Hot Starts are Hard

I have a stock starter and it starts fine cold or hot. What kind of ground do you have for the starter?

Mike

Check the ground strap from the ZF to the chassis. Make sure that it is in good condition (no broken strands), and that the connections are clean and tight.

FWIW, I have 111k miles on my original starter and the engine cranks and starts fine hot or cold.

John

I also added this http://www.panteraplace.com/page12.htm

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Qrtlow:
I have the original 351C starter on my '72 with 35K original miles.
1)It starts instantly in the garage cold.
2)I can shut it down and repeat the instant starts.
3)Drive to the gas station fill up and a hesitant start after 3 turns.
4)Drive it for 20 minutes turn it off and try to restrt it, little or no cranking.
5)leave it for an hour while having dinner at the monthly POCA meeting and it cranks right up.

Something about heat? Should I just replace the starter with a new re-man? I have a new 900 CA battery, engine is stock compression.

Any help would be greatly appreciated because Im scared to death of getting stuck somewhere.

For what it is worth, I have had this problem myself. The solution that I found was to replace the starter. The newer Ford reduction gear starters work great.

quote:

For what it is worth, I have had this problem myself. The solution that I found was to replace the starter. The newer Ford reduction gear starters work great.

Yes, that usually works. What happens is that a lot of factors work together to make starting difficult, including:
-heat
-bad electrical connections
-too much preignition
And a new gear starter will compensate for all this if you're lucky. But it's still compensation instead of correction.

I had the same issue in my Longchamp, tried to correct the above without success, ended up buying a gear starter. And while I hate the metallic grinding sound of it, it starts the car every time...

My similar problem solved with a new Ford PMGR starter. Be sure you specify the 351C with manual transmission (the nose lengths are different for auto/man). It will need to be wired slightly differently than your stock arrangement or you will get run on, but it's very easy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jb1490:
Check the ground strap from the ZF to the chassis. Make sure that it is in good condition (no broken strands), and that the connections are clean and tight.

That's the first thing President Gil told me. I took off the braided copper strap doused it in Tarnex and bolted it back on. No change.

quote:

Originally posted by JFFR:
For what it is worth, I have had this problem myself. The solution that I found was to replace the starter. The newer Ford reduction gear starters work great.

Thanks,
I'm gonna try 1887's extra cable fix and if that doesn't work a new starter.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larryw:
My similar problem solved with a new Ford PMGR starter.

Wow, I just got done reading about the benifits of the new PMGR staters. Going from a 20 lbs to 8 lbs! Reduced demand in current, smaller size...I found one article about Stock starters Have what's referred to as "heat soak" and not functioning until cooled. This sounds plausible, I live in the desert.

Thanks everybody...Update will come soon.

quote:

Originally posted by larryw:
My similar problem solved with a new Ford PMGR starter. Be sure you specify the 351C with manual transmission (the nose lengths are different for auto/man). It will need to be wired slightly differently than your stock arrangement or you will get run on, but it's very easy.

Can you tell me the brand and model number of the gear reduction statrer you used?

You could have poor contacts in the solenoid. This is a cheap replacement. BUT DON'T replace it if you buy a new mini starter with it's own solenoid as you will be removing the original solenoid if that is what you go with. You don't want 2 solenoids in the circuit.
Will

You can save yourself a lot of time & call DB Electric. Many of us have used these starters. So easy to install. You need to follow the wiring instuctions, piece of cake. The starters are very inexpensive, $46-50. I installed mine three years ago. I had the same problems you have now. I hope this helps.

STARTER:

MODEL 3223 from DB Electrical - Great product, great service. I called them rather than using ebay, the phone number is 800-753-2242
P/n 3223

Call them to be sure, i think this is the model 3223: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...fPartsQ5fAccessories

Gear Reduction High Performance Ford Factory
NEW Mini PMGR Starter for Manual Transmissions
Fits many 302 and 351 engines with a manual transmission.

One other thing, the starter bolts onto studs that go into the aluminum bell housing. Double nut the studs (after removing the old heavy starter)so you can remove the studs. You will have to make new ones. Mine were about 1-1/2 inchs too short, as I remember. The new housing is thicker. Very easy using a length of threaded rod. I think i got mine at a local parts store.

SOBill wrote a piece on the wiring of the PMGR units.

I have/had this problem on my Ferrari Testarossa. Problem was due to the starter solenoid getting hot. The starter on a my 12 cylinder is on top of the motor and is subject to alot of heat. I would take a rag & get it soaking wet & wrap the soaked rag around the solenoid. After a few minutes. Car would fire right up. the tolerances of the piston inside the solenoid housing were very "Close" & the heat would cause the piston to expand & "stick". As an experiment, & for your own piece of mind, try this "trick" on your solenoid, you might find that this is your problem......Mark.

+1 on the DB starter solving my hot start problems. Got mine off of ebay.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IndyDave:
You can save yourself a lot of time & call DB Electric.

Just hung up with DB Electric. The guy was real friendly and knew exactly which model I needed before I could finish "351C manual".

I'll post back after I install it. It's only $55 door to door "Geesh.. Cheap"

I've had this same problem, I went over this with Gary Herrig and we tried cleaning the ground contacts near the battery. This sounds like the problem from what you guys described. I even put a heatshield around the starter months back, but looks like this is the way to go.

Started getting old getting caught at the gas station and not being able to start the car and having to push it out of the way. I finally ate up all the battery had and then had to get my gf to drive down and give me a jump.

I guess I should be amazed that a good ground and a stock starter work perfectly in my car, cold or Atlanta hot. Have high compression too! Don’t understand why so many stock things work in my Pantera?

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Qrtlow:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by IndyDave:
You can save yourself a lot of time & call DB Electric.

Just hung up with DB Electric. The guy was real friendly and knew exactly which model I needed before I could finish "351C manual".

I'll post back after I install it. It's only $55 door to door "Geesh.. Cheap"

Good deal, I think I paid about $90.00 for a new Ford reduction gear starter from CarQuest. I did all of the basic things on my car like, timing, grounds and a strong battery. Even ran a ground all the way from the battery to the starter. Non of that really did the job like the reduction gear starter. A stock starter seems to do ok when new, but after a number of years, I think the heat gets to them. Driving one of these cars in the desert does have it share of challenges.

quote:

I guess I should be amazed that a good ground and a stock starter work perfectly in my car, cold or Atlanta hot. Have high compression too! Don’t understand why so many stock things work in my Pantera?

Mike,

That makes two of us.

John