Longchamp so far

Jani,

I love the colour combo, very rare. And don't worry about them sills. Find a good sheetmetall man and you're good to go.

Mine only had few hundred hours of welding and body preparation in it so consider yourself lucky if this is the only metallwork to be done.

How is your Deauville Dutchie? Last photos you put out showed it almost ready. Been driving it yet?

Yes, nice colour.

I'm having problems uploading photo's of my car!

Any of you guys know which model Ford the Longchamp engine sump (oil pan) is from as I'd like to purchase a new one from Summit or whoever for my new engine build?

Thanks.

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

I don´t mind the color itself that much, but the combination of the interior and exterior colors is making me consider other options. And now Dutchie is hailing the combo!
Hey I like freaky seventies shit too, but I´m not so sure about this...

Phil,

I think the sump is from Mustang, but I´ll ask from my mechanic tomorrow.

Jani,

My deauville is driveable but not taxed end tested so very illegal to drive at this point.
It is in storage now since we rebuild end extended our house. Still some tidying up to do, such as painting most of the house top to bottom!

No driving this year but a nice winter project to look forward to.

Jani,

Try to find out which year/s Mustang.

I do believe it was the Cobrajet Mustang around 69/70 but I could be wrong.

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

Phil,

My mechanic said it looked just like "a normal 4V oil pan". He also said that 4v oil pans are different than 2v (baffels, etc.). He said that it is probably the same as in CJ mustangs of that period.

I´m pretty sure the pan is the same as in Panteras.

Summit do not seem to differentiate between 2V's & 4V's so all I can imagine is that the oil pans are the same.

I will go for a stock pan after I check I don't need clearance for my 6" Chevy rods as I'm building a 408 stroker.

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

My mechanic said also that you can´t get real 4v pans anymore(and that is why we are fixing mine). If I were you I´d ask the question from George in the engine forum.

Added some photos. No pattern parts used, that´s for sure... All the rusty parts have been relpaced. I still need to make/get made new bumpers, and the front air dam. then it´s off to the paint shop. I will probably stick with the current color, as I can´t make up my mind with what to replace it with, and due monetary reasons.

Engine and transmission should go back in within two weeks.

New photo with the engine and transmission back in. Also modifications on the front end in the spirit of Tjaarda´s original drawings.

Jani,

Where's the photo's?

What front end mod's???

Phil

Phil,

I added one to the gallery. It´s the 13th picture... I modified the body between the front grille and the lights so the car won´t look like it´s home made. It required also new mounting points for the bonnet hinges. If you have seen the original drawing of the preproduction brochure, the front end details were quite different.

Love the bondo sandwich picture.

My first Rapier had a similar, rusty sill, bondo and rusty sill mess. But that is a work of art!

Yes, that filler is something else.

I hope my car is built with a little less!

Would of been nice to have had more light with that photo as I cannot see the modifications you state.

While you have the empty engine bay how about relocating the battery to the trunk?

I'm intending to do this with a good gell cell.

Phil

The bondo pictures are from the parts we cut off from each side of the grille, so we could fabricate the mods I was planning (the sills themselves were waaay more rusty). We could not do it to the extent that it was in the early Tjaarda drawings, as there some structural parts behind them, but I´m fairly happy with the results. Have to get some better pictures, when the grille is back in the car.

Phil,

Relocating the battery makes sense, but at the moment my philosphy is to restore the car mechanically (with some exeptions inside the engine, for reliability, and for ´72 power levels). In the future I could see a conversion to manual, and lightening / upgrading the engine. At that stage, I´m sure the battery would travel too.

"Progress" report...

Alltough it looks like nothing has happened, there seems to light at the end of the tunnel. Of course it might be daylight or a train..

In any case this week should see the front suspension finished, fuel tanks installed, electrical gremlins banished, and interior put back together. Next week should be for the manufacture of the rear bridge exhaust sections, test run, and then to paint shop to make it semi-presentable.

I added a couple of photos: One detail shot, one general mayhem one.

