come up for sale used within the last few YEARS! I've seen probably dozens of the systems running. The owners I have been able to speak to absolutely love them.


I'd be interested in a set if I could find them?

quote:

posted Oct 28, 2015 5:18 AM
Using the bottom drain plug is just too low. There are only a couple of fittings that will fit the drain and they will hang down in harms way.

2511 had a bottom feed fuel system on the stock steel tank when purchased by me over 50,000 miles ago. I have never had any issue with that bottom fitting. It does not become the lowest part of the chassis, sits just behind a substantial chassis brace and would only be subject to damage from some very random road debris or if one was playing 4X4 bouncing over a rough country road with an object that somehow cleared the chassis and managed to come straight up into the bottom of the tank.

I have talked with other owners with bottom feed fuel systems and they likewise have never had any problems.

I have personally never found anyone with a bad experience with a bottom feed tank fitting. I realize that in theory this could be a problem but in actual practice it appears to be a unfounded Pantera myth.

Larry

Question for LF-TP2511.

Banjo fitting or a close type ell at the tank drain fitting? What size? (AN-8 or larger)
I have worried about restrictions causing cavitation at the high pressure pump and fuel slosh when low on fuel. The shape of the Pantera tank does concentrate fuel near the low point.
Thinking about making the leap. (pro-m system)

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

posted Oct 28, 2015 5:18 AM
Using the bottom drain plug is just too low. There are only a couple of fittings that will fit the drain and they will hang down in harms way.

2511 had a bottom feed fuel system on the stock steel tank when purchased by me over 50,000 miles ago. I have never had any issue with that bottom fitting. It does not become the lowest part of the chassis, sits just behind a substantial chassis brace and would only be subject to damage from some very random road debris or if one was playing 4X4 bouncing over a rough country road with an object that somehow cleared the chassis and managed to come straight up into the bottom of the tank.

I have talked with other owners with bottom feed fuel systems and they likewise have never had any problems.

I have personally never found anyone with a bad experience with a bottom feed tank fitting. I realize that in theory this could be a problem but in actual practice it appears to be a unfounded Pantera myth.

Larry

Hey, listen, if you want to run around the jungle with an elephant dick hanging out fine.

This is the fitting. It's 18mm x something thread to a -8 hose.

Just threading the thing in stresses out the 20 gauge steel of the tank and the weld of the bung.

Once you get it in there, the entire tank is subject to being yanked around by anything it catches on.

You can do what you want but personally I wear a supporter and a cup. I also recommend that to all of my catchers and goalies. All personal preference I suppose?

I think the answer is obvious, not that "I've been smoking for years when I pump gas and nothin' ever happened yet?"

Whatever Dude.

I agree with Larry. My fitting is pretty much tucked away behind the chassis brace. For added protection a steel plate can be easily installed beneath it (and still not be the lowest point on the chassis).

quote:

Originally posted by Husker:
I agree with Larry. My fitting is pretty much tucked away behind the chassis brace. For added protection a steel plate can be easily installed beneath it (and still not be the lowest point on the chassis).

Good. You can all vote me off of the island. That's ok. You guys are dangerous.

The appropriate fitting to use is a 22mm x 1.5 banjo. It has a -10AN output. It fits very closely to the bottom of the tank and is pretty tough, as you'd expect something that size to be. The only source I know of is BAT, Inc. in Sarasota, FL (941-355-0005) and they have the appropriate crush washers as well. If you're drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank, you'd use your OEM pickup tube as the return line. If you prefer an external fuel pump, it's pretty hard to beat the tried and true Bosch "O44" pump. It's cheap, quiet and very reliable. Drawing fuel from the bottom of the tank is by no means the most desirable way to do it but it's inexpensive, simple and effective. If you're really concerned about road debris hitting part of the fuel system, you could always do what I did and have a simple skid plate "fabbed", to protect the bottom of the fuel tank, fittings and lines.

