Fontana block & oil level

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
I know I brought this up before, but I still find it perplexing why the oil level shows so high on the sticks for my Fontana block Panteras. Red car has a 417 Fontana block build and my black car has a 427 Fontana block build and both cars have a 10 qt oil pan. It just came to mind again because I am changing oil on my black car and it brought back memories of the oddity. Oil sticks are the correct length too. I get concerned that I am putting in too much oil, but maybe I should just let it go and add my usual 9 qt and accept that it is correct. Photos below show the red car and black car oil on the stick after filter change and adding 9qt (that's even after letting the cars sit for 2 weeks the level is the same as shown). I wouldn't think it has anything to do with the fact that they both are Fontana blocks, but its odd that both are and both cars show overfill on the stick.

Oil pan:

Black 5S oil pan by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Red car:

9 Quarts In Red5S Gives This Level To First R In Warning by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Black car:

ITSWIKDStickAnd9QT by JanDaMan, on Flickr

PM sent. Actually, you might check the length of the dip stick tubes on each engine and see if they are both the same length. The tube length would determine how far the stick goes into the pan. I have a custom built Steff's aluminum oil pan on my Fontana engine and I would be way over filled at nine quarts of oil, but you can't use that as a guideline.

Jan, you might try using both sticks on the same engine and if they read the same on each single engine but each block reads different it probably is different tube lengths as stated by JFFR.

I would call Bob over at Precision Proformance and ask him.

Here is an illustration from my notes on oil level. I was wanting to hear from others what the clearance between oil level and "crank circle" should be. As I recall I never got a "rule of thumb", with desired level varing based upon engine use.

the things mentioned to comapare and see if idencial would be;

are the pans same
are the oil pickups the same (different size would vary level)
are the tubes from stop to pan joint the same
are the sticks from stop to full mark the same

Thanks guys. Yes the dip sticks on my 3 cars are the same length, so if I even take my group 4 stick (383 stroker with 10 qt oil pan) and put it in either Fontana engine car, that stick reads over full too. However in the group 4 the stick reads just full at about 9 or 9.5 qt. Maybe later when I get back I will give Bob a call as suggested. But I thought Precision Proformance became Full Throttle in the move to Temecula unless Bob has his own shop for parts as Precision Proformance and Don does Full Throttle. I probably should have just taken it in to Full Throttle in person to take a look, but now too far away in Temecula for me. I love the modified cars and trying to do some of the simple work myself, but at times working on them leaves me wondering WTF. I would ask the builder, but Gary Hall RIP. He built about 18 of these cars & it often makes me wonder where the other 17 owners are for asking them too. I think Hall Pantera kept Purple Passion, so I may call there too to see what they put in for oil change.

Any of the guys that worked for Gary should know but anyone who put Fontana's in Panteras would also.

That's why I suggested Bob but his brother Don or Mike Cook would know also I'm sure.



You need to get this sorted out anyway since if you get someone else to change the oil for you they are just going to be confused as well. You have me confused already.

It was probably Doug Cook who put the engine together for Gary and they must have screwed with the length of the tube?


I remember when I had the Boss 351 in my Shelby, I could often hear the dipstick hit the bottom of the oil pan when I put it back in so exactly how the math is working out with this stick and the pan that you have is beyond me UNLESS it doesn't really have the capacity you think it does and you ARE overfilling the pan? That's for sure ok on about 1" of oil "over the fill mark" on the stick but more and you just start spinning the crank in the oil.


If you remember what I posted about the 428 Fords, Ford didn't have problems until they put the CJ in the Mustang? Then all of a sudden they were loosing engines under warranty because the engine would pump the pan dry at 6,000 rpm. Their solution was to leave the stock production oil pan in, put two more quarts in the pan, add a sandwiched in "windage tray" and modify the dipstick to show normal with the two more quarts. It worked.

In those small pans, that's about an inch higher then designed, if not more? Really close to spinning in the oil. Considering the results, it's safe to say that high a level isn't much of an issue?



With my car with the stock iron block and Aviad pan, I just fill it to the fill mark. I'm pretty sure that's 10 quarts right there and 12 for the entire system with the dual remote oil filters, about 10 feet of -10 hose and the oil cooler.

If I were you, I wouldn't even change the oil until it started clouding up. I run Mobil 1 and it's a clear to amber color new.

If you are showing signs of water vapors in the oil, then the oil isn't getting hot enough and you are over cooling.

Once it gets over 212 you cook the water vapor out of it. Some of the racers say 185 is good enough but that makes no sense to me?