The painter came to see the car and we came to a conclusion that the car was probably factory made with sloping front end treatment*, unlike any Longchamp I´ve ever seen.

*The hood sweeps lower towards the front with no sharp angle change about 15cm before the grille.

I´m not sure that makes sense to any of you, as my vocabulary is missing a word to describe it at the moment, but just check the front end photos, and see if you notice what I mean.

Please tell me you're going to get rid of that black crap inside the engine bay?

When I get around to stripping my car it will look like this:

http://www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk/index.html

Click on cars.

then use the drop-down menue to Pantera plus other nice cars.

Acid strip then electro-phoretic primering.

NO MORE RUST - EVER.

Phil

Make sure you watch their video and turn your speakers on.

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

quote:

Originally posted by Transmitter Man:
When I get around to stripping my car it will look like this:

http://www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk/index.html

I would love to do this to my Pantera when the time comes to restore it. Is there anything like this available in the States?

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Transmitter Man:
Please tell me you're going to get rid of that black crap inside the engine bay?

Sure, Phil. I throughly cleaned the black crap off and then replaced it with new black crap...

The process you described is not available here, nor is practical for the scale of my project.

I´d just like to drive it for a change...

Michael,

Yes, you've had a similar treatment for years. I think there's at least one franchise dealership with outlets around the US.

http://www.redi-strip.com/page2.htm

There must be others.

Jani,

I know what you mean. that's why I decided to but the very best condition car I could afford and have a rolling restoration. Actually I call it a rolling modification.

Once I've run out of money doing all the mod's I then intend taking her off the road and put the old girl through this bare shell body restoration knowing that all the mechanical parts have replaced or refurbished.

I hope this can happen over this winter.

I've located several paint shops which have a rotisserie.

By the time I complete the car I would of been able to afford a GT5S or Si, but that is life!

Phil

Phil,

I think you have a bad case of Longchampitis! The only cure is lock up the GTS and buy a Smart car or a Vespa scooter and wean yourself off V8 grunt before it finishes you!

S

Was supposed to drive the car to the painter today. Gave up at 22:30 when the fuel pump electrics started to invent new troubles. Before that the sound was quite impressive, as the exhaust were missing the middle section. Cops wouldn´t have liked it for sure...

In any case: Very busy at work, wife due to deliver a baby anyday, and the car giving me hassles I really don´t need at the moment. Depressed...

Added a photo of the car as I left it today

Finally got to drive it!!!

Exhaust fitted, fuel pump grounding problems sorted, drove it to the painters.

The engine is strong, and the transmission sharp. The drive itself was a work in progress kind of experience, as the doors had no seals(nor trim), some of the sound proofing is missing, and the electrics are still requiring some finishing touches. But I drove it.

New things to do:

Tacho doesnt work. I have a hazy recollection that it might have been non-operative when I bought the car.

Temp gauge doesn´t indicate.

Power steering needs adjustment (way more assistance to the left). The system itself is nice, as it reduces the assistance with speed.

But it runs...

Added a photo to the gallery

...and you think you got electrical gremlins.

How about the fuel gauge reading full on the left and empty on the right tank regardless of what level of fuel you have in either tank.

Yes, I've checked the grounds, check the fuel senders are working OK and that the wirewound resistors have not gone open circuit and still no operating gauge.

Don't you just love your car?

I came home in my daily hack E39 530d and looked what had taken my space? How dare he.



Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

I am not surprised about the electrical. The thing you have to remember is that I think that the pantera harnesses were done outside the factory, but then it came to the Longchamp or the other cars, they were created by one guy. He would only show up when there was a car for him to work on, he never worked on the panteras, Testa would not allow it. Anyway he would show up, and work on creating them in the back where I would be doing my painting. He was very lazy, and there was a harness block, you know the kind that would used to create a harness for all the cars. If the order sheet listed something not on the harness block, he would complain in English to me. He often would do that part last, and I saw him tape the wires on to the harness.
At the time, I would mention it to my aunt, but I do not think she did anything. There was this weird pecking order on the floor, and you would have thought I would have had more power, but the notice was sent to all the "department heads" that I was to be treated no better than anyone else, so I was treated worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Transmitter Man:
...and you think you got electrical gremlins.

