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That's correct. The 'factory' cars are incredibly rare; even rarer are the three based on Pantera SI coupe bodies.... They were all built for DeTomaso at Carrozeria Pavesi in Modena, starting with a Gt5-S coupe. I've not had the pleasure of seeing one personally, but I'm told they weigh somewhat more than a std GT5-S due to all the internal bracing necessary to keep the monococque from flexing without a roof. Roland Jaeckel in Germany had a GT5-S Targa, as did Franz Krump (Pantera SI-Targa).
That car is drop dead gorgeous! The targa top emphasizes to me how small this car really is.
I see it more in the targa then in the coupe.

I thought the targa got an engine compartment roll bar attached to the roof structure there and an internal pipe that runs through the rockers and bolts up to the front and rear tubs and the roll bar?

The front inner fender tub becomes a stressed structural member to the chassis.

I think the problem with that design was and is "spring boarding" because of the loss of the roof? The roof panels squeak with even with the additional bracing.

I have my doubts the targas can really be driven hard or have high mileage on their chassis without serious issues.

Actually the Mustang convertibles flex more. They are very noisy cars to drive because of all the body squeaks due to the flexing though. Another car that you really can't drive hard as a result.

This targa is a beautiful car though for sure.
I'm learning something everyday on this forum.

I've seen an orange targa once in Germany but I thought it was a chopped GTS 5.

I like the car but it's outside my league right now and if I were to buy it I would repaint it and get rid of the wing.

Somebody made a really good investment in the 80's because I think that they will get the money they want.
not that important, but i could buy my GT5S from somebody out of his collection just because he bought the same red one in targa version... as far i remember there was always spoken about 17 targa's ever build. And they "could" know it , as they have ALL Detomaso models beside ofcourse many other brands... OK, 14 or 17... very nice cars ! and perhaps not so race-worthy due chassis flex , the more enjoyable for our normal summer cruising ... Smiler..IF you can afford it Frowner
quote:
This is one of the few Pavesi GT5-S Targas and is in NY:


That's Michael's Car. He some times post on this site .. he ahs a lot of information on these cars.

From memory I remember a flat plate steel he had pointed out, vertical running front to back parallel to the rocker panel and don't remember any roll cage or tubular steel material in the engine compartment or otherwise.

I think he is in Connecticut now.

Ron
In this shot of Michael's car, you can see the one of the big girders underneath (as well as the Pavesi badge just behind the driver's door). I can't see any special 'roll bar' in the shots I have, but maybe they did a good job of blending it into the car.

Beautiful machine!

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Wow, That's some railroad iron under there.

I never had the pleasure of seeing a "real" Targa in person.

I'll try to post what I have of the chassis modifications that Hall did for his. I presumed that he just copied a real car.

I enjoy learning here. I have no problem in posting a misconception and having it smoke out others who prefer to sit in the background until they choose to contribute and make a correction. Works for me.

I'm told that one needs to make mistakes in order to learn. If that is so,I should be past the Albert Einstein level by now considering the mistakes I have and continue to make. Wink

The Targa is a fascinating car and one thing that I have already learned is that the GT5S cars have to be seen in person to grasp their beauty.

Pictures although breathtaking, don't do them justice.

Thanks to those who have posted pictures. It is probably as close as I ever will get to one in reality.
I have heard the name but have never met him or seen the car.

When Hall did his, he added an integral roll bar to the engine compartment attached to the roof at that point and added steel 2x3's inserting them inside of the hollow rocker panels.

At least I saw pictures of steel tubes with steel flanges bolted through into the front wheel tubes, but then again I saw aluminum I beams with lightening holes in them too. Maybe the steel was used for a pattern to then have a fabricator make them up in aluminum? Good question. I'd like to see the final components that he put in the car(s) but even so, it's academic?

I do believe that at one time he listed this as a kit in one of the catalogs? I have two of the full color catalogs but can't find them. Maybe my memory fails me on this and it was in one of those color mailing brochures he would always send out?

Hard to keep up with his activities.

The roll bar wasn't the normal round tubing, it was an aluminum I bar drilled with lightening holes.

