Fuel System Issues - Help please

Peter,

Sound like you had your first bad experience. I for one would replace all the electric fuel pumps with one good mechanical pump back in the engine .. aftermarket pumps do a fine job and much safer.

The Euro and US motors are exactly the same ... I have both and see no difference.

If the carb is the factory auto lite I would replace it with an new style Holley preferably a 750cfm and I personally prefer vac secondaries.

On top of which metal fuel line and a metal fuel filter rather then glass or plastic is always the safest bet. The less rubber hose the better.

Ron

The inlet valve in the carb was stuck open from sitting for so long with no fuel in the carb.

It may be ok now but would be much safer to have that carb rebuilt or as Ron suggested, switch it over to a Holley.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Peter,

Sound like you had your first bad experience. I for one would replace all the electric fuel pumps with one good mechanical pump back in the engine .. aftermarket pumps do a fine job and much safer.

The Euro and US motors are exactly the same ... I have both and see no difference.

If the carb is the factory auto lite I would replace it with an new style Holley preferably a 750cfm and I personally prefer vac secondaries.

On top of which metal fuel line and a metal fuel filter rather then glass or plastic is always the safest bet. The less rubber hose the better.

Ron

Thank you for the advice Ron, now I have no idea what you mean by Vac secondaries, I shall google it, I have asked my son to go to Chino Hills for a new mechanical pump and fitting, I will ask also for the Holley 750cfm.

whilst here there, he lives in Los Angelese so I'm pretty lucky in that way. sorry for my lack of knowledge!

Peter,

No reason to be sorry. I must comment I may have taken the Liberty in assuming the Engine in this car is some what close to production status ?

Holley makes both the Carburetor and mechanical, pump ... If you need assistance I our a few other can guide you properly.

It might be helpful to post a picture of the engine and some specs if the seller provided you with them.

Ron

Peter,

With your electric pump now working, check your fuel pressure. If it is too high it will push fuel past your float needle. Fuel can come out the carb vent like a fountain with high fuel pressure. I recommend installing a simple in-line fuel pressure gauge and adjustable regulator.

Sincerely,

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The inlet valve in the carb was stuck open from sitting for so long with no fuel in the carb.

x 2. I would try running it again with a fire extinguisher handy before I go breaking out $300+ on a new carb(and then another $300 on the intake because the holley won't bolt up to the stock intake. And sure you could use an adaptor plate but then your engine screen won't fit.)

The issue is safety. If the inlet valve has even a suggestion that it has been compromised, it would be best to replace it.

You were fortunate that you saw the fuel flooding.

In my experience they would usually flood into the engine first where you won't see it.

Holley carbs are not immune to this either. You can't let the engine sit for more than a few months without the bowl gaskets and pump diaphragm drying up and shrinking.

The Holley fuel valves will stick usually open from being dry.


Autolite 4100 carbs are favored on the Ford 289 HP engines instead of the Holleys because they have no bowl gaskets. People let these engines sit for years then on a whim try to go start them.

Once you get fuel in the carb and let it sit to let the gas work as a solvent on the valve, you have a chance that the floats are still good.

Holley carbs have brass fuel floats. They often collapse from sitting in ignored engines AND the accelerator gasket/diaphragm usually dries out and cracks from having sit dry after being exposed to fuel.


This business of people POURING gas down a carb to start an engine that has not been run in a long while is really just trying to explode a fire bomb.

They may have gotten lucky a couple of times on that but eventually they will run out of luck.

For one think the backfiring from that will usually fry up the carb anyway. The rod that holds the choke flat in place will get bent from the backfire and you have to rebuild or repair the carb anyway for just that.


I have seen Holley carbs burned so bad that the boosters are distorted, melted, from the heat of the flames the engine throws in the backfires.

This is really nothing that you want to play around with in an attempt to be economical.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Peter,

No reason to be sorry. I must comment I may have taken the Liberty in assuming the Engine in this car is some what close to production status ?

Holley makes both the Carburetor and mechanical, pump ... If you need assistance I our a few other can guide you properly.

It might be helpful to post a picture of the engine and some specs if the seller provided you with them.

Ron

I have asked my son to collect the new mechanical pump from Chino Hills as he isn't too far away from there they are going to contact him this afternoon with prices of the carb you suggested and a belt kit. My car is pretty standard, I haven't driven it yet for I have to register it with the authorities, after getting the car tested, and I can't do that without making the fuel system safe, thanks for the advice, it is appreciated hopefully pics of my engine and carb. pics failed! OK now, the carb has to be goosed being so old, a new one just makes sense to me.

I have started over 100 engines by pouring fuel down the carb and have never damaged a carb to date. Is it potentially dangerous? Yes, but so is trying to get into a Pantera without putting your back out.

Don't make something as simple as starting an engine that has been sitting a while into a $1000 three day adventure when it just not that hard.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
I have started over 100 engines by pouring fuel down the carb and have never damaged a carb to date. Is it potentially dangerous? Yes, but so is trying to get into a Pantera without putting your back out.

Don't make something as simple as starting an engine that has been sitting a while into a $1000 three day adventure when it just not that hard.

don't you think it might have been a better idea to find the problem with the 100+ engines before
going to pyromania palace.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
I have started over 100 engines by pouring fuel down the carb and have never damaged a carb to date. Is it potentially dangerous? Yes, but so is trying to get into a Pantera without putting your back out.

Don't make something as simple as starting an engine that has been sitting a while into a $1000 three day adventure when it just not that hard.

don't you think it might have been a better idea to find the problem with the 100+ engines before
going to pyromania palace.

