Skip to main content

Thinking about fresh air for the engine. But I want to retain the small windows and I think the elephant ears don't look good on clean narrow body like mine (my Pantera I mean). Has any vendor or any crafty owner ever converted the fake air intakes to functional? I know this is impossible for later models with gas cap on the outside.

What would it take? New black gills with the inner part opened up? Maybe a small scoop thing at the rear to catch the air? Small! Should look OEM. And then some cutting and welding a tube on the triangle area?

If I had a highly modified Pantera, I would try it. Has anybody?
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

No-Quarter, quite a few have tried. And the consensus is, at anywhere near legal speeds, the air flow is OUT the scoops from the engine compartment. Somewhere around 140 mph, a small amount of air begins to be 'scooped' in, countering the normal flow, and by 170 mph, there's enough pressure to rip the scoops out of the body- as they're only are held in by friction of the rubber sealing boots. Your neighbors in the Swedish Club did rolling tests with tufts of yarn a decade ago to prove the boundary layer on a Pantera's side is about 4" thick. So any functional scoop should stick out further than that- hence the elephant-ears which look awful but function best.
quote:
Originally posted by Z06 Pantera:
If one used scoops like the one pictured, would it not provide a cool source of air? I think we all agree that you wouldn't get a ram air effect but what would it hurt as a simple cool air intake?


Scott is right. There is a difference between "ram air" and "cold air", they are two different things, don't confuse them. Ram air will only benefit a car traveling triple digit speeds, and the scoop must be mounted high enough to be in "clean" air. But cold air can benefit any vehicle, even street-only cars. Vehicle speed doesn't enter the picture and scoop location is not as critical. For evey 10 degrees F the temperature of the air inhaled by the motor is decreased, horsepower is increased by 1 percent. That's probably 10 to 15 horsepower for most performance cars.

Although the scoop pictured in Kid's photo is a "poor" ram air scoop, it is an excellent cold air scoop.

-G
quote:
Although the scoop pictured in Kid's photo is a "poor" ram air scoop, it is an excellent cold air scoop.


I have an extra set of gills to experiment with and - like Mikael, I would wan't it to look original. Thought about cutting slits at the bottom of the gills in a circular pattern, and then fabricate a discrete funnel to direct the air.

But, if airflow is OUT of the scoops under most conditions as Jack mentions, then will it make a difference? I guess, exiting hot air from the engine bay will also lower intake air temperature, but wouldn't the effect the gills would create be marginal?.


Kristian
quote:
Originally posted by No Quarter:
I know next to nothing about aerodynamics. But I don't see any other cars with elephant ears, Ferraris, Lambos etc., they have holes to suck in air to their engines, and those holes are integrated into the body, normally not sticking out at all?


The NACA duct principle maybe??
quote:
Originally posted by Push1267:

But, if airflow is OUT of the scoops under most conditions as Jack mentions, then will it make a difference? I guess, exiting hot air from the engine bay will also lower intake air temperature, but wouldn't the effect the gills would create be marginal?.

Kristian


The air should be ducted from the scoop directly into an enclosed air cleaner assembly. The motor will then "suck" cool air from outside the engine compartment, via the scoop; thus it is impossible for air to flow out the scoop.

Here's a web site that should give you some ideas. ram air box

-G
If you'd like to play around with aerodynamics a bit, try wetting your fingertip, then rolling a window down just an inch or so and stick the wet finger outside more-or-less in line with the gills. You'll be surprised how far out you have to reach to feel the evaporation-effect cooling your fingertip. I suspect the Pantera's side boundary layer is so thick partly because of the windshield trim & gasket, and the tall rain channels down the front pillars. There may be some effect from the depressed position of the door glass, too. But its a pain to remove the channels since they're one piece all the way back, the door gaskets seal to them and there's a 2ft long welded seam on both sides of the roof that's exposed if you pull the channels (I chose not to cut them). Other brands have no (or smaller) pillar rain-channels, flush side glass & windshields, and other body tweaks not easy to install after the fact.
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
quote:
Originally posted by Push1267:

But, if airflow is OUT of the scoops under most conditions as Jack mentions, then will it make a difference? I guess, exiting hot air from the engine bay will also lower intake air temperature, but wouldn't the effect the gills would create be marginal?.