The beams concealed in the rockers had lightening holes drilled in them like an airplane would. They may have even have been aluminum also, come to think of it, but don't remember for sure? This must have been around 1992 or so?

They had flanges where they bolted through to the front inner fender wells and the roll bar bolted through to them in the engine compartment.

In the front of the cabin under the dash, it had a "loop" tube that went from the left to the right of the car, with reinforcing tubes rising into the pillars of the windshield.

I just presumed that he was copying the "factory" solution to stiffening the car? I was only paying half-attention to this since I had my own interests.

Apparently he didn't and it was his own unique solution, and when I saw it, a work in progress, because it definitely wasn't finished yet.

For one thing they were struggling with the details of how to attach the roof panels AND Gary was toying with the idea of glass panels like the Corvettes had but he told me he was afraid of how expensive they would be to have made?

I was on the phone with him at the time two or three times a week for parts.

I know he built the one car and I want to say he told me he was building two. I just don't remember now for sure.

Personally I see no point in asking Bev the details. Gary was always the only one that would talk about those. There are those now that will tell you he would "fabricate" details (make up stories) but he always sent me 35mm pictures of the cars under construction because I was interested and seemed to understand what he was doing. Who knew to keep them filed?

I had the pictures of the car under construction but can't find them now...of course!

Gary's answer was always, "come on out and I'll show you what we are doing...you'll love it".

I see the "railroad iron" hanging down on the factory version. I think I'm mis-interpreting what I'm seeing in the pictures?

They couldn't possibly have added the beam under, like some of the drag racers did, there wouldn't be enough room for street clearance.

That must be an external addition to the stock rocker arms? Makes the Targa a unique configuration. Very interesting solution.

Gary also told me that even with all of the reinforcing the tops still rattled and moaned like crazy and he'd never do another one again.

Maybe the "factory" solution fixed that?

It can't possibly twist, buck and rattle like a factory Mustang convertible? Those are like driving a spring board.

Just driving a 69 GT500 down the street at 30 mph, the rear view mirror would bounce all over the place.

I had a customer with a '73 Mustang convertible. It had a problem where if you opened the doors the car would sag in the middle. Sent it to Eastern Mustang in Poughkeepsie to rebuild it. Was about $8000 to repair it in 1980.

I remember mentioning building the Targa to Mike Cook and he just moaned and said he didn't want to talk about it? LOL.

Last year I asked Bob at Precision Proformance if he would build the engine compartment roll bar for me and he said "no way, good luck pal!"

I get the impression those two hate the Hall car(s), do you think? LOL!

I don't know if someone bought them or they disappeared off of a cliff into a revine in Barstow maybe? roll on floor

I haven't seen pictures of the Hall car in something like 20 years. I don't remember ever seeing it finished, just all in different patches of primer because of the big fenders being patched on, but the Pink Panther is still there I do believe? Let's face it, not many would want a pink car?

Whenever I mention my car to my brother in law he always says "you know if you paint your's pink, people will think your a little...funny...you know?" I always want to reply, "no s..t dips..t!" But after all, he is married...still, to my sister...now you're a little "funny too"? Big Grin
Last edited by panteradoug
Seems a strange & rather crude modification adding those massive rails under the car.
I would have thought that a better solution was to remove the rockers & either run an internal section of Chrome moly tube, or fabricate a Chrome moly lattice structure space frame to fit within the rockers.
Also, I would have doubted the ability of the Pantera roof to add a great deal of stiffness to the car.
The front pillars are very flimsy & the windscreen is not bonded in like a modern car to aid stiffness.
Recently we removed all of the paint around the bottom of the front pillars, only to find both pillars are cracked through the pressings both sides.
Although the paint was only cracked on one side, could be the original lead filling at the join allowing for the flex?
Anyway, we reinforced this area by cutting out the lead & the cracked sheet metal, welding two sections of 26x6mm flat bar up inside the pillar & down onto the top of the door post, the flatbar forms an L section.
The flatbar sections are plug welded into the pillar sheet metal & the ends of the flatbar fully welded to the door post.
Then re-wrapped in sheet metal to the original shape where it was cut away.
Stronger than the original, but still it’s an area that could do with added strength.