Peter,
The picture basically shows a stock motor with stock carb ... I personally would favor reliability and not burning your new car to the ground.

Only one issue and maybe Doug will chime in ... your going to need an adapter plate to put a std holley on that intake manifold ... or maybe consider rebuilding the existing carb OR get a Holley replacement carb 650 CFM Four Barrel Street Carburetor PART #: 0-9895

Ron

I DON'T have experience with that carb. The simplest thing would be to buy a rebuilt kit for it, take it off and follow the instructions. I doubt that you need to be a rocket scientist to do it. Here a kit would cost you about $30. Can't do better that that.

It might be a good idea to start with what you have and drive it around some. You might like the nature of the car the way it is? You can always start modifying it later.

Let me know when you get to the Webers. There I can help you alot!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
I have started over 100 engines by pouring fuel down the carb and have never damaged a carb to date. Is it potentially dangerous? Yes, but so is trying to get into a Pantera without putting your back out.

Don't make something as simple as starting an engine that has been sitting a while into a $1000 three day adventure when it just not that hard.

don't you think it might have been a better idea to find the problem with the 100+ engines before
going to pyromania palace.

Geez you start half a dozen fires and suddenly you're a pyromaniac!

There was actually nothing wrong with the engines that needed the fuel, just empty fuel bowls. That's the point, there is nothing wrong. No need to buy a new carb just because you have a sticky needle and seat.

I shall again go down the rebuild road, and see how she goes, thanks to everyone for their advice.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraWanabe:
I have started over 100 engines by pouring fuel down the carb and have never damaged a carb to date. Is it potentially dangerous? Yes, but so is trying to get into a Pantera without putting your back out.

Don't make something as simple as starting an engine that has been sitting a while into a $1000 three day adventure when it just not that hard.

don't you think it might have been a better idea to find the problem with the 100+ engines before
going to pyromania palace.

Geez you start half a dozen fires and suddenly you're a pyromaniac!

There was actually nothing wrong with the engines that needed the fuel, just empty fuel bowls. That's the point, there is nothing wrong. No need to buy a new carb just because you have a sticky needle and seat.

Gasolene, in order to be fuel, needs to be atomized. It needs to be mixed with air to at least a ratio of 20:1 to be combustible.

Water cannot be compressed. Liquid gasoline can not be either.

Keep pouring liquid into the combustion chamber and you will likely bend something eventually. Usually it is a connecting rod, but I suppose you could bend the valves too if you catch it right.

As far as pouring liquid gasoline down a carb to start an engine, I suppose opinions vary?

You can avoid a lot of the issue by installing an electric fuel pump to prime the system.

This will also give the inlet valves a chance to free up and the floats do their jobs.

It will also let you know if any of the carb gaskets are leaking because they dry up.

The Holley brand cork gaskets are really susceptible to shrinking as is the pump diaphragm. Best to prime the carb fist and let it sit with fuel in it for a while before you try to start it.

At first glance the Holley diaphragms sometimes seem to be holding fuel. When you go to pump the throttle though, many times they will rupture due to having been dried out.

Once you put fuel in the carb, you need to keep fuel in it or else.


The Ford carbs don't have really anything that can leak like that except for the inlet valves.

A simple rebuild on that carb should be all that you really need to do to it.

In the old days, I used to pour fuel into carbs all the time. Only had a backfire once. Never damaged the engine, but I had no eyebrows for a couple months

Doug M

quote:

Originally posted by INZOWHO: ... had a backfire once... had no eyebrows for a couple months

OOOOoooo that smell!

can't you smell that smell?

been there done that!

I can still see the boosters in the venturies surrounded by fire

the sound of the flame front coming up through the intake was pretty cool too

and my ears are Still ringin

I'm not afraid to slosh a LITTLE gas down a dry carb throat to so that the poor motor doesn't have crank and crank and crank to fill the fuel bowls and start. It's effectively the same thing you're doing when you pump the gas pedal prior to starting.

I've had some backfires, but that can happen whenever there is too much fuel in the manifold, no matter how it got there. If you're fooling with flammables keep a fire extinguisher nearby and use common sense (keep your face out of the way), it's no big deal.

Since, I've made a fuel primer bottle to fill the fuel bowls through the bowl vents. Put a little fuel in the primer bottle, screw on the cap, stick the hose into the vent and squeeze.

My Demon carb has fuel bowl level windows so it's a cinch. I just fill until I see the fuel rise in the window. With other carbs I just squeeze in an ounce or two of fuel, enough to fill the accelerator pump circuit and the engine should start right up.

When you're done with the primer bottle, loosen the cap and drain it. Vapor pressure in the bottle will cause fuel to dribble out as it warms and the plastic is not designed for long term exposure to fuel.

If you decide to rebuild your Autolite carb, it is quite easy. After you remove the top of the carb, be very aware of small parts related to the accelerator pump circuit that will fall out of the bottom section once it is inverted.

Good Luck.

I think I recognize one of you guys in this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx262soBFZs

Good stuff liked the video, am just waiting for Bob at chino hills to get the standard carb rebuild kit fuel pump points and belt kit together for shipping over hopefully next week.

I didn't go the holly route for I wanted the existing bodywork to still fit. all advice gratefully received and the communities sense of humour is reet good as they say in Lancashire!

I am also buying some seat foams and covers, the vendor has really gone out of his way to help and a member of this community could even help with posting, what a grand bunch of people.