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So as you may have noticed in another thread, I have managed to crash my Pantera. I thought I might as well pass on the circumstances, so that others can benefit from my experience.

My equipment: Photo on Flickr

Conditions: 7:45am, overcast, light rain, approx. 5 degrees C.

Location: Intersection of Patricia Bay Highway and Beacon Avenue in Sidney

From a standing start, I aggressively accelerated southbound when the traffic light turned green, without wheelspin. I can't state with certainty at what RPM I shifted into second gear, but it was sufficiently elevated that the engine was somewhat up its power band. On letting out the clutch and applying throttle, the wheels spun and the tail immediately started going to the right. I don't believe I had exceeded the actual speed limit yet (still in first gear), although I can't state that with certainty, as I wasn't watching the instruments.

I responded automatically and backed off the throttle, so that the rear tires could regain their grip, BUT THEY DIDN'T. Steering into the slide, the front tires behaved, because they had not broken traction yet, but the rears kept sliding.

At this point the car was rotating slowly until it was going down the highway backwards. This is an important moment, because it is your second chance to regain traction while the wheels are lined up with the direction of travel, albeit in reverse.

Once again, the tires DID NOT GRIP. At this point I realized I was a just passenger, and waited for the crunch.

The key point here is: Once sliding, these specialty tires KEEP SLIDING.

So, let's see what Michelin says about them. From TireRack:

quote:
The Pilot Sport PS2 is a Max Performance Summer tire member of the Michelin Pilot family of low profile, high-speed tires. Initially developed for Original Equipment (O.E.) on some of the world's most prestigious sports cars and performance sedans, the Pilot Sport PS2 combines world-class dry road traction, handling and cornering. Some of the first Pilot Sport PS2 O.E. fitments included the BMW Alpina Z8, McLaren SLR and Porsche GT2 & GT3 models. The Pilot Sport PS2 is not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.


(My italics.)

So given that I want to DRIVE this car, wouldn't I rather have tires that offer more well-rounded performance characteristics? Good idea; let's do a TireRack.com search for a set of tires in the required sizes, 235/40/17 and 335/35/17. Search results, limited ONLY BY TIRE SIZE: results

Hmmm, this is the only tire available in those sizes as a matched set. (I don't think I need to bother going into the problem of finding appropriate 15-inch tires in the original sizes for this audience.)

Anyway, the end result is that I end up driving on tires inappropriate to the conditions, have a lapse in judgment, and crash my car.

Now, some general observations.

This is my second Pantera; I bought the first one brand new from the dealer in 1974, with its original 15x7 and 15x8 Campagnolos and Goodyear Arrivas. That car was my daily driver, rain or shine, summer or winter. I lived in Edmonton at the time, and visited my parents in Penticton for Christmas. By driving. Over the Rogers Pass. In my Pantera.

I remember the trip back to Edmonton for one thing in particular; I made the 600 miles in about eleven hours, which was about what we could manage in the summer in good conditions (we didn't have all the traffic then). It was snowing in the Rockies, and I drifted and powered my way all through the Rogers Pass on those Arrivas, which were nearing the end of their useful life. It was an absolute blast, and I could trust that car even between the cliffs up and down on either side of the road. That Pantera was a well-rounded car that I could trust completely.

I have never trusted my second Pantera the same way. What modifications have been made to it did not maintain a well-rounded personality. It has been lowered; it has had the rubber suspension bushings replaced with poly; it has a bigger rear sway bar; it has WAY more horsepower. Comparing the two cars, I would have to say that Ford and DeTomaso got it right, and the changes detract from the car. Sufficiently so that I feel betrayed by it.

Ah, but I'm getting old, and no longer have the quick reactions I did in 1975, right? That must be it, right?

Nope. I just visited my mother again in Penticton at the end of this January, this time traversing the Hope-Princeton highway in the snow. Again, I had an absolute blast, drifting and powering my way past every car I encountered on the road. Here's a picture I took of the conditions: Allison Pass

But this trip I didn't do in the Pantera; I did it in my four-door five-speed 1992 Acura Integra, which, like my first Pantera, I can completely trust.

Oh yes, the car; how is it? I'm not sure yet. It hit the highway divider while nearly parallel to it with the right front corner, breaking the wheel. It rebounded sufficiently that the side of the car did not touch the barrier; next point of contact was the back edge of the right rear wheel; breaking the suspension and forcing the wheel up into the wheel well. That was the last contact; the car then slid to a stop. The barrier was displaced sideways by about 15 inches for a bit more than the length of the car, so it absorbed considerable energy that the car did not have to.