Kristian


The air should be ducted from the scoop directly into an enclosed air cleaner assembly. The motor will then "suck" cool air from outside the engine compartment, via the scoop; thus it is impossible for air to flow out the scoop.

Here's a web site that should give you some ideas. ram air box

-G


I am using small side scoops in place of the rear windows that will have duct hoses going into a sealed air box. I don't know if I should call this a ram air system or just cold air induction.
I have a set of "scoops" that I bought many years back. I was told they were made by Hall in the 80's. They replace the louvered sections next to the quarter glass. They are formed out of sheet aluminum and the outside is primed with black. The problem I see is that they do not have a provision for the fuel filler. I can send pictures. For sale.
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
I have a set and as mentioned they will not be a ram air system ..but the one small detail we are leaving out is the Negitive Pressure created if they are tied directly into the air box / cleaner ... as Wil mentioned an 80 degree diffence .. there sure is HP to be gained ...

Ron


I have a question about how pulling air in through side scoops and into a sealed air box would be anything but positive pressure. I agree that the side scoops alone will actually flow air out as speed increases.

There seems to be a fine line between cold air induction and ram air. How much pressure does it take for a system to become a ram air system? I might try to get some figures on my system once it is installed, however I think a simple test with some yarn on the air scoop inlet will prove that it is forcing air in at highway speeds or less.
quote:
Originally posted by Panterror:
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
I reduced my air intake temp by 80* with my scoop. Easy to see on my laptop and intake temp sensor. Will


Holy smokes! That's a big deal. You can probably run a few more degrees of timing on pump gas as a result. What were the actual inlet and ambient temperatures?

Best,
K

On an average July early evening (75*), I was getting 180* inlet temps on my laptop. I now rarely see the temp go above 100*.
Will
quote:
Originally posted by JFFR:
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:Ron


I have a question about how pulling air in through side scoops and into a sealed air box would be anything but positive pressure. I agree that the side scoops alone will actually flow air out as speed increases.

There seems to be a fine line between cold air induction and ram air. How much pressure does it take for a system to become a ram air system? I might try to get some figures on my system once it is installed, however I think a simple test with some yarn on the air scoop inlet will prove that it is forcing air in at highway speeds or less.

I have a set and as mentioned they will not be a ram air system ..but the one small detail we are leaving out is the Negitive Pressure created if they are tied directly into the air box / cleaner ... as Wil mentioned an 80 degree diffence .. there sure is HP to be gained ...


The yarn test was done by the Swedes ( I think) a few years back.
As Jack said, in order to get "Ram Air", the scoops need to be a considerable distance away from the the car. You will, however, benefit from "cold air" performance increase.
Will
quote:
I have a question about how pulling air in through side scoops and into a sealed air box would be anything but positive pressure. I agree that the side scoops alone will actually flow air out as speed increases.


The negitive pressure is created when the engine sucks air in thru the carb, in turn sucks it into the aur cleaner in turn is connected to an air scoop ... which would be under a negative pressure ... a positive pressure would be if it were RAM AIR ?
...Pumps and 'Internal Combustion' Engines Don't 'Suck' in Air! They All depend on 'Atmospheric Pressure' Rushing IN to fill a VOID; Created when a Piston is Moved Down a Bore! The Term 'Negative Pressure' is Acceptable. The 'Ram' Effect works because it Increases Atmospheric Pressure. I've heard it described before as 'Mini Supercharging', this would be correct with the understanding; the Pressure increases with the Speed of the Vehicle instead of the Engine RPM.

I've used 'Ram-Air' in the past, on a front engine vehicle with a Scoop mounted directly on the Carburator, Sticking out of the Hood,(NO Filter) Pointed Forward. Yes, it makes more Power! The Engine even produces a Different Sound! Any other design NOT 'Scooping' Air, with respect to the 'Boundary Layer' is Just 'Cold Air Induction'!

Second...I will assume the 80 Degrees We are talking about was taken on the Scale of 'Fahrenheit' (26.666667 Degrees Celsius)! The Scale was never stated. 80 Degrees Celsius would equal 176 Degrees F.
Last edited by marlinjack
quote:
Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
Second...I will assume the 80 Degrees We are talking about was taken on the Scale of 'Fahrenheit' (26.666667 Degrees Celsius)! The Scale was never stated. 80 Degrees Celsius would equal 176 Degrees F.


