Thanks for the report,it makes for a very interesting and educational read.
My next engine is with shaft Jessels, and I notice that they say correct pushrod length is crutial, that is why they give you an adjustable pushrod, to set the correct length. With the advise given in the report I will put that technology towards my new engine.
Thanks, and good luck.
For the record I also believe it was wrong length pushrod. I have seen this before on engines down under.
Good luck.
Guys
First ... thanks for keeping things respectful. That's my biggest concern. I don't want members hurling insults at one another.
Second, I agree it would be nice to keep this thread open and give MME a chance to respond, so I'll do that. But I ask your cooperation. The chances of MME responding will be much better if the tone of the thread is not combative, accusatory, derogatory, etc. Give MME some respect too.
Lets stay focused on getting to the bottom of why the parts failed, that is something everyone can learn from. Its obvious to everyone here there is a dispute between MME & Chris, if that dispute spills back into the thread, the conditions will deteriorate & at that point any open dialog about why the parts failed will come to a grinding halt. Lets allow that dispute to remain private, and make MME feel welcome to discuss the parts failure & findings of Jessel. Deal?
cowboy from hell
First ... thanks for keeping things respectful. That's my biggest concern. I don't want members hurling insults at one another.
Second, I agree it would be nice to keep this thread open and give MME a chance to respond, so I'll do that. But I ask your cooperation. The chances of MME responding will be much better if the tone of the thread is not combative, accusatory, derogatory, etc. Give MME some respect too.
Lets stay focused on getting to the bottom of why the parts failed, that is something everyone can learn from. Its obvious to everyone here there is a dispute between MME & Chris, if that dispute spills back into the thread, the conditions will deteriorate & at that point any open dialog about why the parts failed will come to a grinding halt. Lets allow that dispute to remain private, and make MME feel welcome to discuss the parts failure & findings of Jessel. Deal?
cowboy from hell
quote:Originally posted by accobra:
Something else to think about.
1. Where the pedestals the correct ones ? where they the correct hieght ?
2. Where the heads milled the proper hieght by CHI ?
All this would have contributed to the incorrect geometry not just a push rod too long.
The rest of the surge and bounce theory with the wrong retainers caused the overheating on the shaft and rocker arm potentially combined with the bolt caught on the last thread ... too bad we didnt still have a broken rocker for it to be tested for stress cracks and see if over heating was the cause ? hint hint.
Ron
Yea, I agree. The too long or too short of the push rod and the 1-1/2 thread business is still confusing to me. What is the difference in length of the push rod between 1-1/2 threads and 3-1/2 threads? Is that in the pedistal height or is that in the head gasket thickness?
I'm going to stick with stud mounted rockers. I understand them much better.
I didn't know that a spring can have too much clearance.
I think the reason is that these are some of the things that normally don't get looked at on an under 7000 rpm engine. I think that this is 7 to 10 thousand rpm race detailing.
I'm thinking that I wouldn't count on the springs being wrong for the application. The retainers being steel or titanium, what does it really matter? The important thing for me would be to match a CompCams retainer and a CompCams spring. They may have been the best choice for the application.
Exactly where in the manufactuters specs are the spring oscillations specified?
Doug - Let explain why the retainer mismatch matters. It was not a mismacth simply of material.
The tool steel retainer was wrong based on FIT, not just material. The retainer found on the spring did not fit snugly inside the diameter of the spring set. This then permits the spring and valve a greater a range of movement contributing to the lack of control exhibited in the valve train.
When checked with Manley it turns out that the only Manley part that fits that spring set correctly is a titanium retainer.
So again this demonstrates another instance where parts selected were not the correct ones.
None of the valve train parts inclusive of the cam were chosen or specified by me. I left it up to the engine builder.
The tool steel retainer was wrong based on FIT, not just material. The retainer found on the spring did not fit snugly inside the diameter of the spring set. This then permits the spring and valve a greater a range of movement contributing to the lack of control exhibited in the valve train.
When checked with Manley it turns out that the only Manley part that fits that spring set correctly is a titanium retainer.
So again this demonstrates another instance where parts selected were not the correct ones.
