Is this screen too fine of mesh? Opinions?

I get your pain. But, you should bite the bullet and pull the motor and rebuild it. Why take the chance? Start from square one and build the motor you want. Welcome to buying a 40 plus year old car.

Condolences on the spot you're in...

FWIW I can't knock you for wanting the car back together so it can move on it's own power,
get yourself healed up and then some before you go playing Hercules again!

====================

as I see it, you need at least as much free area in the screen to account for the cross section of the pick-up tube pipe

if that makes sense?

rough eyeball guesstimate looks like you're OK there

I'd also get a handful of magnets & line the sides & bottom
of the pan where you can w/o getting
in the way of the pick-up screen

darn those fancy roller components Huh? unfortunately they do fail spectacularly

if your cam is a solid roller you really should run it through a lash inspection, it could reveal / pinpoint a problem if there is one

solid or hydro either way I'd spend a few minutes with a mechanic's listening device when you get it fired. it's amazing what you can hear with a section of electrical conduit on each In & Ex port

I got 2 magnets today, one quarter sized one, and one that's about 2x the size of a silver dollar.

Both will catch any leftover magnetic bits.

My opinion: it is crazy to try to catch or filter everything; further I believe you WILL find particles in the motor - most likely in the oil passages in the crankshaft. (Don't ask how I know!)

Best of luck . . .

I believe you are PERFECTLY fine with that screen mesh size.

As a comparison, take note of how small/fine the mesh is in the attached link photo...Mark

http://www.gtoforum.com/attach...p-pick-up-screen.jpg

I can't see chunky bits getting through the filter, after all that's what it is there for, so there shouldn't be metal bits in the oil passageways eg: crank, bearings, rods ect.

but i would take the manifold off and look at the lifters. The rollers in them might get contamination thrown up by the turbulence of the crank rotating. A roller lifter failure would be a disaster ten times worse than a rocker arm.

Finer screen and magnets are a good idea.

I agree with the earlier post, if the surface area of all the holes in the screen combined is larger than the surface area of the pump inlet tube plus a bit extra it should be ok. Keep a eye on the oil pressure !!

Trying to be a bit scientific... only way to guarantee against further problem is to take it out. Mike doesn't want to do that right now. So what do we recommend to minimize the risk of failure:
:inspect all you can, any broken parts visible
:clean all you can
:magnets may help
:if problem is roller pins, they can't get to crank etc because they'd have to pass oil mesh screen, oil pump and oil filter

So Mike if you don't want to go all in now, minimize the risk and drive it until it either fails or you have time to take engine out. Maybe it'll be perfect. Fingers crossed

Screen is rated by the percentage of flow vs surface area.

That screen is somewhere in the 10% flow vs. surface area, vs about 95% flow in the original screen.

I don't know what the minimal flow to the oil pump should be and I seriously doubt anyone else does either?

I have NEVER seen ANY numbers or studies published on that.



I agree with examining the oil filter you have in there now AND the one that you took out just before that happened.

The pump is before the filter so as it turns out that would tell you what got through the system into the oiling passages. IF ANY, but you would need to show that the metal fragments perforated that filter and went through it into the rest of the system.

The likeliness of that is almost non-existent BUT because of the potential for a disaster you need to be 100% positive scientifically that never happened.


The oil pump and the oil pickup are the "sacrificial" components in this system. You have already discovered why.


The intake manifold HAS TO COME OFF to examine the lifter gallery. It may tell you more?

Visual examination of the lifters and cam lobes are probably sufficient to confirm that there is no lifter or camshaft lobe damage or debris.

The roller pins would have largely been isolated in the cylinder head.

ONE PIECE got through. Considering it's size, that's understandable.


If you can positively identify the piece that you found in the pump as being part of a roller assembly, then you are good to go.

Put the new pump in, your guess on the screen? I would be concerned there though that the medicine is stronger than the disease is?

The oil pump is going to create quite a load on that screen. I would be concerned that eventually it is going to get deformed from that and in addition go back to loading the drive pin in the distributor because of the additional load put on the drive shaft by the higher resisting screen.

It might be best to seek out other solutions to that at the moment?

Call Aviad tomorrow. Explain what the issue is and see if they can advise you on the pickup solution to your issue.

Go with what THEY say. DO NOT GUESS on this.


Failure of roller bearing rocker arms is nothing new.

I would look at the brand that is in there, then maybe consider something like the CompCams ULTRA series?

Many of these roller rocker arms are being built from "off shore components" but assembled here.

The durability of "chinese" bearings has been questioned and should be.

We have many "pencil neck" engineers specking components off of specification charts with no hands on actual knowledge of the components.