The ZF appears to be intact, so the force must have been absorbed before the halfshaft bottomed. There is no damage to the left side; both doors are untouched and work; hood is untouched and closes normally; roof is untouched; rear deck lid is untouched. Underside of right front wheel well below park light is stove in, but light is not broken (none are). The main frame rails under the center of the car appear to be dead straight by sighting along them.

The problem is the right rear area. When it was forced up, the tire buckled the area just below and behind the gill. The cover piece mating with the engine cover is displaced up and left, which doesn't look good. Also, while the deck lid is untouched, it mismatches with the fenders at the rear on closing by 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. This indicates that although the rear panel appears untouched, it has been displaced to the left by that amount. And finally, the right rear fender has three buckles along its top edge. My guess is that that area was rotated a couple of degrees counterclockwise around the right main frame rail.

Is it fixable? For sure, yes, back to better-than-new by the guys who do full bare-metal Pantera restorations. It's not that bad. Within the constraints of an insurance claim, here in Victoria? Watch this space...
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The picture turns my stomach. Panteras are not forgiving cars to drive. They are high strung bitches that will turn on you in the wrong conditions. When things go bad in a Pantera, they go bad faster than in most cars and there's no stopping until the spin is over. Some one with a better grasp of the psysics could probably explain but I think it has to do with polar inertia. 911s have some bad habits too and they're wonderful cars. When we mod our cars with newer and updated parts, we take out the forgiving traits that was engineered in to the cars in the first place.The understeer is gone. We give up the safety for a little more performance. The first time I spun my Pantera was on Michelin Pilot Sports and I didn't let them warm up. It was a cold October morning 4 years ago. That sounds like circumstances similiar to yours. I'm glad you and no one else was hurt and that the car should be repairable. There is a lesson there for all of us. Don't take driving cars like our for granted.
Really sorry to hear about (and see) the result of your accident. At least you are ok; cars can be fixed.

Thank you for posting detailed info on the Pilot Sports. I have been trying to nail down my PSI and, despite your bad fortune, this feedback is very helpful.

All the best with your repair work. There is a 60% chance I will bring my cat out to the Island this summer - so hopefully you are operational in #6339 again by then so we can hit the road together.
Marcus,

Thanks for taking the time and care to bare your soul and the details of your unfortunate event. You will have undoubtedly done more good to the community here by doing so than if you had not.

Again I extend my regrets but am glad you are OK. The car can be fixed.

As far as tires go I can say the the Bridgestone summer performance tire supplied on my RX-8 are every bit as treacherous in similar conditions and far worse if there is any snow or ice in sight. I don't know if my Pantera's Pirelli P-Zeros would be the same as your Pilots, but I sure hope I never find out.
I am comforted to read that no one was injured. It could have been much worse.

Your car can be repaired without a doubt - and hey - its only money.

Like the others I am grateful that you took the courage to post your expereince. We can all learn from this.

I read your praise of 6339 (you first). Why did you let her go?

Finally, I would like to add a comment: I have a '74 with Pirelli P-7s. It could be the age of the rubber but ....

Applying a good dose of power at an inappropriate moment, will cause my rear end to fishtail right. This condition is amplified when driving on wet roads.

I have had the opportunity to drive some formula cars and older Porsche 911, 912 on race tracks (in dry conditions). These cars, with their rear weight bias tend to overstear (be loose) if you unweight the back end. As was explained to me in training and practice: You want to apply power on these rear heavy cars, so that the interia shift causes the rear wheels to "weight" and thereby get better grip. For a car that has more of a front weight bias (ie. understears) - we want to lift on power to unweight the rear so as to balance for more traction in the front. Applying power on an overstearing car tends to be counter-intuitive to most drivers as we tend to lift on power when the rear breaks. Our daily drivers are usually front end heavy understearers (pushers).

I can say that when my P7s break, on acceleration or in a turn, I have learned from race school driving to keep the power on -or add even more power. As a result, if my car feels like breaking I apply power and fortunately the car has snapped back into line.

The only down side with the heavy rear end biased Pantera, when she breaks, she snaps so fast it comes as a real stunner - as your experience has shown.

B.G.
...Wet, Cold, Raining; and You do a 'Burn-Out' in a Powerful, Mid-Engined, Exotic! What did You think was going to Happen?? You got what You Asked for!! And then You Blame IT On the Tires! Put $100,000. Into it; and It Still will NOT be The Same as it Was! You Get 'Tears' from the rest of these Guys; NO Sympathy from Me!!...
quote:
Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Wet, Cold, Raining; and You do a 'Burn-Out' in a Powerful, Mid-Engined, Exotic! What did You think was going to Happen?? You got what You Asked for!! And then You Blame IT On the Tires! Put $100,000. Into it; and It Still will NOT be The Same as it Was! You Get 'Tears' from the rest of these Guys; NO Sympathy from Me!!...