Will wrote "On an average July early evening (75*), I was getting 180* inlet temps on my laptop. I now rarely see the temp go above 100*."

If that is degree celsius in July in Canada then the global warming gurus were off by a few millenia and we are all doomed Big Grin

Julian
I saw my car's scoops on your post. I don't use them for ram air but just for cool air. I've never tied a string to them but i know my car runs great. I put the air filter right under the scoop on the drivers side to get cool air for the supercharger. I was told it's important not to use hot engine compartment air with it. The engine air doesn't get into the space where the air intake is. I did make an aluminum shield between my rear tire and the air filter to keep road grime out of the filter. I love Pantera's design lines so I added the "fins" over the scoops just to try and keep some of the flavor of the original.
Here are some other pictures of my car.
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...200064485#4200064485

Attachments

Images (1)
  • engine
With all due respect to everyone here, my interpretation of what was meant by positive and negative air flow from the rear window location that has been opened to the atmosphere, i.e., the glass removed is that within that 3-4" boundary immediately surrounding the cars surface, with the car in motion, the air flow will be out of the engine compartment, not into.

That is defined as negative air flow.

Beyond that static air boundary, i.e., further then the 3 to 4 inches to the surface, a scoop will create an air flow into the engine compartment.

If one completely isolates the induction to some kind of a ducting device (hose) and attaches it to the scoop, if it is within the 3 to 4" boundary of the cars surface, the air flow will be outward, away from the engines induction. If it is beyond that boundary, it will be into the induction.

Obviously the engine will continue to provide a demand for air in a completely enclosed system and at some point in the engine rpm and the vehicle speed it could reach a point where no air will flow into the induction.

That is presuming that the vehicle speed necessary to create this static situation of no flow in or out, is within the useful speed of the vehicle.

In other words, not at something over 200mph for example?

I think the best solution is to use a scoop that is not connected with ducting to the induction and therefore permit the direction of the airflow change or adjust itself as the aerodynamics change the direction of the air flow.

In that case the scoops become indirect sources of increased air induction and are engine compartment temperature lowering devices under most driving conditions, i.e., all but flat out racing conditions.

In my case I am not Walter Mitty. It is very unlikely that I will run ever flat out at LeMans in any vehicle, including my Pantera. Some other Pantera owners may feel otherwise though? Big Grin
-Back to basics

If we’re talking about power potential, we’re really talking about how to increase charge air density. Why? Because it means at a given air fuel ratio you can potentially add more fuel to burn along with that added air and that means more potential power!! Ideal gas law would suggest the increase in density is proportional to the increase in absolute pressure (at constant temperature). It’s also inversely proportional to the increase in absolute temperature (at constant pressure). These are approximations so all you physicists have a cup of copy and settle down. So there are two sources of improved density being discussed in this thread; dynamic pressure (ram air), and air density increases resulting from cooler charge air. So let’s just forget about the practical aspects of harnessing it in a Pantera for a moment and consider (approximations) for what the theoretical potential is for power increases.

As far as increases from dynamic pressure (boost from ram affect), at constant temperature and speeds below 100 mph, you’re probably, well, pissing in the wind fellas. But since dynamic pressure goes as the square of velocity, the discussion can change as you progress up the scale.

So the potential increase in charge air density due to ram affect would be about proportional dynamic pressure increase compared to standard atmospheric pressure (14.7 psi or 29.92 in Hg). So at speed, dynamic pressure, % density increase, you would achieve:

50 mph, .04 psi, .3%
100 mph, .17psi, 1.2%
150 mph, .39psi, 2.6%
200 mph, .69psi, 4.7%

You can play around here. I can’t vouch for the formula or assumptions but it does yield results in the approximately the correct ranges.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/ram-air-calc.php

Are these increases significant? You decide, but in practice, it’s hard to deliver all of this theoretical pressure to the inlet of your induction system.