Many have quite high "resume credentials" but few have actual "hand to hand combat experiences". These are the types that sit back in a command center and just direct.

These are always the guys that pile on the casualties. They should be avoided at all costs.



There is also a magnet that sits in a cup that you place on the bottom of the oil filter. It is molded to the oil FL-1 filter. You want one of those also. As a matter of fact this would be a good time to consider going to a dual remote oil filter system and put one of those on each filter.

You could also easily plumb in additional screens into a remote system as well. It's something you should seriously consider at this point.

http://www.anplumbing.com/Acce...s/Oil+Filter-56.html



You are also going to need to decide which oil filter to use. Many, including me, are using "racing" filters. They are not as fine a screen but flow more oil and are rated at higher burst pressures. Usually they are fine if you change the oil a lot like in a race car.

These will help also. Lots of types of screens around for obvious reasons.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moroso...em5d54e1c620&vxp=mtr

That's also another point. Treat this engine just like you would a race engine. Lots of oil changes, lots of pulling off of the valve covers to check the valve train.



The only way that you could protect the oil pump from sucking up debris is to go to a dry sump system where the pumps are outside of the pan and there is a screened external in line filter before them.

That is a benefit to that system BUT fitting a dry sump system into a Pantera is very, very difficult. There is no where to put the oil tank. The pumps are belt driven off of the crankshaft and there is no room for that in the firewall. The lines are -12 and -16 and you can't bend them easily and the Pantera chassis gets in the way of the plumbing. It's a very daunting task to persue BUT a POSSIBILITY.

It has been done but it's a monster to do.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
That's also another point. Treat this engine just like you would a race engine. Lots of oil changes, lots of pulling off of the valve covers to check the valve train.

IMHO what you need to think about is whether or not you want to keep your new Super Model mistress as a high maintenance money pit that demands all of you free time

~or~

when you do get around to going through it, which is obviously already over due, maybe detuning it slightly with a mind towards dependability

engines that make that much power do it at a cost, tear down inspections & parts replacement are the norm. valve springs can't do what yours do and last a long time, when a spring fails a valve will float, a lifter will bounce & destroy itself... possibly the sequence of events that leads you to today

I like the idea of a really hot chick that can forego the make-up session & get out the door in jeans & no attitude

some have just a little too much 'attitude'

You CAN NOT have "your cake and eat it too". Whoever "she" is?

The largest issue with this engine is just the mass on the valve train because of the type of lifters used.

It is true that virtually all of the remaining engine families from the '50s (sb Chevy) and '60s (sb Fords) were converted, i.e., re-engineered to roller lifters, yes.

The components used do last longer than their original flat tapped designs did.

One thing that they do not use, that failed here are the roller bearing rocker arms.

I personally feel that "you" (me too) are safer and therefore better off using the ball and fulcrum rocker with a single roller tip.

Every one of these roller rocker arm failures that I have seen in an admittedly shallow life experiences relative to the heavy professional racers, has been on the roller bearing and not the tip.

Some will also advise to use the stainless steel bodied rockers because they have broken the aluminum bodies in half.

It is something I think about and the reality is there are just some people who are so much better at assessing risk (than me).

SOMETIMES, but not always, experience is significant in that analysis?

In other words, "you'z pays yours moneys and you'z takes your's chances" so to speak. Who knows for sure how long anything will last?


Another thought is that the MOST Ford EVER warrantied the famous 289 hp and the 427 was one year or 12,000 miles. That was with those very very mild camshaft profiles. That should speak volumes right there?


One place that MIGHT be an indicator of valve train issues is valve guide wear. The aluminum heads with the manganese-bronze guides SHOULD wear better against the super hard chromium alloy valves vs. the cast iron guides but that does have a lot to do with the rocker arm type you choose to employ.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9ZZgDqzAg

I give it a 75. It's kinda' hard to dance too?

This engine I was told had very low miles on it, and it was solid, and I was not told about any previous issues.

Presently, the engine runs, was not damaged by this ordeal. The oil pump jammed before the engine even made one revolution, so I think I can assume if I clean things out, run the big magnets,and the thinner screen on the pickup, that the engine should be right back to where I bought it, running sweet, but without any more crap in the pan, and preventatives to prevent another similar issue.

So the plan is to button the engine back up and run it.

Next year, when I have enough saved, I plan to rebuild the engine properly.

This decision is not my first choice of what to do, but I am stuck in this situation so I'm going to make the best of it.