Some day, when my engine's out and I'm feeling ambitious, I'll probably have a new fuel tank made, with an in-tank pump and all fittings on top, but for now, what I have works perfectly.

What can I say, Doug?

Like "they" say, if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space. Right?

I also tempt Fate every day now since the good doctor has convinced me I do not really need the protective tin foil hat.

I understand your concern, but as mentioned, I have never heard of an actual

PANTERA BURNED TO THE GROUND IN FREAK BOTTOM-FEED FUEL FITTING ACCIDENT.

However, please feel free to continue wearing your hat.

Larry

quote:

Using the bottom drain plug is just too low. There are only a couple of fittings that will fit the drain and they will hang down in harms way.

WRONG! The fittings are well out of the way. The chassis frame rails are the lowest point on the car at that area. And if you've hit something that can reach up and shear off the fuel fitting from the bottom of the tank, it's already taken out much more of the underside of your car, so the fuel fitting will be the least of your concerns.

quote:

Banjo fitting or a close type ell at the tank drain fitting? What size? (AN-8 or larger)

Do NOT use a banjo fitting if you have a modified engine. Banjo fittings substantially restrict fuel flow.

I re-plumbed my fuel line from the bottom of my tank and installed a Groco stainless marine 90-degree fuel petcock so I can shut off fuel flow in the event I need to service the fuel pump or a fuel line. This has proven to be a VERY handy feature when changing the fuel pump and subsequently pulling the engine again. No clamping the fuel line with vice grips or some other kludge! It's also a nice added security feature. The car won't get far when the fuel supply is shut off!


http://www.groco.net/seacocks.htm

The 1/2" male threads allow it to thread directly into the metric plug bung in the bottom of the tank. Initially it didn't seal completely - it had a drip. Then I reinstalled it with commercial grade fuel-safe pipe dope (thread compound?) and an O-ring from my local O'Reilly Auto Parts store (one of those generic "Help!" packages that contained various sizes). It hasn't leaked a drop in a couple years now!

This valve is 1/2" throughout, so no tight banjo fitting to restrict fuel flow to my 383C stroker engine. Also, it fits snug up against the tank so no part of the fuel system hangs below the frame rail, therefore nothing to get knocked off if you hit a speed bump or have an off-road adventure.

I'll take a picture tonight.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
What can I say, Doug?

Like "they" say, if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space. Right?

I also tempt Fate every day now since the good doctor has convinced me I do not really need the protective tin foil hat.

I understand your concern, but as mentioned, I have never heard of an actual

PANTERA BURNED TO THE GROUND IN FREAK BOTTOM-FEED FUEL FITTING ACCIDENT.

However, please feel free to continue wearing your hat.

Larry

Sound advice. Good research.

To use a banjo fitting on the bottom of the fuel tank, you need the following:

22mm x 1.5 banjo bolt
22mm x -10AN banjo fitting (22mm x -8AN would be fine but I've never been able to find one that I could actually buy).
2 x 22mm crush washers

Re: Garth's comments regarding banjo fittings being restrictive to flow - I also had concerns in this regard since I have a Fontana based 427 cu in, fuel injected motor. The fitting in question is pretty huge (22mm x -10AN), so I decided to try it in the interest of keeping the plumbing as tight to the bottom of the fuel tank as possible. Also, the fitting supplier assured me it would be fine. They were correct as it works fine and does not impose any apparent restriction. By the way, the common application for this fitting is Porsche 911 dry sump.

Fuel starvation can become a problem with the OE set up. I originally fashioned a ½” (-8) dipstick style replacement that installed in the OE location. If you run the dip stick version like this out of gas, they won’t always self prime on an electric fuel pump. The conventional diaphragm mechanical pumps do ok in this regard though.



I’m currently just bottom tapped. I also put an Earl’s shut off valve on there and secured it to the gas tank support. It’s well above the bottom of the frame rail. The line runs over to a Mallory cartridge filter canister and pump. This pump is just the carbureted version but could just as well be the FI pump. None of the electric pumps will like to be run dry so the lowest mounting for the pump is best as it provides the most gravity fed pressure head from the tank.