Now, the other factor, temperature related air density increases, may be more significant for a variety of reasons. If we go back to ideal gas law, at constant pressure, air density is proportional to changes in absolute temperature. For those of us who speak in terms of degrees Fahrenheit, that means the Rankine scale or degrees F + 460. For Celsius guys it’s Kelvin or degrees C + 273. In the case that Will cited in this thread, he indicated that he achieved an 80F drop in charge air temperature (180F to 100F on a 75F day). This is 640R to 560R or (640-560)/640 or 12.5% increase in density. That’s a big deal. I do need to caution that Will didn’t state how he collected the data because if he only measured while the car was standing still, that may not be representative of the improvement he has achieved at different speeds. He’ll have to weigh in on his methodology. But if he is averaging 80F lower inlet temps at all speeds, 12.5% potential power uplift there for the taking is big!

Now let’s get away from theory to reality. As far as the elephant ear and boundary layer discussion, if (and it’s a big if), you can duct air from the ears to the inlet without picking up heat or having pressure drop, you may be able to realize some improvement. I have my doubts. The hose diameter on those ears looks small. What is it? 3.5”-4”? Even though there are two of them, they will create pressure drop which may negate some/all of temp related improvements. This will be exacerbated if they are in the boundary layer, because this will further reduce the inlet pressure at speed because you are drawing from a low pressure zone. But don’t fret guys. For the same reason there is little to be gained from ram air affect, there is likely little to be lost from boundary layer affect. Air filter pressure drop either due to small area or dirty filter is probably comparable to the pressure changes we’re talking here.

Now back to the temperature thing. If a charge air system like Will’s that is roof top actually achieves (sorry Will don’t mean to be a skeptic, it’s my nature) that temperature drop combined with even some Ram affect, that’s kind of exciting. In practice for internal combustion engines, it’s not just the potential benefit in charge density, it’s the fact the charge is then compress before it is ignited. The heat of compression is a stronger function of temperature so reducing inlet temperature can mean more dramatic decreases in compressed temperature in the cylinder, and this means less susceptibility to detonation. If you are a pump gas guy this is of interest because it means you can either run higher compression or more ignition advance if your combo likes it. This is sort of a wild card but can also be significant power increase after tuning. If you have a boosted engine reduced inlet temps (intercooling) are huge because it dictates how much boost can be safely applied.

This subject has sort of been beat to death over the years but most people with street cars have realize 1-6% improvements in power from charge density management, perhaps more when starting with very poorly design systems. In all cases you must be able to tune or have an engine management system that will make the adjustments to take advantage of the potential.

As far as other factors for the Pantera discussion, reducing charge air temperature won’t necessarily mean your engine will run cooler, in fact, probably not because presumably your cooling system can independently maintain engine temperature. If you have a car that lacks sufficient cooling capacity and overheats, it could help potentially provide some marginal help. It’s unlikely it will have any measurable affect on engine compartment or cockpit temperatures. That is driven by the surface area of exhaust and engine and how well the engine compartment is ventilated.

BTW, Rick your mod motor install is one of the nicest I've seen. -Well done.

Best,
K
Last edited by panterror
quote:
Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:
A source for cold-air induction kits & components is Spectre Performance.
They have 44 universal air intake kits, and an array of individual components
allowing a person to also "roll-their-own" kit.

-G


I have my Spectre system picked out already. We are going to use a twin snorkel inlet with the filter in the air box. No photos yet, but this project should be done in a few months.
Some people- David Vizard for one- does nott like corrugated flex tubing connecting ANYTHING in an inlet tract. Reason is, airflow is extremely turbulent and is severely limited thru the corrugations. I think it was Vizard that said the effective air flow thru such connections is less than what a smooth tube that is considerably smaller than the inner diameter of the corrugations would deliver.
It may pay dividends to rejet a carb thats tightly connected by hose to any air scoop. Bonneville runners don't because according to one runner, "it messes up the jetting at high speeds and you burn valves". Factory hood scoops used porous foam to 'connect' their scoops and this may be why. An exhaust temp gauge might show this happening before you lose metal.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Some people- David Vizard for one- does nott like corrugated flex tubing connecting ANYTHING in an inlet tract. Reason is, airflow is extremely turbulent and is severely limited thru the corrugations. I think it was Vizard that said the effective air flow thru such connections is less than what a smooth tube that is considerably smaller than the inner diameter of the corrugations would deliver.
It may pay dividends to rejet a carb thats tightly connected by hose to any air scoop. Bonneville runners don't because according to one runner, "it messes up the jetting at high speeds and you burn valves". Factory hood scoops used porous foam to 'connect' their scoops and this may be why. An exhaust temp gauge might show this happening before you lose metal.