My neighbor has offered to help me get the car back together, so it should be back running shortly.

yes roller type lifters are the norm in todays modern production line engines, but they don't run the kind of near insane spring pressures that I suspect* are at work in Mike's Pride & Joy

the factory rollers run safe moderate pressures that will outrun the 100k warranty & then some

the new breed of engine builder will, for a fee, supply the customer an engine that performs beyond yesterday's wildest dreams

unfortunately there are not many components that are capable of lasting long at that kind of output level

yes the pedestal fulcrum roller tip rocker is more dependable that the full roller rocker, but the rollers on the tips crap out all the time too. back the dead stupid simple Flinstone rocker? for unlimited durability, Yes

quality components cost more but are they capable of living in an environment twice as hostile as even they were designed for?

those stresses will find the weakest link, and there will always be a weakest link

Doug if you're interested here's a page where we tried to figure the gpm capability of the M84A pump, each lobe volume is 7.8cc, I wish the thread would've continued

http://www.network54.com/Forum...ctors+with+solid+cam

Mike, I like the job you did with the screen

quote:

Originally posted by 4V & Proud:

those stresses will find the weakest link, and there will always be a weakest link

Doug if you're interested here's a page where we tried to figure the gpm capability of the M84A pump, each lobe volume is 7.8cc, I wish the thread would've continued

http://www.network54.com/Forum...ctors+with+solid+cam

It sure would be nice to have the type of engineering research the big companies do?

I freely admit that I can be my own worst enemy and create stresses both mechanically and in life that were not there before.

My point was on the proposed screen, is it going to restrict flow to such a degree that the structural integrity of it become an issue? That I would predict as an unknown an I personally don't want to go there. I want to deal with the known issues. Not discover new ones at my own expense.

I would say that "ideally" a dry sump system would help a lot here but I'm not sure if that qualifies under the "never set a cannon to kill a mosquito" theory? Plus, it is expensive and cumbersome in any car and an engineering nightmare in a Pantera, but those considerations of sucking up debris into it are handled better. Then you need to worry about the drive belt going away.

Simply put, there is no perfect solution.


You know, the NHA had set the 55 mph speed limit not only to save fuel but to save lives. If you reduced that to zero, you would have probably no more motor vehicle fatalities...probably. I'm sure there would be someone who could find the weakness in that theory and get killed?


You have to come out of "your cave" and take a chance. All anyone can do is position themselves the best that they can?

would it be possible or is it known what the original screen seeve/mesh value was and the new (along with the area)

Ps
counting pixels and using the stated 2X3" size, that looks like 20 mesh screen which would have 49% open area. the opening size should be 0.035"

Sure it's possible but you would have to match it up with a screen flow chart.

Generally speaking the flow is directly proportional to the surface area.

If the screen is blocking 10% of the surface area, then it is reducing the flow by that number.

I would think the original screen is in the 5 to 10% area. You would be surprised how little it takes to block flow.

You could probably approximate the blocked area caused by the screen by measuring the thickness of the wire per "box, then count the boxes and multiply it.

Then measure the maximum available area of the pickup without a screen. Then it's a simple proportion.

Call Aviaid and ask them what they think of adding a finer screen to the pump pickup on your particular engine. Aviaid's screen is very similar to what Ford now uses on its modular motor pickups for their crank-driven gearotor pumps. My guess is, your two screens will cumulatively restrict about 75% of the flow into the pump, but it may still work OK. If you're worried about more steel bits getting into the pump, many of us use magnetic signs cut to size. I have one wrapped around the whole remote oil filter can (backed up by a tiewrap), and I've seen others magnetically held to the bottom & sides of oil pan sumps. No magnetic bits will move around with something like that in the area.

A simple rocker arm option is to save your money and buy a set of stainless steel rocker arms & sell what you have. The aluminum ones can be made of 3 different alloys: 2024, 6061 or chinese-mystery aluminum. I doubt Roger used cheap assemblies- that's not his style. Aluminum assemblies work fine for normal street valve spring pressures. Mine (bought used from a roadracer) have been in my engine trouble-free since 1992 and they are NOT top-of-the-line. Stud mounted rockers WILL NOT WORK with your SVO/Yates heads- they were designed for Jesel roller rockers and lack the production stud bosses.

I believe in an earlier post that Mike mentioned the rocker arms are Jesel...Mark

Yes, the rockers are Jesels in the car.

They've been inspected, and all look perfect.

The pan had a few more roller pins in it. The pan is baffled with flaps, so there's many places for stuff to hide and stay clear of the pickup, until someone comes along and pours 10 quarts of oil really fast into the engine, and the "whoosh" of oil coming down from above washed some of those pieces that were happily living in the corner of the pan up and over one of the lips, and into the center "kill zone" pickup box area.