One possible downside to the bottom pick up is it will suck any sediment or water from the tank sump. Some people view this as positive as it can’t hang out or accumulate in the tank.

I agree with David. It’s pretty darn hard to beat Bosch 044 for price and reliability for an EFI pump. Be aware there are many counterfeits of such right down to the packaging, especially on eBay. The CFs have less than stellar reputations and have wrongfully sullied the reputation of the 044.

Best,
Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:
To use a banjo fitting on the bottom of the fuel tank, you need the following:

22mm x 1.5 banjo bolt
22mm x -10AN banjo fitting (22mm x -8AN would be fine but I've never been able to find one that I could actually buy).
2 x 22mm crush washers

Re: Garth's comments regarding banjo fittings being restrictive to flow - I also had concerns in this regard since I have a Fontana based 427 cu in, fuel injected motor. The fitting in question is pretty huge (22mm x -10AN), so I decided to try it in the interest of keeping the plumbing as tight to the bottom of the fuel tank as possible. Also, the fitting supplier assured me it would be fine. They were correct as it works fine and does not impose any apparent restriction. By the way, the common application for this fitting is Porsche 911 dry sump.

I used the same bottom gas tank setup on my car and I haven't had any flow restriction problems. The engine is a 388 Fontana/Clevor with F.A.S.T XFI port fuel injection. There is a dash monitor data logger that I installed in the car and I have never indicated a low fuel pressure issue. The bottom of the fuel tank has a protective plate that was fabricated by Pantera Performance Center. It protects the fuel pump, lines, shut off valve and tank bottom fitting.

I wound up with this fitting simply because in my case there was not enough room between the tank and the hose end to use a banjo bolt.

Either you couldn't tighten the hex on the hose end or you had to shim the bajo fitting down enough to be able to do that.

I would have had to use a stack of gaskets or a very thick one.

I stand corrected on the fitting size, it is a M22-1.75. I believe it came from Pegasus Racing. It is not an Earl's. It is just stored in that Earl's package.

If you intend to race this car or put it on a track, you had better check with a "tech inspector" first.

If I was him, I'd say no way because of the decreased crash worthiness of the connection and the location. Particularly if I knew that a factory Pantera never came this way to begin with.

You are altering the tank in a way that was never tested and in all likeliness increasing the risk of a tank rupture in an "accident".

By it's nature, an accident is unpredictable.

That you won't know until you have one. It's only 20+ gallons on the drivers side. Might be hard for the emergency workers to get to the driver as a result? Maybe not? Who knows?

The other thing is that the fluid bolt, pipe thread fitting or whatever the threaded connection you are putting into the tank will project up above the bottom of the tank bung internally and you won't be able to get all of the fuel out of the tank beyond the top of the projection.



All this doesn't matter to me. I went another way with the setup.

I went with a fuel SUMP and love it. I will never have a problem with sucking air and the high G corners.

The arguments re an in-tank pump vs a 'christmas-tree' of fittings hanging off the thin sheet metal tank bottom with an external pump has been going on for years. It has achieved the status of "what brand of beer or coffee do you like?" FWIW, I prefer using a quieter and potentially safer Ford factory in-tank pump attached to the easily-removeable sender, since my wife also drives the car and finding a replacement woman that could put up with me is not a trivial task.

Keep in mind that road-swarf damage is not the only way a tank can be torn open; high-speed accidents like Art Hoppe's roll-over at 180+ a few years back ripped his tank open, causing a fire to add to his excitement.

Hi, thanks for all the comments/suggestions.
Would like just to double check following point; my '71 car has a early type aluminum tank (factory wrapped in fiberglass); would that tank also feature same drain plug that can be used to mount the fuel supply fitting?

