MODULAR OR BUST!

resto,

I have no hands on experience "hot rodding" or "swapping" the modular V8s, but I can share a bit of info to get you going.

FRPP is offering a 5.0 liter 400 bhp 4 cam mod motor as a crate motor at $14,995. A 4.6 liter 305 bhp mod motor is offered as a crate motor at only $5,200.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/home/home.asp

A Kenne Bell supercharger is one of the more successful ways to increase the output of these motors, the kits are well engineered, install easily, are compact and look oem.

http://www.kennebell.net

There are ways to boost output through tuning as well, as the 4 cammers are known to be capable of 100 bhp per liter naturally aspirated

Steve Wilkinson (562) 634-3434; and Collectors Choice Ltd (608) 849-9878; are 2 vendors who have experience with mod motor installations.

With the popularity of Mustangs soaring, I'm sure there are engine builders in your area who could share their thoughts on how best to hot rod the cammers as well. I'll offer this one bit of advice: Avoid the engine builders who don't return phone calls or who are reluctant to give you any time discussing your options, because they would treat you the same way as a customer. You don't need that in your life.

I for one would appreciate it if you shared what you learn as your project progresses, perhaps some pics at various stages, etc.

Good luck.

Your friend on the PIBB, George

Mark I'm curious, why do you specify the '03 heads? What factors made you abandon the mod motor?

Your engine bay is "automotive sex" by the way, beautiful.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:

03 head large port heads and great with superchargers.

I can get the same if not more with a 392W engine for power with less money.

Mark - What kind of price are you talking about for a 392? Care to share engine specs and HP predictions?

I'm currently building a 4.6 DOHC engine.
Sean Hyland Motorsports is an excellent source for parts and info.
SHM website

buy his book
4.6L Ford Engines

This book lists all of the differences in parts for all 4.6L variants and states which parts are best.
You don't need the 03 cobra heads, they're not that much better than the 99-02 heads, not anything that a minor port job couldn't exceed. Anyhow, the book states flow numbers and is very informative

The 4.6 is an awesome engine and is a perfect fit for the Pantera!

It is a perfect starting point for a performance build. It doesn't have the short comings of the Cleveland. The Cleveland has a weak block and is just plain old technology. the 4.6 aluminum block from 93 to 99 can be prepped to take as much as 1500 horsepower according to SHM. The newer 00 to 02 blocks are good for apx 900 HP, and the 03 to 04 blocks are Iron and are strong as well. It's easy to get these blocks, heads, and the forged steel crank. I have 2 forged steel cranks and paid apx $250 a piece after shipping.

The biggest weak link for these engines is the connecting rods. The 03 and 04 cobra engine comes stock with Manley H beam rods. You can buy these rods for $500 and they're good for over 700 HP.

Anyhow, don't give up on this engine. It's nothing to be scared of and will be much more rewarding and impressive than an old shrimp boat engine (that should raise some hate and discontent)

Nate

Hey! them's fightin' words.

shrimp boat engine indeed! Huh!

Truthfully Nate, my desire to build up the Cleveland in my Pantera stems from my desire to keep the engine looking oem (modify the innards only) and because I have a garage & den full of Cleveland parts. Plus I know I can achieve the engine I want with it, i.e. reliable, powerful, yet docile & smooth running. I don't expect anyone else to share my decision, and I support whatever path each owner chooses to take. I'm sure a mod motor can be built to provide the same neck snapping powerband a 7 liter Windsor crate motor has.

I would be most interested to read what problems you run into & how you resolve them, more details about your engine as time goes on, photos, what ever you'd be willing to share. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the mod motors & would love to learn more.

nice name by the way, my oldest son is a Nate.

your youthfully challenged friend on the PIBB, George

Whoa... nice bay, Mark! I can almost hear it...

I agree with George in the 'to each his own' attitude. Variety is what makes our Panteras desirable works of personal art! We're all just taking different avenues to the same destination. It gives each of us something new to learn.