Upon startup, I suspect there was that tiny chunk that went instantly up into the pump and stopped it dead cold, before the engine even made a full revolution.

SO, of course I'd like to tear the motor down and do a full inspection/refurb/rebuild, but I also think that what damage that happened, whatever it might have been, is/was done. The engine still runs sweet, and no damage from the oil change was caused except to the oil pump (of which I have a new one).

I have 2 supermagnets that are going into the pan that should catch any more steel bits that may still fall from above.

My thinner screen I'm hoping will work to keep any more debris large enough to stop the pump from making it into the pump.

With these measures in play, I think I should be able to button the motor up and run it, and hopefully not have any more issues. No one can say for sure, but I'm doing something about each possibility.

My friend mentioned, that with the thin screen, to at least make sure to wait until the oil is hot to run the motor hard, as cold, thick oil won't flow through the screen the way hot, thin oil will.

Roger was running 20-50 oil in the motor. I planned to run the same, but I can also drop to 10-40 I think without any issue, and that would help with the screen-flow (possible) issue.
Oil pressures were high anyways, 80 at cold idle, 30-40 hot idle, 70-80 going down the road at 2000-2500rpm, so dropping a weight I don't think will hurt anything, and will definitely flow through the screen easier.

Bottom line is, I'd rather let the engine warm up for 15 minutes, than chance having another piece of crap stop the oil pump and go through this all over again.

Next year, I'll pull both the motor and box and go through both of them, new valve springs, valve job, hone, rering, new bearings (if necessary, or even just a full machine shop rebuild. Whatever it takes.

Right now, I have an engine that I can't afford to rebuild, and I think will continue to work fine with the mods I've made. Everything else checks out. Valvetrain is good. so I'm going to buton the motor up and put it to work, as Roger told me to do.

Again, this is NOT what I want to do, not what I was told it was, and not what I thought I was buying, but this is where I am now and this is what I'm going to do.

quote:

I have 2 supermagnets that are going into the pan that should catch any more steel bits that may still fall from above.

How do you intend to secure those magnets?

Larry

Ultimately Roger made a mistake in not removing the oil pan. If he did, there would have been no issue at all.

We all make mistakes. it happens.

Button it all back up and run it. It should be like nothing ever happened.

I'd recommend that you follow Bosswrench's advice and check with the pump manufacturer about the screen mesh size. The finer the screen, the easier it is to get clogged which doesn't have a good outcome. I don't think you want to be pulling the pan periodically to clean the screen. Oil can get "gunky" unless you plan on changing it at pretty short intervals. Also a good qustion on how you are securing the magnets.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:

quote:

I have 2 supermagnets that are going into the pan that should catch any more steel bits that may still fall from above.

How do you intend to secure those magnets?

Larry

Hello Larry; I personally would place a "sheet magic"

http://www.dickblick.com/produ...ible-magnetic-sheet/

cut to the dimensions of the bottom of the oil pan & attach to the OUTSIDE of the pan.

The magnetic strength of the magnetic being more than sufficient to penetrate the relative thin gauge of the oil pan.

Then during the subsequent future oil change, run the motor to heat the oil to operating temperature, REMOVE the pan magnet & "Hope" any metal particles are flushed out with the flow of the draining oil...Mark

I had planned on putting the magnets inside the pan. One is the size of a quarter that I was going to place in the "kill box" right below the pickup, the other I was going to place on the bottom where it was flat, and it takes nearly a prybar to get it unstuck. I figure I'll just let them catch whatever they catch, and when I go through the motor in a year or so I'd clean them then.

I plan on doing oil changes VERY often, there won't be oil old enough to get gunky.

I'm considering going from 20-50 down to 10-40 so the screen won't be an issue with restriction. My oil pressures were really high with the 20-50 so I figure that should be OK.

One thing is for sure. There's bearing bits that have been in and gone through that motor, one piece stopped it dead cold. I am NOT going to allow that to happen again. The only way I see that happening is with screen mesh that's small enough that the roller bearing bits cannot fit through it.

I can envision more roller bearing bits still in the lifter galley, if they wash down, I'm looking at this same failure all over again.

I did a test today, pouring oil through the screen, and it doesn't just fall through the screen, but I figure when it's hot, it should flow through the screen without issue. It just means warm the car up REAL GOOD before driving hard, which is something I have always done in any case.

After owning and racing an air cooled Porsche, I know how long it takes the oil to get up to temp, usually 10-15 minutes. On my gauge, after 180 I figure I'll be good.

If I notice oil pressure loss at high rpm's then I'll have to figure something different out.

