Did De Tomaso ever make factory targas from the GT5-S series.
There is a car for sale in Germany and the seller claims that this one of 14 factory build Targas.
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That's correct. The 'factory' cars are incredibly rare; even rarer are the three based on Pantera SI coupe bodies.... They were all built for DeTomaso at Carrozeria Pavesi in Modena, starting with a Gt5-S coupe. I've not had the pleasure of seeing one personally, but I'm told they weigh somewhat more than a std GT5-S due to all the internal bracing necessary to keep the monococque from flexing without a roof. Roland Jaeckel in Germany had a GT5-S Targa, as did Franz Krump (Pantera SI-Targa).
This is one of the few Pavesi GT5-S Targas and is in NY:
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quote:Originally posted by ALFA4FUN:
There is a car for sale in Germany and the seller claims that this one of 14 factory build Targas.
Can you post a link to it?
Answered my own question/request; GT5S Targa for sale
Julian
what year is this car and can it be imported to the usa?
That car is drop dead gorgeous! The targa top emphasizes to me how small this car really is.
I see it more in the targa then in the coupe.
I thought the targa got an engine compartment roll bar attached to the roof structure there and an internal pipe that runs through the rockers and bolts up to the front and rear tubs and the roll bar?
The front inner fender tub becomes a stressed structural member to the chassis.
I think the problem with that design was and is "spring boarding" because of the loss of the roof? The roof panels squeak with even with the additional bracing.
I have my doubts the targas can really be driven hard or have high mileage on their chassis without serious issues.
Actually the Mustang convertibles flex more. They are very noisy cars to drive because of all the body squeaks due to the flexing though. Another car that you really can't drive hard as a result.
This targa is a beautiful car though for sure.
I see it more in the targa then in the coupe.
I thought the targa got an engine compartment roll bar attached to the roof structure there and an internal pipe that runs through the rockers and bolts up to the front and rear tubs and the roll bar?
The front inner fender tub becomes a stressed structural member to the chassis.
I think the problem with that design was and is "spring boarding" because of the loss of the roof? The roof panels squeak with even with the additional bracing.
I have my doubts the targas can really be driven hard or have high mileage on their chassis without serious issues.
Actually the Mustang convertibles flex more. They are very noisy cars to drive because of all the body squeaks due to the flexing though. Another car that you really can't drive hard as a result.
This targa is a beautiful car though for sure.
I'm learning something everyday on this forum.
I've seen an orange targa once in Germany but I thought it was a chopped GTS 5.
I like the car but it's outside my league right now and if I were to buy it I would repaint it and get rid of the wing.
Somebody made a really good investment in the 80's because I think that they will get the money they want.
I've seen an orange targa once in Germany but I thought it was a chopped GTS 5.
I like the car but it's outside my league right now and if I were to buy it I would repaint it and get rid of the wing.
Somebody made a really good investment in the 80's because I think that they will get the money they want.
not that important, but i could buy my GT5S from somebody out of his collection just because he bought the same red one in targa version... as far i remember there was always spoken about 17 targa's ever build. And they "could" know it , as they have ALL Detomaso models beside ofcourse many other brands... OK, 14 or 17... very nice cars ! and perhaps not so race-worthy due chassis flex , the more enjoyable for our normal summer cruising ... 
..IF you can afford it 
..IF you can afford it quote:This is one of the few Pavesi GT5-S Targas and is in NY:
That's Michael's Car. He some times post on this site .. he ahs a lot of information on these cars.
From memory I remember a flat plate steel he had pointed out, vertical running front to back parallel to the rocker panel and don't remember any roll cage or tubular steel material in the engine compartment or otherwise.
I think he is in Connecticut now.
Ron
In this shot of Michael's car, you can see the one of the big girders underneath (as well as the Pavesi badge just behind the driver's door). I can't see any special 'roll bar' in the shots I have, but maybe they did a good job of blending it into the car.
Beautiful machine!
Beautiful machine!
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Wow, That's some railroad iron under there.
I never had the pleasure of seeing a "real" Targa in person.
I'll try to post what I have of the chassis modifications that Hall did for his. I presumed that he just copied a real car.
I enjoy learning here. I have no problem in posting a misconception and having it smoke out others who prefer to sit in the background until they choose to contribute and make a correction. Works for me.
I'm told that one needs to make mistakes in order to learn. If that is so,I should be past the Albert Einstein level by now considering the mistakes I have and continue to make.
The Targa is a fascinating car and one thing that I have already learned is that the GT5S cars have to be seen in person to grasp their beauty.
Pictures although breathtaking, don't do them justice.
Thanks to those who have posted pictures. It is probably as close as I ever will get to one in reality.
I never had the pleasure of seeing a "real" Targa in person.
I'll try to post what I have of the chassis modifications that Hall did for his. I presumed that he just copied a real car.
I enjoy learning here. I have no problem in posting a misconception and having it smoke out others who prefer to sit in the background until they choose to contribute and make a correction. Works for me.
I'm told that one needs to make mistakes in order to learn. If that is so,I should be past the Albert Einstein level by now considering the mistakes I have and continue to make.
The Targa is a fascinating car and one thing that I have already learned is that the GT5S cars have to be seen in person to grasp their beauty.
Pictures although breathtaking, don't do them justice.
Thanks to those who have posted pictures. It is probably as close as I ever will get to one in reality.
" I never had the pleasure of seeing a "real" Targa in person."
Doug .. I think your closer to Michael then any of us ... so when he chimes in I;m sure hell swing by and show you ..the car is a real beauty.
I will email Michael and ask him to chime in with some pics.
Ron
Doug .. I think your closer to Michael then any of us ... so when he chimes in I;m sure hell swing by and show you ..the car is a real beauty.
I will email Michael and ask him to chime in with some pics.
Ron
I have heard the name but have never met him or seen the car.
When Hall did his, he added an integral roll bar to the engine compartment attached to the roof at that point and added steel 2x3's inserting them inside of the hollow rocker panels.