Michael

But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

Lol Haha. I have to agree with Cyboman on that one. Even though I am quote "part of the tuner generation" due to my age- I am still far from being 'for' that garbage. If what DeTom mentioned was actually done I believe that would be the demise of the Pantera...

As far as mod motors go- that's kinda my forte.

Restoman- if you have decided to go modular look for a 4.6L Mustang Cobra motor. Make sure it's used and in working condition to save you some dough. Next have that thing bored to a 5.0L "Big Bore" motor. You can leave the heads pretty much alone other than maybe some polishing to clean them up a bit. Then add some 1/2" fuel rails, a 42lb injector, and a blower running between 14 and 19lbs of boost. On the Pantera you'd have to go roots style because I'm not sure of the fit for an S-Trim. (Some of the guys might be able to comment on that) Either way, you are looking at well over 500hp. If you want I can get you more build info for those motors.

(Note: the motor I described along with some added Mustang specific parts is making 620hp on a friends '98 Cobra)

MC '72,

Make that a Kenne Bell blower, which is an "auotrotor" blower, significantly different than a Roots or Eaton type blower. I think once you see their kits, you'll be sold.

None of the centrifugal blowers (i.e. Vortech)are going to fit on the front (or side) of the motor.

Go for the cammer, rock n roll! When do I get a ride?

your friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
You got me there, DeTom! I doubt I would be, but it certainly would be interesting to see the finished project! I'm sure it may even open the Pantera door to a whole new generation of tuners. I, however, am not part of that generation.

Michael

Yeah I will be dead by then too. There is a bright side to getting old and dieing after all.

Motorcity72, you have some interesting points but I don't quite agree with your philosophy. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything like that because like George stated, everyone's ideas and buildups are valid and a work of art.

But, there's no reason to buy a running engine and pay that extra cash if you're just going to disassemble it and resleeve it for 3.7" pistons to get to 5.0L. These engines use torque to yield fasteners and they are a one time use item that must be replaced when you untorque them. You'd end up spending allot of $ on top of the big bore kit. If you're going to pay the extra cash for a running engine, don't open it up, just put the blower on it as it is.

If you are going to open it, or build one from a parts engine like I'm doing. There's no real point in looking for a Cobra. The Lincoln Mark VIII engine is nearly identical (less the forged steel crank) to the 96-98 Cobra engine. The cast crank is still good to over 500hp according to SHM. So get one of these engines and buy a forged steel crank and some of the newer 99-03 heads.

Also, I don't see the point in putting a big bore kit in it if you're putting a blower on it. The guys with the 03/04 cobras are changing pulleys, throttle bodies and other external parts and getting well over 500 HP at the rear wheels. This is according to my Dyno guy. With blower upgrades and head work they are getting over 600 HP at the wheels.

I'm building a twin turbo setup with T3/T4 hybrid turbos and I'm shooting for a measly 600HP. I'm running a Mark VIII block (93-98 Mk VIII and 96-99 Cobra blocks are the strongest stock blocks) a cobra forged steel crank, Manley Pro Series I beam rods, JE pistons 8.5:1 comp ratio, 2002 cobra heads (99-04 have the single intake runner per cylinder, 93-98 have two runners per cylinder), coil on plugs, and a bunch of other little do-dads.

With the deep skirt block and the 4 bolt main caps with cross bolts these things are bullet proof!

Your friends setup sounds like a hot ticket though. I'm not sure if any blower that uses a belt differing from the 03/04 cobra's super charger belt will fit in a Pantera. From the pictures I've seen, there's only 1/4" clearance with the 03/04 cobras blower.

Just my observations on everything, and that doesn't mean it's correct or the only way.

Nate

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

Hold on there, Detom.

I'll take a Honda F1 motor.

22inch wheels won't fit a Pantera, but if they did....you'd see them.