I might look into finding some flex tubing that is not corrugated, but that might be a little had to find. The fuel air ratio will not be a problem because the engine is fuel injected. I think pulling air into the engine from the side of the car is still going to be better than from under the car after it has passed through the radiator.
quote:
Originally posted by Garvino:
I know this system is a little different than the ones being discussed, but here is a link to a Spectre system that Larry Finch put on his car. Larry's Spectre System


I understand what Larry was trying to do, and Spectre does offer some alternatives BUT this is not a cold air system Larry has built. Just the opposite.

I still say, just open the rear windows to atmosphere and leave it ductless. That alone will lower intake air temps.
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by Garvino:
I know this system is a little different than the ones being discussed, but here is a link to a Spectre system that Larry Finch put on his car. Larry's Spectre System


I understand what Larry was trying to do, and Spectre does offer some alternatives BUT this is not a cold air system Larry has built. Just the opposite.

I still say, just open the rear windows to atmosphere and leave it ductless. That alone will lower intake air temps.


The air pressure on the bottom of the car seems to be greater than what can come in from the side windows. There is also a lot more open area on the bottom of the car. I believe that without a sealed air box and ductwork to the side windows, the engine will only pull air in from under the car. I ordered my air box from Spectre today and the side scoops will be installed on the car soon. I will use the Spectre flexable ducting to hook everything up. When the car is running again, I will get some inlet air temperatures from the ECU and compare them to ambient temperature. I think the temperatures are going to be very close if not the same.
Was't it shown that the best source of fresh air was from the roof of the car? Didn't someone adapt a Pontiac Fiero racing roof scoop to a Pantera?

I have to go with what the data Panterror posted on this subject.

All this work and re-engineering for probably only a 1% gain?

I guess all Pantera guy needs some kind of a project to keep him out of trouble?

At least my wife know where I am all the time?
Yes, that's it.
However, doesn't the 73-4 L high deck spoiler do the same thing? I think it does?

Dennis, do you know who's go these roof scoops to sell?

Oh...I want to mount that roll bar on the other side of the engine bulkhead, in the engine compartment.
Anyone know who has done it?
a long time ago Hall had Bob do it for Purple Passion, the targa P he made for Bev.

He had to stiffen the entire chassis anyway so it involved runners in the rocker panels BUT he told me, that it started with his three point interior bar and mounted it in the engine compartment.

Recently I asked Bob this (PanteraProformance) since he is the fabricator that built it. Gary had said the fuel tank needed a small, simple modification to fit the bar.

Bob laughed and said "simple"? He had no interest in building it for me. 20 years ago it was a $3500 Hall price tag. Bev knows nothing about it now. She is the beauty, not the brains of the organization? LOL

If you look at the "factory" race cars, a couple of them show the bar in the engine compartment, with the rear running braces to the rear tubs. Similar to what Ron built into his.

Anyway, know anyone who has done the bar in the engine compartment?
Last edited by panteradoug
I had always thought it would be fun to change and test the boundary layer to trip it into the duct.

When an airplane reaches a high angle of attack (relative to the air flow) airplanes use Vortex Generators to spin the air. The spinning air comes back in contact with the wing and stays in the low pressure instead of separating.






A round object creates far more drag then an airfoil shape and creates a natural turbulent area behind it. Round objects are avoided in aircraft due to the drag created at high speeds:






HOWEVER...I would love to put a row of 3" long tubing the diameter of a pencil up the aft section of the door jam and see if that would not trip the air to bring a positive pressure in a smaller duct.
PanteraDoug,

Re you question about putting the "roll bar" in the engine compartment, you might consider integrating it into your engine bulkhead vs mounting it seperately outside of the bulkhead. You can get the additional interior room but also benefit from a stiffer chassis.

As shown in the pictures below, my cage is actually an integral part of the engine bulkhead/opening.





Re your question about roof scoops, I'm not aware of anyone that sells these, but mine might give you some ideas. It was fabricated to connect to a custom airbox via (4) pipes.