At least I saw pictures of steel tubes with steel flanges bolted through into the front wheel tubes, but then again I saw aluminum I beams with lightening holes in them too. Maybe the steel was used for a pattern to then have a fabricator make them up in aluminum? Good question. I'd like to see the final components that he put in the car(s) but even so, it's academic?
I do believe that at one time he listed this as a kit in one of the catalogs? I have two of the full color catalogs but can't find them. Maybe my memory fails me on this and it was in one of those color mailing brochures he would always send out?
Hard to keep up with his activities.
The roll bar wasn't the normal round tubing, it was an aluminum I bar drilled with lightening holes.
The beams concealed in the rockers had lightening holes drilled in them like an airplane would. They may have even have been aluminum also, come to think of it, but don't remember for sure? This must have been around 1992 or so?
They had flanges where they bolted through to the front inner fender wells and the roll bar bolted through to them in the engine compartment.
In the front of the cabin under the dash, it had a "loop" tube that went from the left to the right of the car, with reinforcing tubes rising into the pillars of the windshield.
I just presumed that he was copying the "factory" solution to stiffening the car? I was only paying half-attention to this since I had my own interests.
Apparently he didn't and it was his own unique solution, and when I saw it, a work in progress, because it definitely wasn't finished yet.
For one thing they were struggling with the details of how to attach the roof panels AND Gary was toying with the idea of glass panels like the Corvettes had but he told me he was afraid of how expensive they would be to have made?
I was on the phone with him at the time two or three times a week for parts.
I know he built the one car and I want to say he told me he was building two. I just don't remember now for sure.
Personally I see no point in asking Bev the details. Gary was always the only one that would talk about those. There are those now that will tell you he would "fabricate" details (make up stories) but he always sent me 35mm pictures of the cars under construction because I was interested and seemed to understand what he was doing. Who knew to keep them filed?
I had the pictures of the car under construction but can't find them now...of course!
Gary's answer was always, "come on out and I'll show you what we are doing...you'll love it".
I see the "railroad iron" hanging down on the factory version. I think I'm mis-interpreting what I'm seeing in the pictures?
They couldn't possibly have added the beam under, like some of the drag racers did, there wouldn't be enough room for street clearance.
That must be an external addition to the stock rocker arms? Makes the Targa a unique configuration. Very interesting solution.
Gary also told me that even with all of the reinforcing the tops still rattled and moaned like crazy and he'd never do another one again.
Maybe the "factory" solution fixed that?
It can't possibly twist, buck and rattle like a factory Mustang convertible? Those are like driving a spring board.
Just driving a 69 GT500 down the street at 30 mph, the rear view mirror would bounce all over the place.
I had a customer with a '73 Mustang convertible. It had a problem where if you opened the doors the car would sag in the middle. Sent it to Eastern Mustang in Poughkeepsie to rebuild it. Was about $8000 to repair it in 1980.
I remember mentioning building the Targa to Mike Cook and he just moaned and said he didn't want to talk about it? LOL.
Last year I asked Bob at Precision Proformance if he would build the engine compartment roll bar for me and he said "no way, good luck pal!"
I get the impression those two hate the Hall car(s), do you think? LOL!
I don't know if someone bought them or they disappeared off of a cliff into a revine in Barstow maybe?
I haven't seen pictures of the Hall car in something like 20 years. I don't remember ever seeing it finished, just all in different patches of primer because of the big fenders being patched on, but the Pink Panther is still there I do believe? Let's face it, not many would want a pink car?
Whenever I mention my car to my brother in law he always says "you know if you paint your's pink, people will think your a little...funny...you know?" I always want to reply, "no s..t dips..t!" But after all, he is married...still, to my sister...now you're a little "funny too"?
When Hall did his, he added an integral roll bar to the engine compartment attached to the roof at that point and added steel 2x3's inserting them inside of the hollow rocker panels.
At least I saw pictures of steel tubes with steel flanges bolted through into the front wheel tubes, but then again I saw aluminum I beams with lightening holes in them too. Maybe the steel was used for a pattern to then have a fabricator make them up in aluminum? Good question. I'd like to see the final components that he put in the car(s) but even so, it's academic?
I do believe that at one time he listed this as a kit in one of the catalogs? I have two of the full color catalogs but can't find them. Maybe my memory fails me on this and it was in one of those color mailing brochures he would always send out?
Hard to keep up with his activities.
The roll bar wasn't the normal round tubing, it was an aluminum I bar drilled with lightening holes.
The beams concealed in the rockers had lightening holes drilled in them like an airplane would. They may have even have been aluminum also, come to think of it, but don't remember for sure? This must have been around 1992 or so?
They had flanges where they bolted through to the front inner fender wells and the roll bar bolted through to them in the engine compartment.
In the front of the cabin under the dash, it had a "loop" tube that went from the left to the right of the car, with reinforcing tubes rising into the pillars of the windshield.
I just presumed that he was copying the "factory" solution to stiffening the car? I was only paying half-attention to this since I had my own interests.
Apparently he didn't and it was his own unique solution, and when I saw it, a work in progress, because it definitely wasn't finished yet.
For one thing they were struggling with the details of how to attach the roof panels AND Gary was toying with the idea of glass panels like the Corvettes had but he told me he was afraid of how expensive they would be to have made?
I was on the phone with him at the time two or three times a week for parts.
I know he built the one car and I want to say he told me he was building two. I just don't remember now for sure.
Personally I see no point in asking Bev the details. Gary was always the only one that would talk about those. There are those now that will tell you he would "fabricate" details (make up stories) but he always sent me 35mm pictures of the cars under construction because I was interested and seemed to understand what he was doing. Who knew to keep them filed?
I had the pictures of the car under construction but can't find them now...of course!
Gary's answer was always, "come on out and I'll show you what we are doing...you'll love it".
I see the "railroad iron" hanging down on the factory version. I think I'm mis-interpreting what I'm seeing in the pictures?