A switch operated, adjustable-height, bladder-type air suspension on a Pantera would be very, very cool. Drop the car to an insanely low height when you're able... very cool.

Kevin

Kevin,

That suspension was offered by Hall Pantera a few years back. I'm not sure if it's still available, and it may have been for the front only. You could raise the cars height for driveways and speedbumps, lower it to the ground for a static car show display, or put it at ride height somewhere in the middle to drive.

Michael

Very, very clean looking Mark.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Engine now

Hall sells a set of shocks that raise and lower the front end for getting over speed bumps and up & down driveways. I'm sure with a little modification you can make them bounce

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
But Cyboman, would you be as supportive and understanding if someone was asking how best to fit in a Honda motor and to fitt 22" wheels and tires?? How about if they ask how to install one of those hydraulic suspensions that make the car jump up and down???

I think a Pantera should have a Cleveland. But that's just me.

Matt Merritt
#2171

quote:

Originally posted by Matt_M:
I think a Pantera should have a Cleveland. But that's just me.

Matt Merritt
#2171

What about a Windsor?

Matt, I'm laughing at myself right now. You said in 2 sentences what has taken me several very long posts!

Here's one for you Matt, your friend on the PIBB, George

Coz, I might do that some day. I don't know what others think but I like Halls stuff and have bought a bunch of it over the years. I really like Gary and Bev. I think they are great folks.

Hi Kevin:

I wouldn't put a Windsor engine in a Pantera for the same reason I wouldn't do a Chevy V8 conversion on an XKE.

Matt Merritt
#2171

Matt, what do you think of the 400? I kind of feel the same way which is why I wanted to go with the 400. It is still the same series of block, kind of a "Super Clevland".

Gary

Hi Gary:

Here's where I start looking for George...

MM

So, you must need a long winded, social philosopher, bag of hot air response for Gary! I'm your man! LOL....

Guys, if you see moderator Mark coming, run and hide. I think we've hijacked this topic. It was supposed to be about the mod motor! LOL...

your "touchy-feely" friend on the PIBB, George

Ah, we can start our own topic. It is still in the relm of Modular opinions. George, I forgot, why were you going to talk me out of the 400?

Best reguards,
Gary

It is still interesting to see what other people's opinions are. Actually, my dad has an XKE with a V12. I would never do that. I think the V12 goes in the XKE and is a wwork of art. I would never want to work on a V12 unless that was my ONLY car and I never planned on working on another car. That's why I don't have a Jag. I like them, I am just not going to work on them, nor would I put a V8 in it. That being said, it weighs a couple hundred lbs less and is by far more powerful!

Gary

The 351C is not the only engine that came stock in a Pantera. The very last of the GT5-S's came with a 351W in them (I believe they were sourced from a truck).

And of course, we all know that the Si's came with fuel injected 5.0L Mustang motors in them.

Michael

Gary,

the 400 was not a popular "hot rod" engine when I was doing that sort of thing. Even though almost every part from a Cleveland interchanges. Strange huh? But that was my reasoning, you hop up Clevelands, not 400s. It was a mind set I acquired from the 70s & 80s. From my point of view you were thinking "out of the box" to choose the 400 for your Pantera, and I applaud that. Currently, the 393/427 Windsors, the 4.6 mod motors and the occaisional 385 series engine are the popular transplant engines for Panteras. But, like I wrote a moment ago, almost ever part of the Cleveland interchanges with the 400. What an inexpensive way to "stroke" you 351C. Buy a 400 at the wrecking yard, rebuild the short block, bolt on your Cleveland heads, cam, intake (with spacers), oil pan, oil pump, flywheel, balancer, distributor, water pump. And if you want to stroke a 400, 351W cranks drop straight in. Now all you need to contend with are the bell housing, motor mounts & exhaust, which are no more difficult than the 385 conversion. and if a person finds an fmx block, even the bellhousing is the same!