Even if you like a 180 water temp or so, you should monitor the oil temp and try to get it over 212. 210 to 220 is a good temp to aim for.



I've got a thermostatic device, an oil cooler thermostat, in line that's set at 210f. That locks out the cooler. The oil cooler has a piggie back fan that comes on at 220 automatically.

I can't remember the last time it came on?

With the big pan and all that oil it takes a while to get hot normally.

This thing could probably run at the salt flats in the heat and not get hot?

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

... I was wanting to hear from others what the clearance between oil level and "crank circle" should be. As I recall I never got a "rule of thumb", with desired level varing based upon engine use ...

The oil level should be below the windage tray. Even the factory cobra jet oil pan has a windage tray. The windage tray can't prevent windage if the oil level is above the tray. Obviously the windage tray has to clear the reciprocating assembly. How's that for a rule of thumb?

quote:

Originally posted by George P:

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

... I was wanting to hear from others what the clearance between oil level and "crank circle" should be. As I recall I never got a "rule of thumb", with desired level varing based upon engine use ...

The oil level should be below the windage tray. Even the factory cobra jet oil pan has a windage tray. The windage tray can't prevent windage if the oil level is above the tray. Obviously the windage tray has to clear the reciprocating assembly. How's that for a rule of thumb?

thumbs up!

Just chatted with Don and he said that overfill on the stock stick is common with the Fontana block builds with 10 qt oil pan. He tried to explain to me but besides being a mechanical rookie I am more of a visual guy too so I was a little lost. If I saw a photo visually that would click with me. He is in the process of building a Fontana set up now and expects the same situation. He basically builds the engine, puts 10 qt in and then re-welds the stick to match the actual fill mark. This probably explains why both my Fontana builds show overfill on the stick, but in actuality it is not overfull. So I will just put in my 9.5 or so and then return to my usual practice of monitoring on the "W" or "A" on the stick for being full.

As far as oil temp, you are correct I should probably drive the car longer to get the oil temp up. Will take longer beach cruises. On oil change the oil was dark, even though I don't drive it much so it needed the change anyway. I like to see it pretty clear on the stick.

Why don't you ask him to make a couple of correct sticks for you when he does his?

quote:

Why don't you ask him to make a couple of correct sticks for you when he does his?

Yeah but if I eventually sold either car it wouldn't leave the new owner anything to be puzzled about. Don did say the stick could be fixed though to match the engine 10 qt level. Probably the proper thing to do, but I can live with it as is because my real concern was the proper oil level. Tara at Hall also said the amount should be 9 qt (8 in the pan one in the filter). I figure it is their engine and their pan so they should know. I am ok with 9 as I know there are questions out there too about 10 qt pans really taking 10 or 9 and on my changes I have usually put in 9.

Does the engine blocks has the same deck heigt, 9,5 or 9,2?

quote:

Originally posted by SF:
Does the engine blocks has the same deck heigt, 9,5 or 9,2?

Not sure, how can I tell? I could look at the spec sheets but I don't recall anything like that mentioned on either car.

Plus one other minor thing regarding the black 5S is that it has front air bag/shocks and I figure if slammed down all the way that would tilt the oil forward somewhat in the pan. I presume the dip stick measures at the front area of the pan by the looks of the location. But anyway, I try to measure level regardless but anyone with airbags on the front or other lowering it may make some difference.

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:

quote:

Why don't you ask him to make a couple of correct sticks for you when he does his?

Yeah but if I eventually sold either car it wouldn't leave the new owner anything to be puzzled about. Don did say the stick could be fixed though to match the engine 10 qt level. Probably the proper thing to do, but I can live with it as is because my real concern was the proper oil level. Tara at Hall also said the amount should be 9 qt (8 in the pan one in the filter). I figure it is their engine and their pan so they should know. I am ok with 9 as I know there are questions out there too about 10 qt pans really taking 10 or 9 and on my changes I have usually put in 9.

Mine is an AVIAD. It takes 10 but who's to say my car isn't a little screwy anyway?

I can tell because the decals are still on it. You can't get them off. They must weld them on or use some kind of high tech glue?

Maybe your pans are another brand? The bottom of yours look different with that checkerboard pattern.

It's too cold to go out in the garage tonight. It's 6 with 50 mph winds. Otherwise I'd take a pic to show you what I mean. I'm glad it warmed up a little.

Maybe tomorrow? It's supposed to go up to 16.