Regards,
Dave
PanteraDoug, your roll bar plan sounds like mine. As a tall guy I want to have all the possible space inside the car. I haven´t really done anything yet, but my Pantera is in pieces and I have had the possibility to see it all and think about it. I just can´t believe, that modificating the gas tank would be such a big job. I don´t even think that you would need any special Pantera place to take care of that. Just an ordinary but good tig-welder, and a little slice taken away from the tank. from the right place, of course.

I also want to keep my rear window. I don´t know, if it is possible to attach the rear window and the sealings from the cabin side, if the roll bar is on the way on the engine side?

Maybe this is coming close to trying to hi-jack a discussion, as the roll bar has very little to do with the fresh air for the engine...
The tank theoretically can be modified with just a hammer to clear a bar post. The issue really as I see it is that you are talking about a 40 year old galvanized steel tank. You really can't weld on it because of the volatility of gas remnants in the tank and there likely is rust or corrosion you will knock loose from the joint in the tanks assembly structure.

The time for me to have done that is when I had the driveline and the tank out. I didn't have the bar at that time and simply stated, I didn't think of it yet.

Personally I am convinced that is the place to put the bar and tie it to the roof structure at that time.

Several people have built a cage leaving the rear window in place and drilling through the glass with a glass bit and bolting it to forward running braces.

I don't want anything in the cabin. It's too tight as it is. All I need is the bar and for me it would work in the engine compartment. Easy to say until you try to do it.
Tjarda was a magician with this car. He fit a lot into very little space without the use of an autocad software program.

I'm thinking that the roll bar in the engine compartment might have to be in two pieces to get it in because of the inner rear tubs?

I don't think anyone minds hi-jacking a thread that has run it's course in one subject and stimulated another that so many are interested in BUT that is the job of the moderator and he could split the thread and move this part to a roll bar thread if thought necessary.

I'm sure George is following this with interest also? Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: I have to go with what the data Panterror posted on this subject.....All this work and re-engineering for probably only a 1% gain?


Keep in mind, what I actually said was most people that had attempted to improve charge air density had achieved 1-6% improvements in practice. This was a generalization about street cars based upon what I have learned from friends and acquaintances that have actually performed the work and measured the result. On my street cars I've always done what was practical and sensible and not worried about measuring the actual performance uplift. In practice, ram improvements are difficult to verify unless you have a fully instrumented car; usually in a racing environment. In general for street cars, ram air is probably not going to get you much but if the average charge air temp is 80F over ambient, that is certainly a nontrivial condition and in theory could represent over ~12% potential improvement due to charge air density alone and potentially more if due to other factors it allows for a higher state of tune to be safely achieved. The point being there is likely more power enhancement to be realized street cars by cooler charge air than ram air if you have excessive rise in charge air temp to begin with. One only needs to put a thermocouple in the inlet of the air filter and go for ride to find out. In competition, wringing every last ounce of performance is the name of the game. On the street, it’s only piece of mind and the value for money proposition can be different.

Best,
Kelly
Doug, re the big rear window and a cage, a few owners have taken the easy way out and simply used a plastic rear window, which drills with a hole saw. Federal law says that IF glass is used in side and rear windows, it must be tempered. But plastic is not specifically illegal. AS far as protection in the event of a fire, it seems the rear glass shatters immediately on contact with a flame anyway, so its of no more protection than plastic. The only place I know where plastic rear windows are illegal is at Bonneville. PPC-Carson City has UV-stabilized Lucite rear windows in stock for street cars mostly as a cost savings, but there's a substantial weight savings, too.
quote:
Originally posted by Panterror:
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug: I have to go with what the data Panterror posted on this subject.....All this work and re-engineering for probably only a 1% gain?


Keep in mind, what I actually said was most people that had attempted to improve charge air density had achieved 1-6% improvements in practice. This was a generalization about street cars based upon what I have learned from friends and acquaintances that have actually performed the work and measured the result. On my street cars I've always done what was practical and sensible and not worried about measuring the actual performance uplift. In practice, ram improvements are difficult to verify unless you have a fully instrumented car; usually in a racing environment. In general for street cars, ram air is probably not going to get you much but if the average charge air temp is 80F over ambient, that is certainly a nontrivial condition and in theory could represent over ~12% potential improvement due to charge air density alone and potentially more if due to other factors it allows for a higher state of tune to be safely achieved. The point being there is likely more power enhancement to be realized street cars by cooler charge air than ram air if you have excessive rise in charge air temp to begin with. One only needs to put a thermocouple in the inlet of the air filter and go for ride to find out. In competition, wringing every last ounce of performance is the name of the game. On the street, it’s only piece of mind and the value for money proposition can be different.