They couldn't possibly have added the beam under, like some of the drag racers did, there wouldn't be enough room for street clearance.
That must be an external addition to the stock rocker arms? Makes the Targa a unique configuration. Very interesting solution.
Gary also told me that even with all of the reinforcing the tops still rattled and moaned like crazy and he'd never do another one again.
Maybe the "factory" solution fixed that?
It can't possibly twist, buck and rattle like a factory Mustang convertible? Those are like driving a spring board.
Just driving a 69 GT500 down the street at 30 mph, the rear view mirror would bounce all over the place.
I had a customer with a '73 Mustang convertible. It had a problem where if you opened the doors the car would sag in the middle. Sent it to Eastern Mustang in Poughkeepsie to rebuild it. Was about $8000 to repair it in 1980.
I remember mentioning building the Targa to Mike Cook and he just moaned and said he didn't want to talk about it? LOL.
Last year I asked Bob at Precision Proformance if he would build the engine compartment roll bar for me and he said "no way, good luck pal!"
I get the impression those two hate the Hall car(s), do you think? LOL!
I don't know if someone bought them or they disappeared off of a cliff into a revine in Barstow maybe?
I haven't seen pictures of the Hall car in something like 20 years. I don't remember ever seeing it finished, just all in different patches of primer because of the big fenders being patched on, but the Pink Panther is still there I do believe? Let's face it, not many would want a pink car?
Whenever I mention my car to my brother in law he always says "you know if you paint your's pink, people will think your a little...funny...you know?" I always want to reply, "no s..t dips..t!" But after all, he is married...still, to my sister...now you're a little "funny too"?
Seems a strange & rather crude modification adding those massive rails under the car.
I would have thought that a better solution was to remove the rockers & either run an internal section of Chrome moly tube, or fabricate a Chrome moly lattice structure space frame to fit within the rockers.
Also, I would have doubted the ability of the Pantera roof to add a great deal of stiffness to the car.
The front pillars are very flimsy & the windscreen is not bonded in like a modern car to aid stiffness.
Recently we removed all of the paint around the bottom of the front pillars, only to find both pillars are cracked through the pressings both sides.
Although the paint was only cracked on one side, could be the original lead filling at the join allowing for the flex?
Anyway, we reinforced this area by cutting out the lead & the cracked sheet metal, welding two sections of 26x6mm flat bar up inside the pillar & down onto the top of the door post, the flatbar forms an L section.
The flatbar sections are plug welded into the pillar sheet metal & the ends of the flatbar fully welded to the door post.
Then re-wrapped in sheet metal to the original shape where it was cut away.
Stronger than the original, but still it’s an area that could do with added strength.
Regards,
Tony.
I would have thought that a better solution was to remove the rockers & either run an internal section of Chrome moly tube, or fabricate a Chrome moly lattice structure space frame to fit within the rockers.
Also, I would have doubted the ability of the Pantera roof to add a great deal of stiffness to the car.
The front pillars are very flimsy & the windscreen is not bonded in like a modern car to aid stiffness.
Recently we removed all of the paint around the bottom of the front pillars, only to find both pillars are cracked through the pressings both sides.
Although the paint was only cracked on one side, could be the original lead filling at the join allowing for the flex?
Anyway, we reinforced this area by cutting out the lead & the cracked sheet metal, welding two sections of 26x6mm flat bar up inside the pillar & down onto the top of the door post, the flatbar forms an L section.
The flatbar sections are plug welded into the pillar sheet metal & the ends of the flatbar fully welded to the door post.
Then re-wrapped in sheet metal to the original shape where it was cut away.
Stronger than the original, but still it’s an area that could do with added strength.
Regards,
Tony.
I agree Tony. That's what Hall did...essentially.
This car is way to low for me. I'd never get it into my driveway or even over the curb into the gas stations here.
I'll bet that if you make a fist, you won't get it under the car vertically, you have to turn it horizontally to clear that chassis?
These things were made for show, not go. Good thing they're pretty.
This is Pat's contact information.
Pat Mical
60 Middlesex Rd, Tyngsboro, MA. 01879
His website:
http://www.patsauto.com/
Not close to me.
This car is way to low for me. I'd never get it into my driveway or even over the curb into the gas stations here.
I'll bet that if you make a fist, you won't get it under the car vertically, you have to turn it horizontally to clear that chassis?
These things were made for show, not go. Good thing they're pretty.
This is Pat's contact information.
Pat Mical
60 Middlesex Rd, Tyngsboro, MA. 01879
His website:
http://www.patsauto.com/
Not close to me.
I can remember a few such conversions. Note that both Don & Bobby Byars and Mike Cook all worked for Hall at one time, and may have had to work on the targa conversions, which might explain their reaction to doing it again. Welding on the early bodies for just the GT5-S fenders is around 30 FEET of TIG work. Then the bodywork starts. Stiffening would be at least as complex & might need a braced rotisserie.
So-Cal's Don Welch had the first Targa-Pantera built in the early '80s with a big-block FE installed. Don said until they stiffened the chassis enough (several attempts), both doors would open when you punched the throttle... chassis flex, indeed. At the Monterey Historics a few years back, there was a (Hall-built?) Pantera Roadster shown- owned by "Halloran"? Can't quite remember but there were photos all over at the time. Even the half-roof left in the Targas apparently helped with stiffness but this car had that removed as well. It no longer looked like Tjaarda's design; resembled the Mangusta Roadster in profile. To each his own....
So-Cal's Don Welch had the first Targa-Pantera built in the early '80s with a big-block FE installed. Don said until they stiffened the chassis enough (several attempts), both doors would open when you punched the throttle... chassis flex, indeed. At the Monterey Historics a few years back, there was a (Hall-built?) Pantera Roadster shown- owned by "Halloran"? Can't quite remember but there were photos all over at the time. Even the half-roof left in the Targas apparently helped with stiffness but this car had that removed as well. It no longer looked like Tjaarda's design; resembled the Mangusta Roadster in profile. To each his own....