None of the valve train parts inclusive of the cam were chosen or specified by me. I left it up to the engine builder.
I get what you are saying.
You have the part number of the spring. What is the recommended retainer? If these are all part of the "cam kit" then the argument should be with the cam manufacturer?
Maybe all of these "issues" contributed to the failure but I'll be you a nickel that the design of the arm gets modified so that this can't happen again. Bottom line, the arms failed and they shouldn't have. Use the stainless steel roller rockers instead of aluminum. Greater tensile strength. Would they have failed too? I don't know?
Yes. You paid the builder to make the RIGHT decisions for you. Got it!
You have the part number of the spring. What is the recommended retainer? If these are all part of the "cam kit" then the argument should be with the cam manufacturer?
Maybe all of these "issues" contributed to the failure but I'll be you a nickel that the design of the arm gets modified so that this can't happen again. Bottom line, the arms failed and they shouldn't have. Use the stainless steel roller rockers instead of aluminum. Greater tensile strength. Would they have failed too? I don't know?
Yes. You paid the builder to make the RIGHT decisions for you. Got it!
Doug - The recomended part number for that spring set specifies a titanium retainer. According to Manley there is only one correct part number made by them for that spring set.
Again this why I am saying this was an error in part selection. Sorry if I was not clear the first time.
If I had stainless rockers I am sure that something more critical may have gotten broken, like maybe a valve dropping a head into the cylinder. As far as I'm concerned I was actually something worse did not occur requiring a far more expensive fix than waht i am looking at now.
Anyway you slice it an engine should not be breaking itself at less than 1500 street driven miles.
Again this why I am saying this was an error in part selection. Sorry if I was not clear the first time.
If I had stainless rockers I am sure that something more critical may have gotten broken, like maybe a valve dropping a head into the cylinder. As far as I'm concerned I was actually something worse did not occur requiring a far more expensive fix than waht i am looking at now.
Anyway you slice it an engine should not be breaking itself at less than 1500 street driven miles.
The valve train was not functioning in a smooth motion. As per the report a surge and loft motion was taking place creating huge stress on the valve train components.
Was it parts selection or the wrong parts shipped by Jesel.
With SS rockers you would have ripped the pedestas out of the aluminum head.
Ron
Was it parts selection or the wrong parts shipped by Jesel.
With SS rockers you would have ripped the pedestas out of the aluminum head.
Ron
How can you blame Jesel for shipping parts the engine builder ordered?
The rocker arms were what was specified by MME, so if they were wrong for that application,
(Which nobody has said they were wrong. Jesel was given full specs of the cam and they said that the cam specs IN NO WAY EXCEEDED the capabilities of the the Pro Series Shaft Rockers.)
again wrong part selection. Again this would be the responsibility of the engine builder.
THE ROCKER ARMS WERE MOST DEFINITELY NOT THE REASON THINGS STARTED FALLING APART.
The rocker arms were what was specified by MME, so if they were wrong for that application,
(Which nobody has said they were wrong. Jesel was given full specs of the cam and they said that the cam specs IN NO WAY EXCEEDED the capabilities of the the Pro Series Shaft Rockers.)
again wrong part selection. Again this would be the responsibility of the engine builder.
THE ROCKER ARMS WERE MOST DEFINITELY NOT THE REASON THINGS STARTED FALLING APART.
Things? What broke besides the rocker arms?
The explanation from the examiner is why he thought they failed.
They failed #1 because there was only 1-1/2 threads left to go before the adjusting cup bottomed out and because of the way the threads are cut on it, at that point was expanding the aluminum in the tip of the rocker enough to begin a stress riser.
The tensile strength of a stainless steel arm is much greater. Probably enough to have prevented the stress riser from starting. This is a strength of materials class. That's all.
Were all of the rocker adjuster cups set at the same height including the ones that didn't break?
You have hydraulic lifters. The plus/minus on the centering the plunger on them is more then a couple of threads on the adjuster. They are not all going to be exactly the same.
You use the shaft/rockers to eliminate the need for guides. The bearing assembly in the arm eliminates sway. What slop in the assembly? The arms? Again the arms are the only thing that failed.