"I think the way to do it IS to change the fuel pickup/sender unit to the current service combination one. You can get those from Wilkinson."
Could you please explain what do you mean by this; is there a unit available that includes a fuel pump and sender unit all in one that would fit into my stock sender location?
If so, how much flow/pressure that pump delivers?
I am concerned to get appropriate pump as I currently have issues of motor running lean at high rpm's due to my current Holley red pump not being able to keep up from 5000 RPM.

There is no combination of internal fuel pump/pickup/gauge sender made specifically for the Pantera that I know of.

Bosswrench made his own by using one of the current Ford in the tank pumps and adapting the Pantera pickup to it. Ask him. Maybe he will make one for you on a new pickup?

The simplest system by far would to change out your fuel gauge sender for this. This will now be the fuel pick up as well as the sender.

The existing pickup with the banjo fitting can now be used as the FI return line.

The mechanical pump that you have will not provide enough fuel pressure for the fuel injection.

You will need a high pressure electric fuel pump.

Either leave the existing fuel pump in place and don't use it or remove it and put a cover plate over the hole.

This is the sender unit. http://www.panterapartsusa.com...l.cgi?prod_id=09003A

I don't know what surprises are in store for you with the aluminum tank. I would hope few and that the steel and the aluminum tanks are functionally and dimensionaly the same?

I never had one so I really can't say it is or isn't the same?

Setrab oil coolers http://www.setrabusa.com/produ...ns/banjos/index.html makes several 22mm banjo bolts ranging from -6an to -12an. They are readily available and do not restrict fuel flow. I'm using the -8an version. The only problem i have had was when some trash got in my tank and got pulled into the banjo bolt, restricting the fuel flow. I was still able to drive, but could not maintain fuel pressure under load. I resolved this with a stainless steel fuel strainer.

Perforated stainless steel strainer inserts into the banjo bolt and extends up into the tank. The larger holes at the base of the bolt are not shown.

Dear 71HI and Pantera Doug,


The aluminum and steel tanks are not the same dimensionally. I know this second hand from Ted and Rick Mitchell. Between them they had three or four Panteras. They had a Pantera with a leaky steel tank and they decided it would be economical and efficient to simply transplant their aluminum gas tank into a later Pantera. Ted told me that it is not "bolt in". Apparently, there are a number of fitment issues that make this "easy" task challenging.


Warmest regards, Chuck Engles

alasorsa,

Is the strainer also a Setrab item? Would you happen to have the part #?

Thanks.

No, that is custom piece I made. PM me if you need more info.

Before you go too far down this road, first figure out what your future plans are for the Pantera. If they include somehow increasing output above about 450 bhp and then actually using that power, not only should you replace the fuel pump with a heavy duty type (either electric or mechanical) but also consider increasing the size of the stock fuel lines. The slightly-less-than-5/16" ID steel lines simply will not allow enough fuel to transfer, so you risk the engine going lean at high rpms over a minute or so of use.

The line coming out of the tank on early cars plus the brass banjo bolt is one restriction; another is the connecting line to the carb. Later cars use a same-sized fuel line built-into the late fuel sender so the same #1 restriction occurs- this is the only sender still available and it retrofits perfectly into older models. While I added my in-tank pump to an early sender, the completed assembly still fits into the unaltered tank & removes as-stock. Adding the late sender to an early tank gives you one extra fuel-out line so you can use one for fuel feed and the other for EFI return. Or simply plug the unused one until you need it.

If you want to alleviate this for future Bonneville or Open Road events, I've converted a few new senders to 3/8" ID fuel-out lines, good for a sustained 700 bhp. If you decide to use an in-tank electric pump, they also come as std & heavy-duty. When I added a std in-tank electric pump to our car, the pump sits in the bottom of the tank and comes with a stock replaceable Ford poly fuel filter that snaps onto the pump base. NO alterations are required to the tank.

Note- EFI requires different fuel filtration than carbs. Carbs will tolerate 40 micron debris at 7 psi while EFI needs about 10 micron filters that also must withstand up to 75 psi without blowing apart.