I like to think that I can be objective about a design, a person, a novel, even though I might not like it, I can respect and appreciate a unique perspective.
The Targa comes off much better then a car like the previous generation of Camaro, not this one, that never had a convertible version as a consideration but none the less someone felt the need to do it.
Esthetically it is pleaseing and although a far departure from the original conception, comes off well.
The flared cars were not part of the original concept either and yet they were transformed rather well.
Maybe I'd have to vote by saying that I don't think I would want to own one. I get the distinct impression that it is intended to be too much of a pretty boy and I'm looking for an exotic street fighter.
The Targa comes off much better then a car like the previous generation of Camaro, not this one, that never had a convertible version as a consideration but none the less someone felt the need to do it.
Esthetically it is pleaseing and although a far departure from the original conception, comes off well.
The flared cars were not part of the original concept either and yet they were transformed rather well.
Maybe I'd have to vote by saying that I don't think I would want to own one. I get the distinct impression that it is intended to be too much of a pretty boy and I'm looking for an exotic street fighter.
...I personally think the GT5S Targa is a very nice car. The structure of adding the steel plate vertically the length of the rocker adds a substantial amount of strength and weight also.
My 79 EMBO Coach built car has a rectangular frame and a restructured Monque body and the entire floor pan dropped 4". The strength as compared to my 73 is unmatched ... I can jack the car from one corner and the car rises up level similar to a full caged car ... a far superior structure compared to the std L model ...I will see if I can scrape up some pictures.
Ron
My 79 EMBO Coach built car has a rectangular frame and a restructured Monque body and the entire floor pan dropped 4". The strength as compared to my 73 is unmatched ... I can jack the car from one corner and the car rises up level similar to a full caged car ... a far superior structure compared to the std L model ...I will see if I can scrape up some pictures.
Ron
quote:It no longer looked like Tjaarda's design; resembled the Mangusta Roadster in profile. To each his own....
I have to agree with you BOSS, I don't think it looks quite right on the Pantera either. Any mod to the flow of the roof into the decklid is wrong IMO. That flow is what makes the Pantera so cool looking IMO. I do appreciate the work but don't think it is right on the Pantera. I agree, to each his own...
I would also agree with that.
There are some distinct styling cues the Pantera has that you don't want to mess with, the roof line is one of those.
On the other hand I think there are points in the styling that can be accentuated. & made to look better, or at least tougher.
The wide arse is one of them.
Fatter rear wheels & tubbed out GR4 style flares in my opinion makes the Pantera look more aggressive & purposeful.
When you see a GR4 you feel that it looks serious & designed to go hard.
But you must be careful with the front flares as if they stick out too far & the front wheels don’t have sufficient dish & the wheels recessed in too far then it makes the Pantera look like a funny car, and that’s not a cool at all for a serious sports car.
Personally I’m not a fan of the GT5 or GT5S, the squared profile front & rear fender arches are not as pretty as the GT4 more circular profile.
Although I like the radiused off fenders of the GT5S, they don’t match the existing sharpe lines of the rear decklid & thus it doesn’t flow.
The flutes in the rear fender of the GT5S make the car too busy & upset the fluid simple lines.
The worst feature of all is the addition of the “ground effects” mouldings under the rockers on the GT5, a very 80’s styling cue, but does not stand the test of time.
But hey, they are only my musings & I’m sure & understand that many would disagree.
Regards,
Tony
There are some distinct styling cues the Pantera has that you don't want to mess with, the roof line is one of those.
On the other hand I think there are points in the styling that can be accentuated. & made to look better, or at least tougher.
The wide arse is one of them.
Fatter rear wheels & tubbed out GR4 style flares in my opinion makes the Pantera look more aggressive & purposeful.
When you see a GR4 you feel that it looks serious & designed to go hard.
But you must be careful with the front flares as if they stick out too far & the front wheels don’t have sufficient dish & the wheels recessed in too far then it makes the Pantera look like a funny car, and that’s not a cool at all for a serious sports car.
Personally I’m not a fan of the GT5 or GT5S, the squared profile front & rear fender arches are not as pretty as the GT4 more circular profile.
Although I like the radiused off fenders of the GT5S, they don’t match the existing sharpe lines of the rear decklid & thus it doesn’t flow.
The flutes in the rear fender of the GT5S make the car too busy & upset the fluid simple lines.
The worst feature of all is the addition of the “ground effects” mouldings under the rockers on the GT5, a very 80’s styling cue, but does not stand the test of time.
But hey, they are only my musings & I’m sure & understand that many would disagree.
Regards,
Tony
Hey guys, good to see you again Mark, Russ, and Ron! It's been too long.
The red Pavesi Targa for sale in Germany for 129,000 Euro ($170+k US) appears to be a 1990, judging by the 'sport' seats and the 351 Windsor in it. If I recall correctly, only the last few Panteras before going over to the Si had Windsors because they ran out of Clevelands, and sport seats (which look the same as in the Si). All of the 41 Si Panteras had 5.0L fuel injected mustang motors in them. Of those 41, 4 were Pavesi Targas (you were close Boss!). Of those 4, 2 had the only 6 speed (Getrag) transaxles that came in a Pantera from the factory. Franz's blue targa Si is one of the 6 speeds.
Roland Jaekel's Pantera was a '75 GTS and was the car Pavesi used as the prototype. Roland bought the last set of steel 5-S flared fenders from the factory and converted his Pantera to a GT5-S about 13 or so years ago. He also added the windshield spoiler from the Si to his car, which I think looks really nice on his particular Pantera. I've heard that there were between 6 and 12 GT5-S Pavesi Targas built. I don't know if the 12 would include the prototype and Si's, but even only a dozen over a 7,000+ unit run makes them super rare. I myself just counted 12 in my picture library, including the prototype, mine, and all 4 Si's, but 5 of those were red with black interior GT5-S's. 2 of those were in Pavesi's ads, so the same car(s) could've been counted more than once.