When he is talking about excessive accelleration, he is talking about the rate at which the valve is opening because of the rate of angle of the lifter lobe. This is a roller lifter cam. What is unusual about that? That's the benefit of a roller lifter. It can open and close faster then a standard lifter cam.
Does that cause oscillation? I guess.
It didn't last? It lasted plus or minus what any race valve train would.
Should it be in a street engine expected to last 100,000 miles? AH HAH. Inspector Cleseau says NO, NO. NO, I have solvead the crime!
Kato? Kato? Where are you, you swine?
The explanation from the examiner is why he thought they failed.
They failed #1 because there was only 1-1/2 threads left to go before the adjusting cup bottomed out and because of the way the threads are cut on it, at that point was expanding the aluminum in the tip of the rocker enough to begin a stress riser.
The tensile strength of a stainless steel arm is much greater. Probably enough to have prevented the stress riser from starting. This is a strength of materials class. That's all.
Were all of the rocker adjuster cups set at the same height including the ones that didn't break?
You have hydraulic lifters. The plus/minus on the centering the plunger on them is more then a couple of threads on the adjuster. They are not all going to be exactly the same.
You use the shaft/rockers to eliminate the need for guides. The bearing assembly in the arm eliminates sway. What slop in the assembly? The arms? Again the arms are the only thing that failed.
When he is talking about excessive accelleration, he is talking about the rate at which the valve is opening because of the rate of angle of the lifter lobe. This is a roller lifter cam. What is unusual about that? That's the benefit of a roller lifter. It can open and close faster then a standard lifter cam.
Does that cause oscillation? I guess.
It didn't last? It lasted plus or minus what any race valve train would.
Should it be in a street engine expected to last 100,000 miles? AH HAH. Inspector Cleseau says NO, NO. NO, I have solvead the crime!
Kato? Kato? Where are you, you swine?
Doug -
A) I do not have hydraulic lifters. I have mechanical roller lifters.
B)The rocker arms broke as a result of bad parts selection, lack of attention to detail and poor set up of the valve train. The breakage was a symptom, not a cause in and of itself.
The rocker arms themselves were not defective in material or workmanship. They have proven themselves in more severe applications when properly set up.
It should be pretty clear what the issues were that resulted in failure and it was NOT THE ROCKER ARMS THEMSELVES
A) I do not have hydraulic lifters. I have mechanical roller lifters.
B)The rocker arms broke as a result of bad parts selection, lack of attention to detail and poor set up of the valve train. The breakage was a symptom, not a cause in and of itself.
The rocker arms themselves were not defective in material or workmanship. They have proven themselves in more severe applications when properly set up.
It should be pretty clear what the issues were that resulted in failure and it was NOT THE ROCKER ARMS THEMSELVES
As Doug is trying to explain to you ... A CAM usually comes with recommended valve train parts PER THE MANUFACTURER for most applications ... I purchase materials every day and LATELTY everything is getting shipped wrong ...boxed wrong, packaged wrong. All I say its a possibilty ... but as you made your point in not the same words ..the engine builder should have checked all this, your correct.
Read between the lines ... all the parties involved are not going to give you a straight answer .. who did the report and who paid them to do it. Take it for what its worth and have Mel analyis it further.
The rocker arms were the reason things fell apart ..they broke ... but not the cause of the failure.
What you need to do is pull the motor and redo the valve train.
Read between the lines ... all the parties involved are not going to give you a straight answer .. who did the report and who paid them to do it. Take it for what its worth and have Mel analyis it further.
The rocker arms were the reason things fell apart ..they broke ... but not the cause of the failure.
What you need to do is pull the motor and redo the valve train.
Years and years ago a person could walk into a Shelby/Ford dealership and purchase a factory built race car and drive it home. My how times have changed?
The strange thing about it was that the only thing that was not really a race part was the engine.
Sure it was hotter then the regular Mustang GT BUT it was the same engine as supplied in the production Shelby GT350 street car. Why?