Best,
Kelly


Even if it is 6% net gain, these horses are getting really expensive.
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Doug, re the big rear window and a cage, a few owners have taken the easy way out and simply used a plastic rear window, which drills with a hole saw. Federal law says that IF glass is used in side and rear windows, it must be tempered. But plastic is not specifically illegal. AS far as protection in the event of a fire, it seems the rear glass shatters immediately on contact with a flame anyway, so its of no more protection than plastic. The only place I know where plastic rear windows are illegal is at Bonneville. PPC-Carson City has UV-stabilized Lucite rear windows in stock for street cars mostly as a cost savings, but there's a substantial weight savings, too.


Yes, I have seen plexiglass or I think it is correctly referred to as carbonite.
So if I'm reading this correctly a fresh air intake via a simple side scoop .. with a negative pressure ( because the intake stroke of a ICE internal combustion engine sucks air IN ) produces between 1-6% increase in horse power with only a 200.00 scoop, a 50.00 flex = 25HP .. i consider this the best money ever spent ... because in drag racing it cost 1000.00 per tenth. here we did it for 250.00.
The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron


Weight is like buying things. We all talk about how cheap we got some things for but never mention how we over paid for other things.
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
The rear window LEXAN by DUPONT is an acceptable fire retardant material to be used as a WINDOW on the side and rear of a race vehicle ... is it acceptable on the street ? The laws don't exclude it and the weight savings is sure worth it.

With all this talk about roll cages for rigidity ... keeps me awake thing how I'm going to recoup this weight I added .. LOL

Ron


LOL! The weight you save with your Lexan offsets the cage and the cold air induction compensates for the lost acceleration. How many 1/10ths is 25hp? Hum? I wonder?

That's funny. The NYS trooper that pulled me over just the other day was commenting on my 1/4 mile trap speed. The trap he set in which I was speeding? LOL.

Like I said, it's all fun cause it keeps us All out of trouble...well normally any way? Big Grin
One of the reasons why I was thinking about putting the roll bar to the engine side is, that no holes through the window would be needed at all.

About the gas tank modification, I was not thinking about those 40 year old tanks. That just did not come into my mind. I had my own new Hall Pantera stainless steel tank in my mind, and I was thinking about how very easy it would be to modify that. And that really looks easy.
quote:
Originally posted by kimmosch:
One of the reasons why I was thinking about putting the roll bar to the engine side is, that no holes through the window would be needed at all.

About the gas tank modification, I was not thinking about those 40 year old tanks. That just did not come into my mind. I had my own new Hall Pantera stainless steel tank in my mind, and I was thinking about how very easy it would be to modify that. And that really looks easy.


I would love to see any and all of the details on that installation. If you go ahead with it post the pictures please and the source of the parts.
I suspect that there would be enough interest for a fabricator to build much more then one set up to sell to us.
I would be interested.
OK, let’s try this one more time.
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD: On an average July early evening (75*), I was getting 180* inlet temps on my laptop. I now rarely see the temp go above 100*. Will

Since Will actually has an EFI system with an ECU that senses inlet air temp, he certainly has my attention.

To me, the point is without doubt, an ~80F drop in average inlet air temp is a 12.9% improvement in terms of absolute temperature. That should present a real life opportunity for a comparable gain in charge air density, thus power. Perhaps not over the engine dyno reading, but certainly over the previous in-car condition. Furthermore, if you’re on the edge of how much advance you can run on the ignition curve due to compression ratio and pump gas limitations, it may also represent the opportunity to pick up some more power as these combinations often like more ignition advance than can be tolerated at lower compression and octane levels. There is at least one member that has commented on this thread with a boosted engine, and as I mentioned, it’s an even bigger deal in boosted engines.