I once considered going for an Si, but during my very brief research to import it found that if you CAN get it done, it could take up to a year (possibly longer), and cost as much as the car to get done. I would certainly verify that, or seek out other options (Canada?) if one seriously wanted to do it, though.
When I first came across my Pantera, the previous owner had the original blueprints from Pavesi that came with the car. That was in 1995. He told me that Gary Hall was hounding him relentlessly for a copy of the blueprints showing where and how the car was reinforced so that he could finish 'Purple Passion' (Hall's targa Pantera). He told me that Gary offered him 25k for a copy. He told me to recoup 25k of the price of the car by selling a copy to Gary. He wouldn't do it because he felt it would hurt the 'exclusivity' of the car if he did. I understood his point. I was in Vegas at the Fun Rally in '93 where Hall had said his targa would debut. When the time came, all he had were parts laid out on the floor around a central 'cage' that he made that he would actually have to cut the Pantera apart to get into. He was having a hard time making his targa Pantera structurally sound enough to be viable. Come 1995 and Hall still has no finished targa Pantera and the previous owner tells me about this "Gary Hall from California...", I had a feeling he wasn't bullsteining me. I mention this because apparently Gary took a different approach to reinforcing his car with the steel 'swiss cheese' rocker boxes and engine compartment roll bar. It seems the Pavesi way wound up working better because even their prototype (the '75) which was not an Embo body Pantera held up just as well. Gary also used Honda Del Sol pieces for his targa roof lip integration and latching, and Pavesi used pins and latches from a Ferrari 328. Gary told me that converting that ('71?) Pantera to a targa was so much more of a headache than it was worth that he wouldn't do another one for 500k!
The previous owner never let me see the blueprints for fear that I was one of Gary's agents (that's what he said). I didn't buy the car then because I was only 27 and didn't have the whole almost 100k he was asking (hence his "recoup from Gary" angle). My Pantera traded hands 3 more times before I got it 8 years later, and when I finally got it, the blueprints were gone! I tried to trace them backwards, but the trail was cold. I've had several communications with Pavesi about it, but they always seem to run out of English at the most inopportune times! I did get from them that there were no modifications to the back of the car. The engine stayed in while they did their thing. There is no rollbar intergral or otherwise.
The main support for the lack of the roof is in the those 1/4" x 4-5" steel planks running under the rockers. Incidentally, these steel supports only hang down less than an inch past the floor pans (which are dropped 4"), and not as far down as the front spoiler. I've never hit the steel supports once in 10 years (but the front spoiler hasn't been as lucky...). Removing the outer rocker and welding in an oval tube would've been cleaner, but more work = more money! If you look at the profile of a regular GT5-S, you will see the front subframe and floor pans hanging below the rockers. These targa supports actually clean up that view. when I first got my Pantera, the rocker supports were painted body color and stuck out like sore thumbs. One of the first things I did was paint them flat black and they are so far under the body that they virtually disappeared!
There are more thick steel plates welded around the perimeter of each floor pan, and the windshield surround is heavily reinforced. When I place a floor jack under the front subframe behind the front wheel and jack, the whole side of the car will rise almost level. While in the air, the doors open and close perfectly. This Pantera is MUCH stiffer than my '74 was. The last time I jacked my '74 up like that, I thought the windshield was going to pop out! My particular targa Pantera does not make any noises whatsoever. No sqeaks, no rattles, no banging, no moaning, no creaking. Nothing. It is supremely solid! I have no idea how much weight in steel was added to achieve this, and I don't care either! It can't be more than a couple or so hundred pounds, and it's not a race car where every pound counts, so what difference does it make?
The roadster owned by Halloran was made by a shop that makes prototype cars and I heard it cost him more than 250k to make. It has a complete box frame in the rear that comes up behind the seats and basically forms a cube that the drivetrain sits in. It's a true roadster, so there is no roof of any kind, or a provision for one.
In regard to the styling of the GT5-S, when I first wanted a targa, I didn't want a 5-S and set out to convert my '74 because I liked the stock body better. After concluding that it would cost more to convert my '74 than to buy the '86 5-S already done, I had my answer: I would buy the 5-S and put regular pantera sheetmetal on it! It didn't take me long to realize that the 5-S has presence. Pictures generally don't do a 5-S justice at all! It also looks like a much more modern car, and the nonstock wheels really emphasize this. Most people think my pantera is fairly new, certainly not 27 years old! I could understand what some might say about the mix of rounded and sharp edges not mixing well, but have you seen the 2014 Corvette? It starts more rounded and curved over the front fenders and windshield, and winds up almost completely sharp and angular and boxy at the rear. I think it's the best looking 'Vette ever!
I feel that the Pantera lends itself extrodinarily well to being a targa. You have to see it in person to fully appreciate it. Unfortunately, it is like a superb aroma that you just can't smell through a computer! I think it looks much better with the roof out and to me, the lines flow beautifully from front to back. There is nothing abrupt, or clumsy about it. However, the scoop and delta wing make the back look too busy and heavy. They put too much color over the back and make it look very out of balance when the roof is out. That's why I took those off of my Pantera.
Sitting in it is even more enjoyable, and driving in it is just a spectacular and visceral experience! I feel safer driving it because I can actually see whether or not the people around me actually see me. Anyone want to go for a ride?
Here's a link to a thread with a picture gallery of targa Panteras I made years ago for those who would like to see more pictures of many different targa cars:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...120068662#6120068662
I hope this answers some of the questions asked!
Michael
(Here's one of my favorite pictures of my Pavesi Targa GT5-S)
The red Pavesi Targa for sale in Germany for 129,000 Euro ($170+k US) appears to be a 1990, judging by the 'sport' seats and the 351 Windsor in it. If I recall correctly, only the last few Panteras before going over to the Si had Windsors because they ran out of Clevelands, and sport seats (which look the same as in the Si). All of the 41 Si Panteras had 5.0L fuel injected mustang motors in them. Of those 41, 4 were Pavesi Targas (you were close Boss!). Of those 4, 2 had the only 6 speed (Getrag) transaxles that came in a Pantera from the factory. Franz's blue targa Si is one of the 6 speeds.