How about the fuel gauge reading full on the left and empty on the right tank regardless of what level of fuel you have in either tank.

Yes, I've checked the grounds, check the fuel senders are working OK and that the wirewound resistors have not gone open circuit and still no operating gauge.

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

Well,I drove the whole trip on a empty tank... Only one of the tanks was filled up, but the car runs on both tanks. When switching tanks the fuel pumps are switched (you can hear it), so maybe the valve is modified or faulty, or my Longchamp runs without fuel!!

quote:

Originally posted by Wellis:
I am not surprised about the electrical. The thing you have to remember is that I think that the pantera harnesses were done outside the factory, but then it came to the Longchamp or the other cars, they were created by one guy. He would only show up when there was a car for him to work on, he never worked on the panteras, Testa would not allow it. Anyway he would show up, and work on creating them in the back where I would be doing my painting. He was very lazy, and there was a harness block, you know the kind that would used to create a harness for all the cars. If the order sheet listed something not on the harness block, he would complain in English to me. He often would do that part last, and I saw him tape the wires on to the harness.
At the time, I would mention it to my aunt, but I do not think she did anything. There was this weird pecking order on the floor, and you would have thought I would have had more power, but the notice was sent to all the "department heads" that I was to be treated no better than anyone else, so I was treated worse.

Now that´s an endorsment for a re-wire if there ever was one. Unfortunately it has to be at a later date for me.

Wellis,

Did you ever manage get the factory build instructions for the Longchamp, that you mentioned about earlier?

I really like the way your Longchamp looks in profile without bumpers! Have you considered leaving it that way?

Michael

Michael,

I will be creating a prototipo clone which has bumpers that won´t have any overlap with the fenders, hence the welded closed bumper mounting holes in the picture. I will have to manucature the bumpers and fron valance by myself, as only the prototype had them, but that has been the target from the day one.

Jani,

I look forward to seeing the completed project. Do you have a timeframe for when it will be done? I saved the bumperless picture to my computer, it just looks so cool like that.

Michael

Michael,

The plan is to have the car on the road this month so I can do an extended shake down to major systems, so the car will be safe and reliable for cross continent trips. As far as the exterior of the car goes, the prototipo conversion will happend during the winter. FOr this season I will be driving with intermediate bumpers, which are based on the 3000-series ones with some (reversible)mods.

Mechanically next winter will probably include: Rear suspension overhaul, brake overhaul, refinishing the wheels (+new tires), reconditionig the A/C.

My goal is to drive to the the De Tomaso meet at the factory in the summer of 2009, with the car´s exterior in the prototipo spec with some small exceptions. According to the Google maps, the distance from my home to the factory is
2 628 km...

The car is off from the paintshop, and the tinkering continues..

The QP III front spindles were the same as my Longchamps, besides one thing, which will require some minor machining of the hub. My intermidate bumper plan will not work as well as I thought. I will try to make it semi-presentable, or will drive without bumpers.

Pictures to follow when I get the car outdoors.

The hub has been machined, and the car should be ready for the "endurance testing" next week, but that will be delayed as my son was born today at 19:00.

Will be taking care of my wife and my children.

Just had a nice glass of Balvenie Port Wood 21 years and a good cigar. Life is good.

Jani, congraulations on the birth of your son !! Yes indeed, life is good. Chuck

Congratulations, Jani on the joyous occasion! I hope he is always happy and healthy! I also wish for a speedy recovery for your wife.

Michael

Added a picture.

Electrics are on the final strech: Tacho and temp gauge work, but now the oil pressure gauge took a vacation. Tomorrow is for engine tuning, and there might be slight chance that I get it on the road soonish...!

I´ll be driving around with series 3000 bumbers, but with no tips. From certain angles you can now get a feel of how the car will look with the prototipo bumpers.