1) It wasn't a burn-out.
2) No tears, just the realization of how close many of have come to telling this story ourselves.
3) Sharing one's f/ups is a hard thing to do but can help others from making the same silly mistake by showing the potential consequences.
4) I didn't see a request for sympathy anywhere, just a desire to help others avoid the same misfortune.
Marcus,
I hope you can get fixed up quick and get back on the road again. Thanks for the details.

quote:
Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Wet, Cold, Raining; and You do a 'Burn-Out' in a Powerful, Mid-Engined, Exotic! What did You think was going to Happen?? You got what You Asked for!! And then You Blame IT On the Tires! Put $100,000. Into it; and It Still will NOT be The Same as it Was! You Get 'Tears' from the rest of these Guys; NO Sympathy from Me!!...


Considering we have 3-4 months of semi dry warm weather up here I would think that some semi agressive driving in cold wet times will happen. Last I checked it is possible. We dont all live in areas that the sun shines 95% of the year. Marcus has more performance driving experience than many on this board and I certainly value and trust his opinion. I may not be old and wise but someone who was once said something like "If you cant say something nice............." Maybe you can help me with the last part.

Blaine
I'm glad you told your story Marcus. It did make an impression on me and all of us can learn from this. It's always easy to go back and second guess yourself. On wet pavement I doubt adding power would have helped. You had no traction it seems. A Pantera has ugly personality traits and this could have happened to anyone here. It's better to take the car out and drive it hard rather than leave it in the garage to slowly rot away. You can rebuild almost any car these days better than when it was new.
quote:
Originally posted by korina:
It's better to take the car out and drive it hard rather than leave it in the garage to slowly rot away.


Even now, I still agree with that.

Ironically, the only reason it was out in the rain at all was because I had an appointment that morning to get my four new disk brake rotors installed.

Come to think of it, those four heavy rotors at the back of the rear trunk probably didn't help matters.
quote:
Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...Wet, Cold, Raining; and You do a 'Burn-Out' in a Powerful, Mid-Engined, Exotic! What did You think was going to Happen?? ...


I will have to admit that this is probably what went through every witness' mind at the scene. It certainly went through the RCMP officer's mind; I have paper proof.

Technically, a "burn-out" should involve some smoke, and at least some wheelspin; there was neither. Some wheelspin would have been a very welcome warning for what to expect in second gear, though.

5758 is my fifth mid-engine car. Not one of the others ever did something like this to me, and it certainly wasn't for lack of pushing them. The biggest single factor is, I believe, the "advancements" in performance tire technology. Who the heck wants a Grand Touring car that you have to park when it rains?

And to address your point: yes, I did something rash, and I'm paying for it. I'm not hiding. Had the car (the tires, really) lived up to my expectations, I would have gotten away with it. I didn't. However, I do feel betrayed by my equipment, so I'm reporting that to all my friends here, you included.

Oh, and one final note: I'm not trying to slag Michelin in particular, this is probably the case with all the so-called "high-performance" tires out there. The Michelin all-seasons on my Acura Integra are probably the best tires I have ever owned. Come on Michelin: please, please make those same tires in sizes for my Pantera!
First I need to say that I am sorry for your loss.

I have never driven my Pantera in winter conditions. I do not know how it would react.

I can say that the original factory configuration is exceptional even in flooded pavements.

I know that no matter what you do some cars respond negatively to wider/lower profiles.

I know that summer profile tires are made just for that. Summer warm and hot road conditions. The formula of the rubber compound just won't work in cold conditions. With full depth treads many summer tires can get by in a dusting BUT really are leathal with anything approaching ice.

Believe this or not but the best high performance tire that I have ever driven in real winter conditions is the Goodyear Gatorback GT+4 with the unidirectional pattern. These were original equipment on my Taurus SHO. I went through three sets of them, 215-60-16.

I made the mistake of going to a 225-55-16 with an "all-season" aqua tread. It has been nothing but problems. It virtually hydroplanes on dry pavement, and it is a AA traction tire.

Tires are probably 90% of the handling of the car. If you change the profile that's ok, BUT you are re-engineering the car. For Southern Californian type driving it is no problem. Here in the NE that COULD be very leathal.

The compounds on todays high performance tires are sophisticated. When they say summer ONLY, they aren't screwing around. One doesn't need a prescription to buy tires here, but maybe that isn't a bad idea.