Roland Jaekel's Pantera was a '75 GTS and was the car Pavesi used as the prototype. Roland bought the last set of steel 5-S flared fenders from the factory and converted his Pantera to a GT5-S about 13 or so years ago. He also added the windshield spoiler from the Si to his car, which I think looks really nice on his particular Pantera. I've heard that there were between 6 and 12 GT5-S Pavesi Targas built. I don't know if the 12 would include the prototype and Si's, but even only a dozen over a 7,000+ unit run makes them super rare. I myself just counted 12 in my picture library, including the prototype, mine, and all 4 Si's, but 5 of those were red with black interior GT5-S's. 2 of those were in Pavesi's ads, so the same car(s) could've been counted more than once.
I once considered going for an Si, but during my very brief research to import it found that if you CAN get it done, it could take up to a year (possibly longer), and cost as much as the car to get done. I would certainly verify that, or seek out other options (Canada?) if one seriously wanted to do it, though.
When I first came across my Pantera, the previous owner had the original blueprints from Pavesi that came with the car. That was in 1995. He told me that Gary Hall was hounding him relentlessly for a copy of the blueprints showing where and how the car was reinforced so that he could finish 'Purple Passion' (Hall's targa Pantera). He told me that Gary offered him 25k for a copy. He told me to recoup 25k of the price of the car by selling a copy to Gary. He wouldn't do it because he felt it would hurt the 'exclusivity' of the car if he did. I understood his point. I was in Vegas at the Fun Rally in '93 where Hall had said his targa would debut. When the time came, all he had were parts laid out on the floor around a central 'cage' that he made that he would actually have to cut the Pantera apart to get into. He was having a hard time making his targa Pantera structurally sound enough to be viable. Come 1995 and Hall still has no finished targa Pantera and the previous owner tells me about this "Gary Hall from California...", I had a feeling he wasn't bullsteining me. I mention this because apparently Gary took a different approach to reinforcing his car with the steel 'swiss cheese' rocker boxes and engine compartment roll bar. It seems the Pavesi way wound up working better because even their prototype (the '75) which was not an Embo body Pantera held up just as well. Gary also used Honda Del Sol pieces for his targa roof lip integration and latching, and Pavesi used pins and latches from a Ferrari 328. Gary told me that converting that ('71?) Pantera to a targa was so much more of a headache than it was worth that he wouldn't do another one for 500k!
The previous owner never let me see the blueprints for fear that I was one of Gary's agents (that's what he said). I didn't buy the car then because I was only 27 and didn't have the whole almost 100k he was asking (hence his "recoup from Gary" angle). My Pantera traded hands 3 more times before I got it 8 years later, and when I finally got it, the blueprints were gone! I tried to trace them backwards, but the trail was cold. I've had several communications with Pavesi about it, but they always seem to run out of English at the most inopportune times! I did get from them that there were no modifications to the back of the car. The engine stayed in while they did their thing. There is no rollbar intergral or otherwise.
The main support for the lack of the roof is in the those 1/4" x 4-5" steel planks running under the rockers. Incidentally, these steel supports only hang down less than an inch past the floor pans (which are dropped 4"), and not as far down as the front spoiler. I've never hit the steel supports once in 10 years (but the front spoiler hasn't been as lucky...). Removing the outer rocker and welding in an oval tube would've been cleaner, but more work = more money! If you look at the profile of a regular GT5-S, you will see the front subframe and floor pans hanging below the rockers. These targa supports actually clean up that view. when I first got my Pantera, the rocker supports were painted body color and stuck out like sore thumbs. One of the first things I did was paint them flat black and they are so far under the body that they virtually disappeared!
There are more thick steel plates welded around the perimeter of each floor pan, and the windshield surround is heavily reinforced. When I place a floor jack under the front subframe behind the front wheel and jack, the whole side of the car will rise almost level. While in the air, the doors open and close perfectly. This Pantera is MUCH stiffer than my '74 was. The last time I jacked my '74 up like that, I thought the windshield was going to pop out! My particular targa Pantera does not make any noises whatsoever. No sqeaks, no rattles, no banging, no moaning, no creaking. Nothing. It is supremely solid! I have no idea how much weight in steel was added to achieve this, and I don't care either! It can't be more than a couple or so hundred pounds, and it's not a race car where every pound counts, so what difference does it make?
The roadster owned by Halloran was made by a shop that makes prototype cars and I heard it cost him more than 250k to make. It has a complete box frame in the rear that comes up behind the seats and basically forms a cube that the drivetrain sits in. It's a true roadster, so there is no roof of any kind, or a provision for one.
In regard to the styling of the GT5-S, when I first wanted a targa, I didn't want a 5-S and set out to convert my '74 because I liked the stock body better. After concluding that it would cost more to convert my '74 than to buy the '86 5-S already done, I had my answer: I would buy the 5-S and put regular pantera sheetmetal on it! It didn't take me long to realize that the 5-S has presence. Pictures generally don't do a 5-S justice at all! It also looks like a much more modern car, and the nonstock wheels really emphasize this. Most people think my pantera is fairly new, certainly not 27 years old! I could understand what some might say about the mix of rounded and sharp edges not mixing well, but have you seen the 2014 Corvette? It starts more rounded and curved over the front fenders and windshield, and winds up almost completely sharp and angular and boxy at the rear. I think it's the best looking 'Vette ever!
I feel that the Pantera lends itself extrodinarily well to being a targa. You have to see it in person to fully appreciate it. Unfortunately, it is like a superb aroma that you just can't smell through a computer! I think it looks much better with the roof out and to me, the lines flow beautifully from front to back. There is nothing abrupt, or clumsy about it. However, the scoop and delta wing make the back look too busy and heavy. They put too much color over the back and make it look very out of balance when the roof is out. That's why I took those off of my Pantera.