To avoid the inevitable hard feelings between the two parties, the buyer and the seller when the "super duper race engine" broke.
This certainly to me is a case in point. You have a race engine with all of the warts that go along with it. The reality is that even if you paid a "gazzillion dollars" for it and Jack Roush built it for you, at some point it is going to break. As the owner of it I would hope later rather then sooner, but it is inevitable.
To me the mistake here was made by both parties in that the buyer had no idea what the nature of this engine was going to be and the seller presumed that the buyer understood the nature of the engine he was getting.
The logic that I see is that if you don't like the risk inherent to the valve train in this type of engine, change it.
Bottom line is, ALL THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THE ROCKER ARMS BROKE. Blame it on the Bush Administration. Everything else is.
The strange thing about it was that the only thing that was not really a race part was the engine.
Sure it was hotter then the regular Mustang GT BUT it was the same engine as supplied in the production Shelby GT350 street car. Why?
To avoid the inevitable hard feelings between the two parties, the buyer and the seller when the "super duper race engine" broke.
This certainly to me is a case in point. You have a race engine with all of the warts that go along with it. The reality is that even if you paid a "gazzillion dollars" for it and Jack Roush built it for you, at some point it is going to break. As the owner of it I would hope later rather then sooner, but it is inevitable.
To me the mistake here was made by both parties in that the buyer had no idea what the nature of this engine was going to be and the seller presumed that the buyer understood the nature of the engine he was getting.
The logic that I see is that if you don't like the risk inherent to the valve train in this type of engine, change it.
Bottom line is, ALL THAT HAPPENED WAS THAT THE ROCKER ARMS BROKE. Blame it on the Bush Administration. Everything else is.
Exactly !
For the Forum Participants
As you can see still no response from those who shall remain nameless.
I hope you took the time to read the report for yourselves.
The latest is that the engine will be pulled within the next couple of weeks hopefully.
The word has gone out to the Jersey Panteras membership and I will try to pick a Saturday when the most members are available to help. It should only take a few hours to get the engine out.
I plan to re-spec the entire valve train. I have not decided at this point whether I will stay with a mechanical roller or change to a hydraulic roller set-up.
I will say given the overall poor attention to detail, cutting of corners, and the lack of checking whether things were set up correctly to begin with my plan is to thoroughly examine every aspect of the motor. I will be photographically documenting anything found.
If the engine ends up requiring a complete re-build I just hope I can have my car ready for next years CSD and other shows.
I am still absolutely blown away as to how an engine built by a quote "top builder" could require a complete rebuild with less than 1500 miles.
Thanks to all the people who showed support for my situation both publicly and privately.
I will keep you updated.
Chris Lewis
As you can see still no response from those who shall remain nameless.
I hope you took the time to read the report for yourselves.
The latest is that the engine will be pulled within the next couple of weeks hopefully.
The word has gone out to the Jersey Panteras membership and I will try to pick a Saturday when the most members are available to help. It should only take a few hours to get the engine out.
I plan to re-spec the entire valve train. I have not decided at this point whether I will stay with a mechanical roller or change to a hydraulic roller set-up.
I will say given the overall poor attention to detail, cutting of corners, and the lack of checking whether things were set up correctly to begin with my plan is to thoroughly examine every aspect of the motor. I will be photographically documenting anything found.
If the engine ends up requiring a complete re-build I just hope I can have my car ready for next years CSD and other shows.
I am still absolutely blown away as to how an engine built by a quote "top builder" could require a complete rebuild with less than 1500 miles.
Thanks to all the people who showed support for my situation both publicly and privately.
I will keep you updated.
Chris Lewis
.... and where is it going after that .... whos shop ? Most times engine builders will not touch anyone elses work ?
.... years ago it was possible to install hydraulic rollers on a solid cam ,, is that still possible ?
....1500 miles thats about the same milage in a MASTERS COMPETITION ?? LOL
.... years ago it was possible to install hydraulic rollers on a solid cam ,, is that still possible ?
....1500 miles thats about the same milage in a MASTERS COMPETITION ?? LOL
I have some suggestions on what to do with the unused mismatched parts but I'd hate to see them used on another MME motor
Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress Chris. I hope everything works out with the rebuild.