I'm not lecturing, I'm still learning, and like you it is a hard learning curve.
Summer tires can indeed be tricky during wet/cold conditions. I just replaced the winter tires on the M5 with summer hi-perf tires .. perhaps a little early for SW Germany, however with warm weather already here, others made the switch weeks ago. Plus, tommorow I'm making the one hour trek to Nürburgring. Smiler

Looking at your picture, the damage doesn't appear to be as bad as it could've been. More importantly I'm glad you're able to type about your experience. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Best wishes.
Last edited by panther
Sorry to hear about your car. I think the major contributer to your incident was the 5 degrees C. My tire guy preaches over and over that summer tires, even all seasons basically turn to stone at 6 degree C and below. High performance tires are probably a couple degrees worse (8C). Not suggesting you get snow tires for a Pantera but on our daily drivers the benefits of winter tires are more than a snow capable tread pattern. They have an entirely different compound that stays soft at low temps. Also explains why they wear so fast if you leave them on in the summer. So your SLIDING - KEEP SLIDING is pretty much the expected reaction on cool wet roads. On a dry road they would have likely hooked up again. Thanks for sharing your story. Out here in the east we had some very nice but cool weather early in the season and was tempting to take the car out a bit early. Good lesson for us all.
FYI

I've lost total traction in the rain in a '71 Mach 1 Mustang riding on BF Goodrich tires & a '71 Chevy Suburban running on Goodyear truck tires. Neither set of tires were summer only high performance tires.

The Mustang lost traction when the rear tires crossed over the painted lines crossing the road at an intersection. Those wet lines were like grease. Once the tires broke free & started spinning, there was enough water on the road to allow the car to hydro-plane.

The Suburban lost traction in a braking manuever, I tried to brake too quickly, and exceeded the grip of the rear tires (a common malady in trucks with no load in the rear). That long Suburban went sideways quickly and swung like a pendulum.

I have driven the Pantera in the rain on 315 section Dunlops with no problem, even at 70 mph. I haven't driven it on the new PS2's yet. I have learned from my mistakes, grown older and more cautious. When it starts to rain, I normally pull the Pantera over into one of the slower lanes and just cruise. Let the guys with all season tires & anti-lock breaks go fast. If I want to go faster I slowly increase speed in small increments and drive for several miles at each increment before going to the next. If the rain starts coming down harder, I slow the vehicle down. I also leave a lot of braking room between me and the car ahead of me, so I never have to brake too suddenly.

I have found for each vehicle & tire combination there is a rate of acceleration, and a rate of deceleration at which the tires will break loose when the road is wet. There's also a speed at which the car will hydroplane. You've got to carefully experiment a bit to find these limits, but so long as the limits aren't exceeded all is well. Air pressure also affects the wet traction limits of a tire, an over inflated tire is a handicap on a wet road. I run my tires near the recommended settings. Tire temperature should be an obvious consideration for any auto enthusiast, it doesn't matter what form of racing you like to watch or participate in, everyone knows the tires must be warmed up before you rock and roll. So as the temperatures decrease, so does my speed.

Driving in the rain is also why I will not modify the motor in my Pantera to the point where it comes on the cam too abruptly, reacts too violently, or is in any way too hard to control. I want my Pantera capable of smoothly pulling away from a stop at low rpm and accelerating smoothly too.

Finally the tread of any tire is designed to efficiently channel water away from the contact patch when the vehicle is traveling forward and possibly backwards. The tread does not channel water when a tire is sliding sideways, which is why it is so hard to regain traction in the wet once the car starts to spin.

Having written all that, Marcus, you know you have my heart felt sympathy. I am glad you were not injured.

George
Last edited by George P
Excellent words to the wise. My sympathies for your loss. I am scouring the forum for wheel tire data and this gives me food for thought. I have a track car with track tires (Toyo RA1) and don't need to push the Pantera to 1+ lateral Gs anyway. I can go 70mph with the stock motor just fine and am currently driving on Michelins from the 1970s in the OEM sizes while I look for new wheels/tires and find that the car composes itself quite well. Since I live in Minnesota I will be looking for some high performance tires that perform well in the rain and at least cold but not snow. That being said, once a mid-engined car starts to go, especially without modern electronic assists, it goes. I'm glad you weren't hurt.
For the curious, a car status update:

After being out-of-country for five weeks without any news, and not certain that the car was not deemed a financial write-off when I left, I dropped in at the body shop today to see what state the car is in now.

The news is good; the car is being fixed. They are still waiting for a couple of suspension parts before it will be mobile, but the body work has started. And they are doing it properly, doing an excellent job.

It looks like 5758 will ride again.

I will post here one more time when I have the car back, with proper kudos to the so far very helpful and friendly people involved.

First kudo must go to ICBC (Insurance Corporation of British Columbia). It would have been very easy for them to say this was just another old wreck. They didn't.

(And a tongue-in-cheek thanks to Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso (whom I consider two of the best half-dozen drivers I know of) for demonstrating before my eyes at the Grand Prix du Canada that anyone can screw up.)
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