Sitting in it is even more enjoyable, and driving in it is just a spectacular and visceral experience! I feel safer driving it because I can actually see whether or not the people around me actually see me. Anyone want to go for a ride?
Here's a link to a thread with a picture gallery of targa Panteras I made years ago for those who would like to see more pictures of many different targa cars:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...120068662#6120068662
I hope this answers some of the questions asked!
Michael
(Here's one of my favorite pictures of my Pavesi Targa GT5-S)
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Nice hearing from you Michael, I hope all is well.
Your Pantera is as beautiful as ever ... I wish I aged as well.
Your Pantera is as beautiful as ever ... I wish I aged as well.
Fascinating. I feel like an alcoholic, I hate myself for not being able to stop? I can't. More!
Beautiful and inexplicably addictive car Michael. Thanks for posting.
Beautiful and inexplicably addictive car Michael. Thanks for posting.
Great write up Michael, I enjoyed that read.
regards,
Tony.
regards,
Tony.
Car is nice as ever and the wheels were a perfect choice ... what wheels came stock ?
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Car is nice as ever and the wheels were a perfect choice ... what wheels came stock ?
Thanks Ron! The car came stock with the standard widebody 10" & 13" x 15" Campys. The wheels I chose are 11" x 18" & 13" x19" 3 piece Kinesis.
Michael
George,
Glad to see you're still alive and kickin'! How are the grandkids?
Doug,
We'll have to catch up this summer and go for a ride!
Tony,
I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you ever make it to the US, be sure and look me up.
Michael
Glad to see you're still alive and kickin'! How are the grandkids?
Doug,
We'll have to catch up this summer and go for a ride!
Tony,
I'm glad you enjoyed it. If you ever make it to the US, be sure and look me up.
Michael
Geez, I missed this post. Nice to see you back here, Michael!
We passed thru your neck of the woods a few times last year - to Saratoga, then thru NY and Boston on our way to eat lobster on the coast. I hope we can get to see you and your awesome beast again - maybe this summer?
We passed thru your neck of the woods a few times last year - to Saratoga, then thru NY and Boston on our way to eat lobster on the coast. I hope we can get to see you and your awesome beast again - maybe this summer?
quote:However, the scoop and delta wing make the back look too busy and heavy. They put too much color over the back and make it look very out of balance when the roof is out. That's why I took those off of my Pantera.
I agree with that, the Pantera for sale looks much better without the delta wing and the kinesis wheels are a good choice.
Congrats with your car
Michael, that was very imformative and interesting insights into the Targa Pantera's.
One thing that I don't think was mentioned, was the additional cost involved in buying a GT5-S Pevasi Targa back in the mid '80's. I heard somewhere that ordering a Pevasi GT5-S nearly doubled the price of the car. Maybe someone can verify if I am correct on this? I own an '88 GT5-S Amerisport. When I bought the car, it came with the original Amerisport invoice from 1988. The invoice of the car back in 1988 was 89k. Since the mid to late '80's, if you calculate using an inflation index compared to that of today, the price of money has approximately doubled. That means a GT5-S purchased in 1988 for around 90k would be the equivalent of paying 180k in today's money. If you factor in what you had to pay for a Pevasi GT5-S back in the mid nineteen eighties, which was about double the cost of a regular GT5-S, it would have cost the equivalent in today's money around 360k. Wow! Can that be right? If so, that would explain why only 14 or so Targa's were ever produced.
David #9465
One thing that I don't think was mentioned, was the additional cost involved in buying a GT5-S Pevasi Targa back in the mid '80's. I heard somewhere that ordering a Pevasi GT5-S nearly doubled the price of the car. Maybe someone can verify if I am correct on this? I own an '88 GT5-S Amerisport. When I bought the car, it came with the original Amerisport invoice from 1988. The invoice of the car back in 1988 was 89k. Since the mid to late '80's, if you calculate using an inflation index compared to that of today, the price of money has approximately doubled. That means a GT5-S purchased in 1988 for around 90k would be the equivalent of paying 180k in today's money. If you factor in what you had to pay for a Pevasi GT5-S back in the mid nineteen eighties, which was about double the cost of a regular GT5-S, it would have cost the equivalent in today's money around 360k. Wow! Can that be right? If so, that would explain why only 14 or so Targa's were ever produced.
David #9465
quote:Originally posted by Cyboman:
Anyone want to go for a ride?
I hope this answers some of the questions asked!
Michael
(Here's one of my favorite pictures of my Pavesi Targa GT5-S)
Yes I do. How do I sign up? Call you the next time I'm in Bridgeport?
Apparently the car was sold in 4 days.
Fortunately I didn't sell my house
Some cars are for sale for years, others are sold in a blink of an eye. It proves again that the special and expensive items still sell as before.
Fortunately I didn't sell my house
Some cars are for sale for years, others are sold in a blink of an eye. It proves again that the special and expensive items still sell as before.
David B,
It would be great to see you all again! Keep me posted on what's happening, especially if you're down my way. I definitely want to hit some events this season and catch up with some friends.
David (adobe),
It's been a while! How's the Pantera? Did it come out the way you expected? Is Pantera ownership all that you'd thought it would be? How do you like driving it? I heard the targa option added 50% to the price of the Pantera. So your 90k GT5-S would have totaled about 135k if it were a Pavesi Targa. Definitely a hunk of change!
Incidentally, all of the Pavesi Targa Panteras were GT5-S models, which were made beginning with model year 1985 and ending with 1990 (of which, I'm told, about 129 were produced). The exceptions were the prototype, which was a 1975 GTS, and the 4 Si's, which were all 1993's (with successive serial numbers).
