Here is the pilot needle bearing I got from Wilkinson today. It is stamped with FC65662, USA, and INA. I am not sure what INA means. Wilkinson said that a long time back, Ford superseded the their oilite bushing with this needle bearing. Equivalent needle bearings are currently available from Timken and National. My hunch is that Ford no longer makes this needle bearing. I will be replacing my magnetic oilite bushing in the last photo below with this needle bearing.
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Thanks Steve for this information. You know I am a little behind you on my build, but will need one. Received my new clutch assembly on Monday. Going to Clay Smith Cams tomorrow.
Great info !!... Thanks for helping everyone Steve!
OK. Here is my QUESTION. If there is a valid concern of using a high iron content "bushing" on the ZF input's nose, how is using a hardened needle bearing on it acceptable?
How do you lubricate that bearing?
Here is my concern, this is the replacement from Ford for THEIR small block engines using THEIR transmissions. Not the ZF. The ZF needs were never part of the data evaluated. So it was never considered as a replacement for the ZF. In that consideration, THIS IS THE WRONG APPLICATION.
Here, I am going to disagree with Wilkinson on this and say that this is the WRONG application of the part, even though it fits by dimension.
Marlin's is simply the best you could use as a replacement. It was made with all the concerns necessary for the ZF. It is not over designed and OVERLY executed. The PART is not the issue.
Since that is no longer available from him, either find a new one from a private seller or use the second best part, the original Ford part.
For the sake of discussion, has anyone checked with Butfoy?
This is for a Pantera project that I received in February and what you see in the third photo above is the pilot bushing that came with the car. The pilot bushing looks tired to me and needs to be replaced. Also, I don't like the wear pattern on the input shaft. Since I have to replace the pilot bushing, I'm going with a seemingly good solution. I have had six Panteras and each one got a pilot needle bearing. The only issue I have had is damaging an original Ford pilot needle bearing when putting the transaxle back into my white push button Pantera because I had incorrect alignment of the engine/trans. Push buttons have a different size spacer for the pilot needle bearing making that mishap a little more of an adventure to resolve.
Here is a photo of the ZF input shaft on this current project car. I don't think it is damaged but my other Panteras that all had pilot needle bearings seem to have healthier looking snouts on the ZF compared to this one.
Steve - attached is the ball bearing Safir specs on my GT40 clutch using the ZF. The o.d. is 1 & 3/8" to fit the SBF crank. I believe the 351C is the same? I.D. is the 17mm / 0.669 for the ZF. I will let you now in a year how it works ! This setup is being used extensively for the Ford to ZF combo.
Perhaps it could be used for the Pantera as well
That simply may be discoloration on the nose from an overheated substance such as some kind of lube applied to it on a previous installation.
It may clean off with just steel wool and a solvent?
We probably are all open here to hear the results with specific solutions. I certainly am.
Best of luck with your new project!
Thanks Doug. I will steel wool it and try to report back in a couple of days. I am bouncing between Pantera in two locations.
@panterapatt posted:Steve - attached is the ball bearing Safir specs on my GT40 clutch using the ZF. The o.d. is 1 & 3/8" to fit the SBF crank. I believe the 351C is the same? I.D. is the 17mm / 0.669 for the ZF. I will let you now in a year how it works ! This setup is being used extensively for the Ford to ZF combo.
Perhaps it could be used for the Pantera as well
Thanks Lee.
I vaguely recall seeing this before and it fell off my radar screen. I plan to order one and will show it to Wilkinson along with your description.
I just now measured my new pilot needle bearing and it is 35mm OD and 17mm ID. It seems like it would work.
Perfect Steve. The Ford spec on the GT clutch was this small ball bearing. So they were not using a bushing back in 65.
I spoke with Wilkinson about this and he said the pilot ball bearing pretty much has to work correctly. This makes sense because it is already in use by a bunch of GT40s. He also explained that the needles in a pilot needle bearing are hollow and softer material than the ZF input shaft and when it fails the needles disintegrate and leave the input shaft unharmed. His only concern with the pilot ball bearing is that if the ball bearing seizes then the input shaft could spin on the inner race and it could damage the input shaft because the race is harder material than the input shaft.
My hunch is that the pilot ball bearing almost never fails. The needle bearing is more likely to fail because it is unsealed. Either bearing gets very little use in our cars (Panteras and GT40s) because we don't drive them that much and they are only behaving as a bearing when the clutch pedal is pressed down.
Just an aside, he also shared that he has pulled a lot of Ford oilite bushings with oblong holes. This likely applies to Panteras that had been driven 50,000 miles or more.
He can still get the Ford FC65662 Pilot Needle Bearing and received his last batch about 6 months ago.
I canceled my order for the ball bearing from Amazon. Wilkinson said he can get the ball bearing for $4.
All good to know Steve. Thanks for the diligence!!!
The Amazon bearing is nice but how does it work as a bearing if it isn't press fit to the ZF input shaft?
It would be acting as a "bushing" and the input shaft would just be spinning in the bearing race otherwise?
It is like an axle bearing and those need to be pressed on the axle shaft. Zero clearance is a press fit.
The Ford bushing needs to be tapped into the crank with a wooden block to seat it. So maybe it is .001" smaller?
I can't say as I have seen any Ford "bushing" oblong ever and 50,000 mile Panteras are kind of rare? Sometimes memory seems all to convenient? I also doubt you would get 50,000 miles out of the original clutch especially considering the nature of the car? I'd think 30,000 to 35.000 miles is more like it?
A roller bearing has more potential of freezing or rusting in place from disuse and I HAVE seen the "seal" on the sealed axle bearings come loose and self destruct as a result.
I personally appreciate everyone's good research but I just have to say that an "machined oilite bronze bearing/bushing" is just one heck of a brilliant solution!
I wouldn't necessarily put a lot of faith into what was originally used in the GT-40's. They really were never intended to be anything but endurance race cars.
They were all torn down after every race and rebuilt so there is very little likeliness of needing to last 50,000 miles.
In a street car the pilot bushing only needs to last as long as the clutch does.
The GT40 ball bearing is tapped into the crank end. I dont have either yet so can not comment on how it works but there are hundreds of SAFIR clutch setups in use so I am going with their engineering that has been done on this system with the ZF 17mm spigot in that bearing. I know of several cars being built presently using this.
@panterapatt posted:The GT40 ball bearing is tapped into the crank end. I dont have either yet so can not comment on how it works but there are hundreds of SAFIR clutch setups in use so I am going with their engineering that has been done on this system with the ZF 17mm spigot in that bearing. I know of several cars being built presently using this.
I wasn't commenting on what SAFIR recommends. They know much more then I do.
INA is a European bearing manufacturer, Italian I think but I'm not sure, specialized in needle bearings.
I will have the MJ oilite example measured and I will post it....
@panteradoug posted:That simply may be discoloration on the nose from an overheated substance such as some kind of lube applied to it on a previous installation.
It may clean off with just steel wool and a solvent?
Here it is after steel wool and acetone. Not much change.
Try 400 wet/dry sand paper.
Thanks Doug. It cleaned up nicely with some light sanding.