Looks like it's a Hall 10 qt Pan, but I see Don at Precision Proformance has them too with that bumpy pattern on the bottom (links below). Sorry about your cold weather. CA has been a bit warm, just finished mowing the lawn in shorts & wife beater shirt.

http://hallpantera.com/cgi-bin...ntera-inc&item=20620

http://precisionproformance.com/en3000.php

I've asked Tara simple questions in the past which she doesn't know so I stopped asking. What she did know I questioned the accuracy of.

As far as the temps here, they're not so bad. As soon as the wind dies down a little we can play golf again with the orange balls.

They are a compromise though. Under 10 degrees, they don't go as far and you can't get any roll on the fairways because they stick in the snow when they land.

Plus instead of using a sand wedge, you need to use a snow shovel to get under the ball to lift it. The golf carts need snow chains on the tires also.

It takes some getting used to?

I am from Ithaca so I know the cold & snow and kind of miss it all. Here in CA its the same old same old basically year round. As far as Tara, she called Tommy Hodges too since he did a lot of work on that car and he confirmed 9 qt goes in. I am glad I am retired and have all the time in the world to fart around, because pouring oil into that car takes about 15 minutes per quart with the small entry at the valve cover. Put it in too fast and it spills out. But like weight training, I rested in between sets at half quart and each quart, ha ha.

Oil Input by JanDaMan, on Flickr

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
I am from Ithaca so I know the cold & snow and kind of miss it all. Here in CA its the same old same old basically year round. As far as Tara, she called Tommy Hodges too since he did a lot of work on that car and he confirmed 9 qt goes in. I am glad I am retired and have all the time in the world to fart around, because pouring oil into that car takes about 15 minutes per quart with the small entry at the valve cover. Put it in too fast and it spills out. But like weight training, I rested in between sets at half quart and each quart, ha ha.

Oil Input by JanDaMan, on Flickr

I thought that valve cover had a "punch out"? In fact I know that it does so those guys must have done something different to it, like drill a bunch of 1/4" holes in it instead of knocking the punch out, out, or in as it were?

Probably because they bolted on a facy polished gismo that wouldn't work with the puch out?
Humm.

You're retired. Stop playing with that bimbo and take the valve cover off and make a bigger oil filler hole in it.

You can send her over her to me. She can help me here. I'll find something for her to do. Maybe she likes snow? The hot tub is the best part of that scene.

Here is the black fancy cover on the valve cover. I will leave it as is since it looks pretty and with the small hole it takes my oil change into several hours so it gives me something to do. Now onward to brake fluid change. Had to take a beach cruise today in the convertible though for a break.

Yeah I can visualize the hot tub scene you mention, with hot babe & steam coming off the water with NY snow all around. Sounds pretty damn good to me.

427 Fontana Aluminum FE Engine by JanDaMan, on Flickr

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:
Here is the black fancy cover on the valve cover. I will leave it as is since it looks pretty and with the small hole it takes my oil change into several hours so it gives me something to do. Now onward to brake fluid change. Had to take a beach cruise today in the convertible though for a break.

Yeah I can visualize the hot tub scene you mention, with hot babe & steam coming off the water with NY snow all around. Sounds pretty damn good to me.

427 Fontana Aluminum FE Engine by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Especially if she lets me wash her back...and front, then dry her? Car? What car?

I had that pan, Bobby said they are not 10 but 9 quart pans, then 1 for your PH8A and + any oil cooler. I think your fine.

I had the same questions on my car that came with a Hall pan. I finally concluded that the pan was designed for 10 quarts but still wasn't 100% sure that was right.
Does anyone know for sure how far the oil level should be below the surface on the front of the block that the tube goes into? If I knew that, I could measure the tube and dipstick and know for sure where to mark the dipstick.

I have preached this previously but for those that missed the sermon.

If you have confirmed that your oil dipstick is the correct length (there is a TSB that outlines this) and there are no modifications to the dipstick tube (not something that I have ever known anybody to do) the correct oil fill level is exactly the same as it was when that Cleveland engine left the factory. Oil level is based on a vertical measurement of the oil in the pan, not in anyway linked to the number of quarts of oil in the pan.

You can install any oil pan you can find, you can listen to whoever wants to label that oil pan as an 8 quart or a 9 quart or a 10 quart oil pan, you can get all the advice you wish from all the people you want to talk to. You can add remote oil filters, oil coolers, and 10 feet of oil hose.

The bottom line is that the fill line on the oil dipstick is the level your oil should be at.

But feel free to make this issue as complicated as you wish.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
I have preached this previously but for those that missed the sermon.