Need to try to find the time to do the little things in the interior, but most likely will just drive it for a while, and just tell everyone who finds faults "It´s not ready yet, so f*** off!"..

Congratulation Jani on the birth of your son.

I'm just an uncle five times over and happy with the on/off switch:-)

Phil
79 Longchamp GTS 3061

Congratulations Jani.

A baby is just perfect for the back seat, not room for much more behind the driver's seat when I stretch my legs...

Thank you all for congrats.

Been extremely hectic lately, both home and work.

Haven´t had any chance of doing anything to the car but we finally got it drivable, so could go to the Cruise-Night. Which was fun, until the radiator boiled....

Added a photo.

Not happiest of the campers at the moment.

I was pretty happy with the performance thou´. Never took it above 4000 rpm, but the rebuilt and upgraded engine felt strong, and the rear wheels slippery...

Spring is coming soon, so the prepartions have began.

The prototipo bumpers are under construction at the moment, and I am fairly certain that I´ve figured out how to make the rubber parts for the bumpers too.

To do list before the driving season begins:

Prototipo front valance
Precautionary brake overhaul
Dual electric fans to replace the visco single one
Custom middle sections for the exhausts
Refinishing the wheels
New tires
Replace the electric mirrors with Ford sport mirrors
Paint...?

A/C overhaul will be probably for the next season.

P.s. The fuel consumption for the 500km journey to hibernation was 18 litres/100km. Better than I was expecting, considering the fine tuning isn´t done yet.

Looks great! Keep the updates and pictures coming. I love the color.

And remember...

Those Italians are known for their sculpture.

HI
Looks like you were thorough when fixing the rust. I've band-aided my panels, this year I'll finish the job. I got a little scared of what I'll find, looking at your pictures.

The visible rust on my car is in the c-column, around the bracket that's welded on on the inside to hold the rear window openers. And 30-50 cms below, just above rear wheel well, it rusts from the inside as well. This goes for both sides of the car. Maybe you should check your car in those areas? My car looked OK until bubbles came, the nice Italians that had the car before me painted over bondo without welding first...

I can send pictures if you want

Added a photo about the rear bumper build.

A photo of the front bumper, as it is now. Not the final version, but we´re getting there. The plan is to have the design finalized by next saturday.

Edited the front bumper photo, and added a rear bumper photo. Design is frozen, and should be ready in about two weeks. I´m very exited about the progress.

Rear bumper is ready for the paint shop.

Bumpers are ready for the paint shop! Here´s the side view. Car goes to paint shop on saturday, where the final mods will be done, before a new coat of Celeste Chiaro Metallic will be applied. After that the prototipo front dam will be created, and the car will be a pretty faithful recreation (externally) of the 1972 Turin auto salon prototipo..

Car has been delivered to the paint shop. Deadline for the completion is the first of may, and the color is Celeste chiaro metallic. Happy with how the bumpers turned out. IMHO they look so good in bare metal, that I am almost regretting painting them. Paint shop will preform some surgery: The front grille was tilted forward on the production models, so mine will be modified to be more upright as in the prototipo.

The front of the car looks a bit light at the moment, but I am sure that after the front air dam has been added, grille tilted, and the side signals deleted, it will be a bit more Kirk Douglas...

P.s. The lack of comments is starting to worry me. Does every one think I´m uglifying my car?..

3/4

Jani,

Fear not. You are doing a great job and many of us are following with interest and respect. I think the car is going to look great and I hope one day to add a Longchamp to my collection, perhaps even as my daily fair weather driver.

Keep up the posts and photos of your work!

Mark

Mark is absolutely right, any sensible Pantera owner deep down inside wants a Longchamp :-) For those who don't know, the Longchamp is the best handling sedan I've ever driven...

Jani, don't throw out your old bumpers, I might want to buy them one day, they're like mine but look in better shape.

Reminds me of when I was close to killing a guy 20 years ago. I was fixing my 68 Camaro SS, and another guy close by was doing the same to his 68 Camaro. I was on a budget, apparently he was not. His front fenders had a little rust, so he ordered new ones instead of fixing the rust. Guess what he did to the old ones, the originals? He jumped up and down on them and threw them out. Needless to say he and I didn't have many friendly conversations despite our similar cars...