Between 50 mph and 150 mph there is only 0.3%-2.6% of similar potential due to Ram Air affect. Does that frame it? So irrespective of method, if your charge air is 100F over ambient, charge air temp management is material in a street driven Pantera. Ram Air is not.

When I remarked in my previous post that most only realize 1-6% improvements from charge air scheme mods, this depends upon your starting point, and I can assure you that most cars don’t start with conditions that average 105F over ambient temperature; maybe at idle but not in the moving car.

Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them and this is certainly true in Panteras. In Will’s case, he also has 180s and that will definitely add to the need to manage charge air temp, which he appears to have attended to in exemplary fashion.

So considering the $dough and effort typically spent in engine building to realize % power gains, it’s certainly not productive to give back >10% on charge air temp without a fight because of in-car conditions.

Best,
K
quote:
Originally posted by kimmosch:
PanteraDoug, If I will proceed with these plans, I promise to show the results. However, it will take some time, as I will do it myself and without any earlier experience about roll bars. And the whole car has to be fixed also...


I am always interested to see what others have done, any time.

I think though that you need to decide whether or not it is a roll bar or a full cage.

With the entire car apart, that is the time to play with these ideas.

I'd lend you my Hall 3 point but I sold it to Pushbutton and he welded the thing in.

Considering where that one fits in the cabin, it might fit on the other side of the bulkhead also. It has the same profile.

The big unknown is the fuel tank fit/no fit thing?
quote:
Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them


I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
quote:
Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them


I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will


I did the same basic test with the exact same results. I was using an engine screen that had the center section raised about three inches for air cleaner clearance. As soon as the car would move the streamers would go straight out. No question about where all the hot air was coming from and how hot the inlet air temperature was on a 100 degree day in the desert. The only way to get cool air into the engine is to duct it into a seal air box.
quote:
Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
quote:
Mid engine cars have a lot of advantages, but heat management is not always among them


I put some yarn on my rear hatch opening (about 4" below the top). The air clearly exits through the rear opening. So where does it come from? It comes from below the engine area. Passing through around the engine and headers. Even if you leave the rear quarters open ( I did), it makes only a marginal difference. The cold air must be ducted in to benefit from a much lower charge temp.
Will


Thanks Will. That's very useful information. We'll see what I've got when the new mill is in the car. There's plenty to do ahead of that but given the similarities, sounds like I'll have an additional project in my future.

Best,
K
I have this setup on my car but didn't drive it before I put these on so I can't say what type of difference it made. I want to replace the corrugated intake tubing. This is a Spectre air cleaner.
http://i744.photobucket.com/al...led/garage_Pant3.jpg
Initially I did the same thing with a Ram Air Box. It used a standard size air filter while the Spectre unit uses a smaller filter supplied with the air cleaner assembly.
This is the Ram Air Box setup.
Very interesting. It is ironic that Spectre does make air cleaners that will fit under the screen but because of the location of the fresh air intake that still doesn't solve the problem unless you go under the car.

I'm still not convinced that is the right place to go with the ducts. Just the only place if you still want to retain the stock screen and duct cold air in?
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Very interesting. It is ironic that Spectre does make air cleaners that will fit under the screen but because of the location of the fresh air intake that still doesn't solve the problem unless you go under the car.

I'm still not convinced that is the right place to go with the ducts. Just the only place if you still want to retain the stock screen and duct cold air in?

It's the most convenient, by far, and does the job with cold air. Not much room to go below and much more difficult to go out the back opening.
Will
I been looking into the spectre closed box system too. I wan't to fit it UNDER the engine screen as I try to stay with the original look on my car.

They have a dropped base version that should do the trick (2.4" total height over the carb flange) even with the air gap manifold on my engine, but the question is where to pick up the fresh air if I can't take it from the side windows (don't wan't to) or from under the car.

Has anybody thought about getting the air through the top of the splash shields in the rear wheel wells.

Some header heat may exit through there but the air could be a lot cooler there than anywhere in the enginebay ??
I have, Push. I think a viable area is behind the rear wheel in the dead zone between the outer skin & the inner fender panel. That's where my ducts will be routed, even though it means punching a hole in the inner fender panel. And for those using flex hoses for feeding air boxes, a 4" ID corrugated hose flows total air pretty close to a 3" ID smooth tube. Those corrugations really upset air flow.
Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×