Until your next update,
Billy
#3382
Until your next update,
Billy
#3382
Ron Lombardo (accobra)- As usual your response is clearly an attempt to instigate and distort the situation.
There is no shortage of qualified local engine builders that are willing to take on this job, so no worries there.
I did say that I was going to re-spec the entire valve train, yes? I am assuming you can read, if only selectively.
If I go to a hydraulic roller set-up I will get a compatible cam ground and installed. It should have been clear to you but either you didn't read what I wrote or you are just looking to distort the conversation.
As for your comment about only getting 1500 miles, why is that funny? It is very apparent from your comments that you enjoy other people's misfortune.
Again I did not do ANYTHING wrong here.
I went with a builder whose reputation was good from everything I could research. When it came down to it they cut corners on the build leading to an early demise for the engine. Due to lack of customer service skills or really caring about their customers it became an issue that I shared with the forum so that other Pantera owners could be aware.
I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of, so why do you keep trying to push it back on me?
Maybe your answer will be something other than your usual sarcasm and sniping. If you have an answer that has some subtsance it is most welcome.
If your response is the usual sarcasm that we have come to expect from you here I am sure that the forum members will see it for what it is.
-Chris Lewis
There is no shortage of qualified local engine builders that are willing to take on this job, so no worries there.
I did say that I was going to re-spec the entire valve train, yes? I am assuming you can read, if only selectively.
If I go to a hydraulic roller set-up I will get a compatible cam ground and installed. It should have been clear to you but either you didn't read what I wrote or you are just looking to distort the conversation.
As for your comment about only getting 1500 miles, why is that funny? It is very apparent from your comments that you enjoy other people's misfortune.
Again I did not do ANYTHING wrong here.
I went with a builder whose reputation was good from everything I could research. When it came down to it they cut corners on the build leading to an early demise for the engine. Due to lack of customer service skills or really caring about their customers it became an issue that I shared with the forum so that other Pantera owners could be aware.
I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of, so why do you keep trying to push it back on me?
Maybe your answer will be something other than your usual sarcasm and sniping. If you have an answer that has some subtsance it is most welcome.
If your response is the usual sarcasm that we have come to expect from you here I am sure that the forum members will see it for what it is.
-Chris Lewis
Chris
Your limited intellegence is the reason you dont understand my statements.
Chris your pulling an expensive motor outside in a gravel driveway in New York at the begining of the winter ... give the car to a professional shop and let him fix it for you inside a shop .. other wise this situation is going to go on forever and you will never get to drive your car. Give the car to OLSEN or Cerralli ... you want intellegent conversation ..no sarcazm ..here it is !
Ron
Your limited intellegence is the reason you dont understand my statements.
Chris your pulling an expensive motor outside in a gravel driveway in New York at the begining of the winter ... give the car to a professional shop and let him fix it for you inside a shop .. other wise this situation is going to go on forever and you will never get to drive your car. Give the car to OLSEN or Cerralli ... you want intellegent conversation ..no sarcazm ..here it is !
Ron
Yikes! Do you guys drive by each others houses and shoot out the windows too?
I was going to bring my hoist but maybe I should bring a gun?
Chris seriously. Are you going to pull the engine on an unpaved driveway? I hope that is a joke?
The hoist, at least mine would be fully extended to reach the sucker and you are going to need to roll the hoist back on a good concrete slab. The wheels are cast iron and you would wind up bending the legs and maybe tipping the hoist.
Wait? Your engine is all aluminum? No problem then. Six guys lots of beer and pizza. Who needs a hoist?
I was going to bring my hoist but maybe I should bring a gun?
Chris seriously. Are you going to pull the engine on an unpaved driveway? I hope that is a joke?
The hoist, at least mine would be fully extended to reach the sucker and you are going to need to roll the hoist back on a good concrete slab. The wheels are cast iron and you would wind up bending the legs and maybe tipping the hoist.
Wait? Your engine is all aluminum? No problem then. Six guys lots of beer and pizza. Who needs a hoist?