I'm looking forward to getting the car back together. It's going to take some time, my neighbor is a busy guy, and I can only do so much, but Snow White will run again, with extra safety measures in place to prevent the same issue from ever happening again.

In a year or so, I plan to rebuild the engine (probably detune it) and the gearbox as well.

I'll be a happy guy when she fires up and I get to give her a good beating.

"Killbox" Magnets.

I may move the small quarter sized one offset slightly so it makes full contact. As it sits, dead center, there's a groove in the pan, so the magnet isn't sticking with 100% of it's contact area.

I'm thinking offset just enough so the magnet sits completely flat to the pan.

I can also clean and scuff and JB Weld the magnets in place. I think this also would be safe to do, the parts are under no load, and are already doing everything they can to stay stuck where they are, but the JB Weld might be good insurance.

Pan went on, we measured and there's like 5/16" from the pickup to the bottom of the pan, which I think is good.

Anything floating around should get picked up by the magnets, and anything the magnets miss will not make it past the screen. Both magnets are placed outside of the "kill box", I didn't want to take a chance of one of the magnets popping up and sticking to the pickup.

I;ll just be taking it very easy during warmup until my oil is hot, and hopefully won't have any oil restrictions from the finer screen. I really think I'm fine with the finer screen espcially when the oil gets hot.

I watched a video about aftermarket Melling oil pumps, and they all used the same sized screens as the size of the screen I just installed on my oil pickup.

So in that regard, I think I'm OK with the thinner mesh screen I installed on my pickup.

do you have a pic of the original mess (similair to the pic of the fine)

did you measure the wire diameter of the fine mesh you installed. Copunting pixels, I would think the fine mesh was a #20, but there are several standard wire sizes for that size. (the percent opening though only varies a few percent no matter)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAHSwW3QyA0



Here's the vid I saw. If these pumps can supply oil to race cars with the same size screen as I'm using, through the hole in their pumps, which is Much smaller than my square pickup, I think I'm OK.

Mike,

Did youy say that you were putting the fine mesh screen over the normal screen on the pump? If so, doesn't that add some flow resistance without providing any benefit? (i.e., anything getting thru the fine mesh will go right through the coarser mesh.)

Yes, I just formed the finer mesh screen around the old pickup, old screen and all.

The pickup box is a little over 2"x3", and it is what it is.

I am NOT going to go through what I just went through again. So if I have to warm the car up for 10 minutes before taking off, so be it.

The experts I've asked said it should be fine, if there were to be a problem it would be from revving the engine with cold oil, something I won't ever do.

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
Mike,

Did youy say that you were putting the fine mesh screen over the normal screen on the pump? If so, doesn't that add some flow resistance without providing any benefit? (i.e., anything getting thru the fine mesh will go right through the coarser mesh.)

OK, today is oil day again!

The first oil change was to Joe Gibbs Hotrod 15-50.

I've researched oil pretty heavily, and I know I want to stick with regular Dino oil, not synthetic.

High levels of zinc, phosphorous, and ZDDP are my main concern.

Previous owner ran 20-50.

Now, since I've gone and installed this finer mesh screen, and that if it were to cause an issue, it would only be from high revving with cold oil..

I plan to run basically the same weight oil (20-50).

Now,, it gets to freezing here in the winter, not crazy cold, but we have many frosty mornings, and the occasional cold spell that cracks pipes up here in NorCal.

My first oil change that started the whole fiasco (engine not starting, weeks of troubleshooting, to eventually find metal bits in the engine from a failure that was not disclosed to me when I bought the car) was Joe Gibbs 15-50 "hotrod" oil, non synthetic, with high levels of all the good stuff.

Do you think that IF, say the screen DID cause restriction with the cold oil, that the 15-50 would be better than 20-50?

15-50 would be thinner when cold right?

I wish I could find Swepco oil locally. That stuff is the shiznit.

I'm sure I'll be fine as long as i don't rev it to 6000 rpm upon startup, and allow the oil to reach operating temp (above 180 in my book).

Honestly, I'd rather have the oil run hot occasionally than too cool.

During the 2-3 hours of enjoyment I've had driving Snow White, oil temps ran at around 200-210 and went up to 220 when I drove it hard (the one or 2 times I actually romped on it) which is perfect in my book, and if I take it to a track day and the oil temps go up to 250-270 every once in a while, I'd rather see that than add a cooler and run cold oil temps.

So what do you think? Do you think the 15-50 would be more prudent to run than 20-50?

Do some oils run thicker than others given the same weight?

My requirements pretty much run it down to Joe Gibbs 15-50, or Brad Penn 20-50.