Now, the flip side of the coin, in general, the closer to stock a Pantera is, the more desireable it is to many buyers. And "if" the Pantera ever becomes popular with collectors and starts climbing in value, then the stock cars will climb in value faster. Many people feel like Matt, a Jag engine belongs in a Jag, a Ferrari motor belongs in a Ferrari, and a Cleveland belongs in the Pantera. Its part of the character of the car.

But one of the major differences between a Pantera & other classic Italian sports cars, modifying Panteras is OK within our family of owners. Do so with another marque and you'd be ostracized. With a Pantera, everyone embraces your modifications with comments like "cool", "good job", perhaps even "bitchen". The concourse car & the modified car can sit comfortably next to one another at a show. As long as we continue to accept one another this way, we will continue to have the "best" family of owners among the various marques, my personal opinion, of course.

We also tend to endlessly debate these topics on the PIBB! LOL

Matt, was that enough hot air for you?

your venerable friend on the PIBB, George

quote:

We also tend to endlessly debate these topics on the PIBB! LOL

That's fun though. The nice thing is I will have 2 engines when done. I will always be able to put the Cleveland back in. I will probably get the cleveland set up as a "swap engine" should I have a problem with this one.

George, I have always thought the 400 would have been a more popular "hop up" engine if it had fit between the shock towers in a Mustang!

Gary

Gary,

I look forward to your completed 400 project. I can't wait to see how it looks in the engine bay, and how it performs.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:


But one of the major differences between a Pantera & other classic Italian sports cars, modifying Panteras is OK within our family of owners. Do so with another marque and you'd be ostracized. With a Pantera, everyone embraces your modifications with comments like "cool", "good job", perhaps even "bitchen". The concourse car & the modified car can sit comfortably next to one another at a show. As long as we continue to accept one another this way, we will continue to have the "best" family of owners among the various marques, my personal opinion, of course.

your venerable friend on the PIBB, George

Well said. And right on target.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Gary,

I look forward to your completed 400 project. I can't wait to see how it looks in the engine bay, and how it performs.

Michael

Thanks Me too. I have a couple projects going on right now. When the engine gets here it will be installed. At a latter date, when I am ahead of some of my other projects, I am going to start a full resto on either this one (#1905) or the other one(#1280). Not sure yet. Before I start the restoration I need to finish the mgb, and do some engine work to the TA.

Gary

can you say "gear head"?

George

quote:

Originally posted by Matt_M:
Hi Kevin:

I wouldn't put a Windsor engine in a Pantera for the same reason I wouldn't do a Chevy V8 conversion on an XKE.

Matt Merritt
#2171

Matt,
That analogy sucks. Sorry

Windsors and Cleves are in the same family. Jaguar and Chebby engines aren't.

Though an argument can be said that Ford and Jag engines are now in the same family since Ford own Jaguar!

So a Ford V8 conversion on an XKE would be "bitchen"!!


Kevin

What could have been a good thread has turned into nothing more than a session for everyone to pat each others on the back. Nothing technical here that's for sure....

pantera 2023,

Well then it looks like it was a bust.

Michael

Nate,

If you go back and reread the thread, you'll find there was technical info supplied, alot of it by you! There were also links posted to find more information from people who specialize in Mod motors.

Out of all the Panteras, only a relative few have Mod motor conversions, so we are not the experts to provide the technical depth you were hoping to see.

Since you're doing a Mod motor build-up, you may be on the forefront of this knowledge when you're done. You may become the Mod motor go to guy on the PIBB!

Michael

For those of you who really want Ford mod-motor technical advice, my suggestion is to post some topics on those discussion boards.

I post on a few of the boards where I've met some of the moderators. The sites listed below have people in contact with NHRA, Livernois Motorsports, Ford SVT, etc. All very knowledgeable in the mod-motor field. Just check out some of the project cars and ask about them.
=>www.stangnet.com
=>www.stangpro.com
=>the cobra corral site- dont remember the site addy off hand.