If you have confirmed that your oil dipstick is the correct length (there is a TSB that outlines this) and there are no modifications to the dipstick tube (not something that I have ever known anybody to do) the correct oil fill level is exactly the same as it was when that Cleveland engine left the factory. Oil level is based on a vertical measurement of the oil in the pan, not in anyway linked to the number of quarts of oil in the pan.

You can install any oil pan you can find, you can listen to whoever wants to label that oil pan as an 8 quart or a 9 quart or a 10 quart oil pan, you can get all the advice you wish from all the people you want to talk to. You can add remote oil filters, oil coolers, and 10 feet of oil hose.

The bottom line is that the fill line on the oil dipstick is the level your oil should be at.

But feel free to make this issue as complicated as you wish.

Larry

I agree with you 100 percent about the location of the dipstick full mark and not making a difference with how large the pan is. The individual that started the thread was talking about a Fontana aluminum block and not a Cleveland block. The Fontana uses a modified removable timing cover like a Windsor block. I am quite sure that the length of the dipstick tube is different than a Cleveland engine. I don't have a Cleveland block laying around anymore to take the measurements, but I do have a Fontana block that I can measure.

quote:

Originally posted by over50:
I had the same questions on my car that came with a Hall pan. I finally concluded that the pan was designed for 10 quarts but still wasn't 100% sure that was right.
Does anyone know for sure how far the oil level should be below the surface on the front of the block that the tube goes into? If I knew that, I could measure the tube and dipstick and know for sure where to mark the dipstick.

I don't think that the dipstick and tube on my Cleveland are stock. The dipstick is a flexible coil spring with poorly marked end stick piece. They came with the car so I don't know where they were bought. I would like the Cleveland measurement frmm the block hole down so I can double check. I agree with the statements about the pan not making a difference for desired fill level.

quote:

Originally posted by over50:...I would like the Cleveland measurement frmm the block hole down so I can double check. ....

This is what I gathered JUST BY READING the TSB. I don't have an engine to verify any of this.

edit; the infor was NOT from the TSBs, BUT from another post here by LF- TP 2511 (reffer to his following post)

quote:

Originally posted by JFB #05177:

quote:

Originally posted by over50:...I would like the Cleveland measurement frmm the block hole down so I can double check. ....

This is what I gathered JUST BY READING the TSB. I don't have an engine to verify any of this

Do you have a link to the TSB. I don't remember seeing it in this discussion.

seems to me the question should be how many quarts in the pan is right for the engine?

put the car on a chassis dyno with 7 quarts in the pan for a baseline, 7 should not be too many if the suspected target is 10. add 1 quart and run make a pull. repeat until you see evidence of oil level reducing power (windage) and you've found the TOO MANY number. pick a number of quarts that you consider the capacity of the pan to be and check the stick

what does the grab end of the dip look like, can it be shortened to raise the gauge to read full with the decided upon volume of oil in the pan?

maybe a set-screw collar or stack of heat shrink tubing to create a sleeve?

quote:

I would like the Cleveland measurement frmm the block hole down so I can double check.

Took these dimensions from the unit I removed from 2511.

or...

quote:

I don't think that the dipstick and tube on my Cleveland are stock.

That presents a problem.

If you just want to toss what you have and start over, I solved the issue about 7 years ago with a custom-ordered Lokar flexible braided SS unit.

Details are in this thread:

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...=874104556#874104556

Larry

Since I'm reposting info from the previous post, I'll add this bit of new data.

I compared the dipstick/tube ends of the unit removed from 2511 when I installed the Lokar unit with a standard Ford Cleveland dipstick/tube.

Not enough difference to make any noticeable difference. Just interesting info.

enjoy

Larry

I just took measurements of my tube and dipstick. The dimensional info was great - but - I guess I need to know if the tube bump should be even with the block surface. On mine, there appears to be a rubber grommet with the tube going thru it. I suspect it must be a homemade or a Velocity channel outfit bad/quickie build. Should the tube bump, seat against the block surface I see or does it go down into a recess. If into a recess, how deep is the recess? This will make a difference in the oil level on the dipstick.
Thanks for all the info so far.
Norm

quote:

I guess I need to know if the tube bump should be even with the block surface

I just went out and looked at two of my Cleveland blocks.

The hole where the tube enters is drilled oversized (to the tube O.D. itself) to about 1/4" below the pad surface. That hole is chamfered at the top.

So, the tube bump would sit on that lower hole surface, about 1/4" below the pad.

Larry

The more I look at it the more it looks like gray RTV rather than a grommet. Thanks for the dimension. I can adjust the marks I put on the dipstick by that 1/4".
Thanks
Norm