Of all the Pavesi Targas made, only 2 made it to the U.S. Besides mine, there is a red with black one possibly still lurking here that was once owned by Mike DeGonnis of M&D Engineering in Queens, NY (It was a very serious Pantera shop back in the day). I saw it one time at his shop (easily 20 years ago), but had no idea at the time what I was looking at. I do remember it quite distinctly, though, as it made an impression on me. I got the feeling that he liked the earlier cars better, and he sold it shortly after I saw it. I haven't seen or heard about it since. It is possible that it found it's way back to Europe.
One red with red/black interior GT5-S Targa Pantera was converted to look like an Si. There are several cues that give away that is not an original Si, like the Campy (rather than Technomagnesio) wheels, the side skirts, fender gills, mirrors, the fuel filler (on the wrong side), the older gauges, switches, and climate controls, to name a few. I didn't see the engine bay. Besides, the 4 Si targas are burgundy/tan, blue/tan, gold/black, and yellow/black. It's hard to tell by the small and low quality pictures whether or not this Pantera is, in fact, a Pavesi conversion.
tajon,
Shoot me a PM the next time you're headed this way and we'll see if we can meet up!
ALFA4FUN,
If that Targa Pantera sold in 4 days, I'm sure he got close to his asking price which bodes well for Pantera owners everywhere, particularly those with rarer models!
Michael
It would be great to see you all again! Keep me posted on what's happening, especially if you're down my way. I definitely want to hit some events this season and catch up with some friends.
David (adobe),
It's been a while! How's the Pantera? Did it come out the way you expected? Is Pantera ownership all that you'd thought it would be? How do you like driving it? I heard the targa option added 50% to the price of the Pantera. So your 90k GT5-S would have totaled about 135k if it were a Pavesi Targa. Definitely a hunk of change!
Incidentally, all of the Pavesi Targa Panteras were GT5-S models, which were made beginning with model year 1985 and ending with 1990 (of which, I'm told, about 129 were produced). The exceptions were the prototype, which was a 1975 GTS, and the 4 Si's, which were all 1993's (with successive serial numbers).
Of all the Pavesi Targas made, only 2 made it to the U.S. Besides mine, there is a red with black one possibly still lurking here that was once owned by Mike DeGonnis of M&D Engineering in Queens, NY (It was a very serious Pantera shop back in the day). I saw it one time at his shop (easily 20 years ago), but had no idea at the time what I was looking at. I do remember it quite distinctly, though, as it made an impression on me. I got the feeling that he liked the earlier cars better, and he sold it shortly after I saw it. I haven't seen or heard about it since. It is possible that it found it's way back to Europe.
One red with red/black interior GT5-S Targa Pantera was converted to look like an Si. There are several cues that give away that is not an original Si, like the Campy (rather than Technomagnesio) wheels, the side skirts, fender gills, mirrors, the fuel filler (on the wrong side), the older gauges, switches, and climate controls, to name a few. I didn't see the engine bay. Besides, the 4 Si targas are burgundy/tan, blue/tan, gold/black, and yellow/black. It's hard to tell by the small and low quality pictures whether or not this Pantera is, in fact, a Pavesi conversion.
tajon,
Shoot me a PM the next time you're headed this way and we'll see if we can meet up!
ALFA4FUN,
If that Targa Pantera sold in 4 days, I'm sure he got close to his asking price which bodes well for Pantera owners everywhere, particularly those with rarer models!
Michael
quote:Originally posted by adoberetreat:
Michael, that was very imformative and interesting insights into the Targa Pantera's.
One thing that I don't think was mentioned, was the additional cost involved in buying a GT5-S Pevasi Targa back in the mid '80's. I heard somewhere that ordering a Pevasi GT5-S nearly doubled the price of the car. Maybe someone can verify if I am correct on this? I own an '88 GT5-S Amerisport. When I bought the car, it came with the original Amerisport invoice from 1988. The invoice of the car back in 1988 was 89k. Since the mid to late '80's, if you calculate using an inflation index compared to that of today, the price of money has approximately doubled. That means a GT5-S purchased in 1988 for around 90k would be the equivalent of paying 180k in today's money. If you factor in what you had to pay for a Pevasi GT5-S back in the mid nineteen eighties, which was about double the cost of a regular GT5-S, it would have cost the equivalent in today's money around 360k. Wow! Can that be right? If so, that would explain why only 14 or so Targa's were ever produced.
David #9465
sorry , but is this correct ? 89k? in '88 ??
Anyone know the Europ prices for the '80-90's cars ?
BelgiumBarry- I double checked the invoice of my '88 Amerisport GT5-S from 1988. The cost was $88k and change. Because these 5-S cars were grey market cars here in the U.S., Amerisport had to have the cars shipped to the USA without the engine. AmeriSport installed the engine, made the car DOT compliant, and then Amerisport became the listed manufacturer. I don't really know what these GT5-S' sold for in Europe. But in the USA these cars were quite an expensive proposition. I believe less than 50 of these cars ever made it to the USA.
David #9465
David #9465
quote:Originally posted by adoberetreat:
BelgiumBarry- I double checked the invoice of my '88 Amerisport GT5-S from 1988. The cost was $88k and change. Because these 5-S cars were grey market cars here in the U.S., Amerisport had to have the cars shipped to the USA without the engine. AmeriSport installed the engine, made the car DOT compliant, and then Amerisport became the listed manufacturer. I don't really know what these GT5-S' sold for in Europe. But in the USA these cars were quite an expensive proposition. I believe less than 50 of these cars ever made it to the USA.
David #9465
David, i believe you , but just had some doubts how to understand the invoice from Caroll Shelby for 3 new GT5S Panteras he sold , one of which is mine now... OK, it was '86 and he speaks of "chassis", would that be without engines at that time of sale ?
price was around 30k $ / car
My wife and I were traveling Through New York in our RV and were lucky enough to meet up with Michael and see his beautiful Pantera! Great looking car and I love the Targa design.
I'm sorry actually I think it was Connecticut. Michael saw that we were driving through and came and met us.