Thank you for the comments. It´s been a long project by my standards, and sometimes I wonder that I´m the only one to whom it makes any sense..

Mikael,

My bumpers are in excellent condition. They are not the originals, as my car is a 2000-series car, and had the blade style bumpers from the factory. At some point the car went back to the factory for an update to a 3000-series (externally: Bumpers, mirrors, light trim). I´m not sure what I´ll do with the 3000-series bumpers, but rest assured, I won´t throw them away. I´ll either keep them, or sell them to someone who would need them.

The car back to Helsinki. Really happy with the paint work. Gorgeous color, especially when the sun comes out. Did a "transport installation" after picking it up from the paint, so I could drive it to Helsinki (450km..). The bumpers haven´t been fine tuned for photos, since they will come off again next week, so that the rubber parts can be manufactured. Getting close to finish..

Another photo: Note the prototipo-like upright front grille. Signals are clear, unlike in the prototipo, but I prefer them like this.

Jani,

The bodywork looks excellent, and it it should be interesting to see the finished result with the bumper rubbers fitted. I agree with an earlier comment you made, that the bumpers may look better in a chrome finish rather than the body colour, but then it would not replicate the prototipo.

Stuart

Stuart,

I must say that I was a bit disappointed when I put the painted bumpers on, but I´m not giving up on them yet, as I think the rubber and polished alloy will make a difference. At the moment there is a bit of "had to paint them, since the chrome was falling off?" feel about them.

I will try to recreate the prototipo as faithfully as is reasonble. Some things will be different, as they would cost a lot to change, and I don´t think anyone would even notice them. Some things will be different, as I think they would´ve been changed for the production version in any case, even if the concept itself would´ve been the same. Interior will not be changed at all.

The clear signals are OK, IMO as the car has spent the first 32 years of it´s life in Italy...

Hi Jani,
paint looks great. Agree that we need to see the bumpers finished to decide if they worked. But ultimately it doesn't matter whether we like them or not, as long as you do.

It is nice though to see someone nearly finished! My pantera is in for paint at the moment and I hope to be able to have a 1st drive of it soon!

best of luck with the finishing
Peter

Bumpers are finished and I´m pretty happy with the looks.

Unfortunately there is a stuck valve in the engine, so I´m pretty pissed. It seems that the machine shop that my mechanic uses had an employee (now an ex-employee) that didn´t quite cut it, so the heads are coming off again... Hopefully for the last time.

Only silver cloud is that the machine shop is willing to fix the situation ASAP, so everything should be fine by early next week.

Still frustated and depressed, though.

My Longchamp has a collapsed lifter, so stationary as well. You're not alone :-)

Mikael,

Pretty good luck that it didn´t happend on the trip to Italy..

Bumpers finished 1

Bumpers finished 2

Bumpers finished 3

Bumpers finished 4

Fire at will...

Jani,

Great to see your car finished. The bodywork looks very well done, especially noticeable in the front overhead photo.

Makes me think I should do some work on my LC, but after following your trials and tribulations, it does make one think twice before starting!

I did an experiment on my car the other day, ducting cold air into the intake. It helped performance more than I was expecting. I think Longchamps do get hot under the low bonnet and do benefit from this relatively simple mod.

Stuart

Long time no post..

Bought a house made in 1952, so Longchamp has been neglected. After installing proper tires I have been able to expertiment with the performance a bit more, and now I feel that my first speeding ticket is just around the corner... Pretty happy with the tires(Michelin XWX 215/70 VR15). They definately transformed the the driving experinece. Highly recommended.

Great news!!

I am going to have chance to show my car to the Mr. Tom Tjaarda himself, when he visits Finland in may.

Long time no hear...