Regards,
Tony.
I agree Tony. That's what Hall did...essentially.

This car is way to low for me. I'd never get it into my driveway or even over the curb into the gas stations here.

I'll bet that if you make a fist, you won't get it under the car vertically, you have to turn it horizontally to clear that chassis?

These things were made for show, not go. Good thing they're pretty. Wink


This is Pat's contact information.

Pat Mical
60 Middlesex Rd, Tyngsboro, MA. 01879


His website:
http://www.patsauto.com/


Not close to me.
Last edited by panteradoug
I can remember a few such conversions. Note that both Don & Bobby Byars and Mike Cook all worked for Hall at one time, and may have had to work on the targa conversions, which might explain their reaction to doing it again. Welding on the early bodies for just the GT5-S fenders is around 30 FEET of TIG work. Then the bodywork starts. Stiffening would be at least as complex & might need a braced rotisserie.
So-Cal's Don Welch had the first Targa-Pantera built in the early '80s with a big-block FE installed. Don said until they stiffened the chassis enough (several attempts), both doors would open when you punched the throttle... chassis flex, indeed. At the Monterey Historics a few years back, there was a (Hall-built?) Pantera Roadster shown- owned by "Halloran"? Can't quite remember but there were photos all over at the time. Even the half-roof left in the Targas apparently helped with stiffness but this car had that removed as well. It no longer looked like Tjaarda's design; resembled the Mangusta Roadster in profile. To each his own....
I like to think that I can be objective about a design, a person, a novel, even though I might not like it, I can respect and appreciate a unique perspective.

The Targa comes off much better then a car like the previous generation of Camaro, not this one, that never had a convertible version as a consideration but none the less someone felt the need to do it.

Esthetically it is pleaseing and although a far departure from the original conception, comes off well.

The flared cars were not part of the original concept either and yet they were transformed rather well.

Maybe I'd have to vote by saying that I don't think I would want to own one. I get the distinct impression that it is intended to be too much of a pretty boy and I'm looking for an exotic street fighter.
...I personally think the GT5S Targa is a very nice car. The structure of adding the steel plate vertically the length of the rocker adds a substantial amount of strength and weight also.

My 79 EMBO Coach built car has a rectangular frame and a restructured Monque body and the entire floor pan dropped 4". The strength as compared to my 73 is unmatched ... I can jack the car from one corner and the car rises up level similar to a full caged car ... a far superior structure compared to the std L model ...I will see if I can scrape up some pictures.

Ron
quote:
It no longer looked like Tjaarda's design; resembled the Mangusta Roadster in profile. To each his own....


I have to agree with you BOSS, I don't think it looks quite right on the Pantera either. Any mod to the flow of the roof into the decklid is wrong IMO. That flow is what makes the Pantera so cool looking IMO. I do appreciate the work but don't think it is right on the Pantera. I agree, to each his own...
I would also agree with that.
There are some distinct styling cues the Pantera has that you don't want to mess with, the roof line is one of those.
On the other hand I think there are points in the styling that can be accentuated. & made to look better, or at least tougher.
The wide arse is one of them.
Fatter rear wheels & tubbed out GR4 style flares in my opinion makes the Pantera look more aggressive & purposeful.
When you see a GR4 you feel that it looks serious & designed to go hard.
But you must be careful with the front flares as if they stick out too far & the front wheels don’t have sufficient dish & the wheels recessed in too far then it makes the Pantera look like a funny car, and that’s not a cool at all for a serious sports car.
Personally I’m not a fan of the GT5 or GT5S, the squared profile front & rear fender arches are not as pretty as the GT4 more circular profile.
Although I like the radiused off fenders of the GT5S, they don’t match the existing sharpe lines of the rear decklid & thus it doesn’t flow.
The flutes in the rear fender of the GT5S make the car too busy & upset the fluid simple lines.
The worst feature of all is the addition of the “ground effects” mouldings under the rockers on the GT5, a very 80’s styling cue, but does not stand the test of time.
But hey, they are only my musings & I’m sure & understand that many would disagree.

Regards,
Tony
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