Well, since my last post I had the best day ever as a classic car enthusiast. My Longchamp was entered in to the largest classic car show in Finland as entry by the main sponsor. This was due them finding out the story behind my car and the fact that Tom Tjaarda was the guest of honor. They kept my car as a suprise for Tom, so you can imagine his suprise when he saw it... "What the... But this car doesn´t exist anymore?..." When interviewed in the show Tom engouraged everyone to check out his favourite car on the show, my Longchamp.

I met Tom after the official program, and I showed him how I made the my clone via all the pictures I managed to gather. Tom was flabbergasted how I was able get it so right with only magazine pictures("It´s perfect"). He had some great stories about some of them (especially about the drawings..). He signed the original promodraft of the Longchamp for me, and we spoke quite a bit about flying (Tom´s an enthusiast, I´m a pro), and then we wished the best for both of us when we departed (Tom requested proper photos of the car, which I naturally complied with). After Tom departed, I was left standing by my car trying to take it all in, all the blood, sweat and tears finally validated by the authority unlike anyone else, when an unknown beautiful woman woke me up from my stupor By saying "It can´t get better that that, can´t it?".

It sure can´t.
.
.
.
Unfortunately, the role I planned for my Longchamp did not materialize (As a Grand Turismo between Helsinki and Lago Di Como), so I was planning to sell it, when a teenager rear ended(200 meters from my garage) it while a friend of mine was driving it back from a car show that I had created (with my friends). The end result was that the car was totalled by the insurance company, for the price of the paint job, exhaust system and some body work. I got a fair price for it ( a fraction of my investment, though), and the insurance company sold the car in less than a day...

Unfortunately the insurance company managed to break the front bumper too while transporting the car to the new owner, so the prototipo was no more, as the new owner bought my 3000-series bumpers, and restored the car back to stock (with the exception of the front end modifications, that you have to be an expert to notice).

So the 2133 lives on, but not as a prototipo clone, and I´m a Maserati and a Lotus man nowdays. The reason that I´m writing this post is (in addition to the Seagrams VO), that I couldn´t never have accomplished what I did without the help of this bb (+Roland, who is no longer here, and Santiago).

I really do hope that you appriciate the special community that you have here. I sure do, even though I´m not a part of it anymore.

Thank you.

P.s. Oh, I almost forgot... Thank you George!!! I am perfectly aware that there are almost no Longchamps and Deauvilles in the States. Thank you for providing the platform for these discussions. I am certain that you have saved quite a few of these cars from oblivion..

P.p.s. The main sponsor was the premier classic car magazine, that did a lead story about my car car and Tom Tjaarda on the following issue. So my car is immortal. Especially, as a local modelling enthusiast made a perfect replica of my car from an eighties Thunderbird in 1/24 scale...

Jani,

Thank YOU for YOUR contribution to this community. We have all enjoyed following the progress of your Longchamp and I am surely not alone in feeling sad that it ended in a crash, but happy that she will live on in another set of hands.

I wish you the best in your future projects and really hope we see you back here again. Maybe with a Pantera, or other DeTomaso.

Mark

I concur with what Mark said. We will miss you but I too hope that your deTomaso days are not over.

Please pop in from time to time to check on us.

William

There are three (3) different 351-C pans sold as stock. All the pans hold 5 qts and all are front sump. One is a simple bucket used on trucks. #2 has a rudimentary baffle around the pump pickup. The 3rd type used on Boss-351 and 351-HO has the baffle around the pickup as well as a simple scraper on the sloping rear part of the pan.

Not sure how hard you guys drive your sedans but in a stock Pantera with narrow tires, cornering forces are high enough to slosh oil away from the pump pickup, starving the crank bearings and eventually causing engine failure. So we use a 10-quart fully baffled pan from Aviaid; some engine shops in the U.S will not sell an engine with a stock pan to Pantera owners due to the large number of engine failures. It fits as stock. In the case of a 351-W, Aviaid has a similar pan for that engine too.

Your Longchamp now found a new home in Modena, it will be restored to the prototipo look. Prototipo Bumpers are already in the process of being restored to fit #2133 again. It's her second chance, not to be missed ;-)